Using the terms "left" and "right" when comparing two very different countries isn't an honest argument.
We're talking Ray here. Like Conn and Patrick unable to defend the current "left"
Ray if you're up to it please defend the latest cap and trade tax passed by Pelosi and company? Really, would like to know how a tax on everything will help stimulate the economy.
I'm curious to see how they are going to defend the middle class tax hike which is all but guaranteed to be coming to pay for universal health care. Remember--Obama promised no tax hike for middle America. News also says Obama is in favor of taxing heath benefits as earned income. Whoops--another campaign promise gone.
quote
"I pledge that under my plan, no one making less than $250,000 a year will see any type of tax increase," Obama told a crowd in Dover, N.H., last year. "Not income tax, not capital gains taxes, not any kind of tax." At the time, his Republican rival, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., was proposing a tax on health benefits similar to the plan Obama is now considering. Just a year ago, Obama spent millions on campaign commercials attacking the idea. One ad accused McCain of favoring "taxing health benefits for the first time ever ... taxing health care instead of fixing it. We can't afford John McCain."
And how do they defend the news that Obama is expected any day to make a decision whether to sign an executive order enabling some GTMO detainees to be under arrest "indefinitely--without charges" after the libs here railed against Bush doing the same thing.
They'll say something witty like "it's supposed to taste like a sh*t sandwich." Which fits, I suppose since Obama's doing his dead level best to flush this country down the toilet like last night's Taco Bell.
Using the terms "left" and "right" when comparing two very different countries isn't an honest argument.
they are still rateable on a progressive vs regressive basis the iran godboys want [much like our own godboys] a rule based on god's laws with a very big over lap in their thou shall nots list they are very in favor of the old ways of doing things and want the government to censor ideas, books music film ect
are they exactly alike no but they do have far more in common then our rightwing will ever admit
anyway the main point was the iran nuts are not leftwing nuts the green band guys marching and getting shot are somewhat progressive and the mullias and their gov thugs are very rightwing
We're talking Ray here. Like Conn and Patrick unable to defend the current "left"
Ray if you're up to it please defend the latest cap and trade tax passed by Pelosi and company? Really, would like to know how a tax on everything will help stimulate the economy.
I have not seen a good review of the 1200 page law yet but suppect the lobbyists and pork intrests have loaded it with junk
but do know the economy would not need stimulation if voodoo had worked EVER!!!!!!!! but it didnot work and our economy is a train wreck thanks to the very very bad leadership of the neo-conned SO SHUT UP AND GIVE THE OTHERSIDE A CHANCE YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE AND GUESS WHAT YOUR GUYS FAILED TOTALLY AND VERY COMPLETELY
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07:34 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27105 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
I have not seen a good review of the 1200 page law yet but suppect the lobbyists and pork intrests have loaded it with junk
but do know the economy would not need stimulation if voodoo had worked EVER!!!!!!!! but it didnot work and our economy is a train wreck thanks to the very very bad leadership of the neo-conned SO SHUT UP AND GIVE THE OTHERSIDE A CHANCE YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE AND GUESS WHAT YOUR GUYS FAILED TOTALLY AND VERY COMPLETELY
Oh, for christsake...
Give them time to do WHAT? Quadruple the national debt, instead of just tripling it? Find a way to do WORSE than collapse the housing market under CRA, Fannie Mae/FreddieMac efforts, which were done by Democrats? Too late, that pooch is already screwed. Monetize the debt, thereby causing hyper-inflation? Yeah, now THERE'S a good plan that hasn't been tried before. Oh, wait, didn't we have hyperinflation under another Democratic-controlled government (Carter)?
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07:57 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
I must have missed that Gitmo was closed..when did that happen?
We are leaving Irag? didn't he plan on sending in another 30,000 troops.
The stimulus is working? News to me. Unemployment has been increasing and more industries are laying people off. The stimulus has helped out GM their sales are dropping, Chrysler sold off to Fiat. Deficit spending gone wild. Many brueacratic czars appointed to oversee other appointed czars. Looks to me like an economic collapes is on the horizon. Not to worry, "no tax increase for those making less than $250,000 per year" Do you really believe that?
This is why no one ever posts an opposing view point on here, the character assassination and overwhelming anti Obama group make it like arguing with a brick wall (you have to admit anti Obama is 10x more than the anti bush group ever was from my view point).
I agree. I was about as anti-bush as it got, just short of wearing it on a tshirt... But I never jumped in any threads to purposely derail them when the original poster CLEARLY stated to keep it civil and on topic
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08:42 PM
WhiteDevil88 Member
Posts: 8518 From: Coastal California Registered: Mar 2007
I have not seen a good review of the 1200 page law yet but suppect the lobbyists and pork intrests have loaded it with junk
but do know the economy would not need stimulation if voodoo had worked EVER!!!!!!!! but it didnot work and our economy is a train wreck thanks to the very very bad leadership of the neo-conned SO SHUT UP AND GIVE THE OTHERSIDE A CHANCE YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE AND GUESS WHAT YOUR GUYS FAILED TOTALLY AND VERY COMPLETELY
Really? Carter failed in just 4 years. "Voodoo" worked for over 30 years until politicians started meddling with it. Clinton would have killed if Hillary had gotten her pet project of health care through. Even at that the tech bubble rebounded pretty quickly without gov't intervention What we have now would be the same as the gov't bailing out Pets.com and other tech companies in the late 90s.. Bush did nothing and things worked themselves out Obama and Co threw a trillion dollars at GM and Chrysler and in the end they still went bankrupt .. Tell me again who's the bigger idiot.
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09:42 PM
PFF
System Bot
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
History will makes it's judgment of Obama's administration. What's really funny is - these are rayb's golden years. Obama in the White House, Democrat majority in Congress - truly this is as good as ray's life will ever get.
No wonder he's bitter.
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09:54 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27105 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
I agree. I was about as anti-bush as it got, just short of wearing it on a tshirt... But I never jumped in any threads to purposely derail them when the original poster CLEARLY stated to keep it civil and on topic
Ryan, perhaps you could have a chat with rayb, and try to see if he'd be interested at staying on topic, rather than dredging up his "voodoo BIG LIE neocon" mantra?
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10:40 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Someone please tell me besides Clinton, who got to run against Bob Dull, when was the last time a Dem got to serve a second term? Seems that the country puts them in once in a while to keep the Republicans honest, but four years is usually more than enough time for them to really screw things up, so we show them the door.
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11:14 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Does LBJ count? He was JFK's VP. He finished JFK's term, and then was re-elected.
Before that, Harry Truman was elected twice, and Franklin Roosevelt was elected 4 times. I stopped looking after that.
1948? Sound like maybe 60 years. I think the country was still in mourning in 64 when LBJ got elected. After his bad handling of the war and raiding SS for his "Great Society", he had no chance to get elected twice.
1948? Sound like maybe 60 years. I think the country was still in mourning in 64 when LBJ got elected. After his bad handling of the war and raiding SS for his "Great Society", he had no chance to get elected twice.
You kinda have that right. Way back when, SS was "untouchable". That fund could ONLY be used for Social Security. LBJ knew congress, and the American people would never allow him to take money from that fund to finance the stepped up bombing and increased aircraft carrier presence he wanted to do in Vietnam, so, he concoted this plan to "publicly" use the funds for The Great Society, which he got thru congress ok--except, he actually used a great deal of those monies to finance the war. When he declined to run for another term, and Nixon went into the White House, Nixon just continued doing what LBJ had been doing all along.
Ryan, perhaps you could have a chat with rayb, and try to see if he'd be interested at staying on topic, rather than dredging up his "voodoo BIG LIE neocon" mantra?
if you stop telling big lies I will stop call the lies what they are if you stop talking about how great tax cuts work when we know it was voodoo and how did I go off topic when you brought up carter and inflation??
btw this topic is do demo's like obama not do the neo-conned hate him so what are you doing even posting in this thread as all your posts here are off topic!!!!!!!
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
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01:42 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27105 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
if you stop telling big lies I will stop call the lies what they are if you stop talking about how great tax cuts work when we know it was voodoo and how did I go off topic when you brought up carter and inflation??
pffff-heh heh heh. Yeah...OK.
quote
btw this topic is do demo's like obama not do the neo-conned hate him so what are you doing even posting in this thread as all your posts here are off topic!!!!!!!
Just answering you. OK, I'm done. Back to Obama, folks...
Voodoo hmmmm, Wasn't JFK notorious for that? errr, I mean supply side economics. The big lie is when people that don't understand the most simple of economic concepts claim it didn't work.
Let's change the question to intelligent people that support Obama, are you happy?
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03:05 AM
hklvette Member
Posts: 1439 From: Roanoke, VA Registered: Nov 2007
Well, I think there are some out there that might put forth a decent point or two but RayB with his usual blind partisanship big lie bs pretty much ruined it for everybody.
I don't think every idea that the O has put forth is necessarily all that bad but more that the timing is terrible. I am going to stop short of making any points for them though.
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11:47 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
if you stop telling big lies I will stop call the lies what they are if you stop talking about how great tax cuts work when we know it was voodoo and how did I go off topic when you brought up carter and inflation??
btw this topic is do demo's like obama not do the neo-conned hate him so what are you doing even posting in this thread as all your posts here are off topic!!!!!!!
And none of your posts have addressed ANYTHING I originally asked when starting the thread. You waited 4 days before posting in this thread, and when you did you wanted to talk about Iran and the CIA.
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12:40 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Its the next week and still no ones stated ONE thing Obamas done that is good for the country. I didnt really hate Obama when he was running, because like a lot of people I halfway believed everything he said. Not enough to vote for him though. So far Ive yet to see anything he promised / didnt promise come to pass yet. Now I think hes a typical lying politician. He even lies about his smoking.
And none of your posts have addressed ANYTHING I originally asked when starting the thread. You waited 4 days before posting in this thread, and when you did you wanted to talk about Iran and the CIA.
D B Cooper went to the iran election in the second post in this thread then 2.5 asked a question that I answered about iran answering members questions is NOT hijacking a thread
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
Voodoo hmmmm, Wasn't JFK notorious for that? errr, I mean supply side economics. The big lie is when people that don't understand the most simple of economic concepts claim it didn't work.
Let's change the question to intelligent people that support Obama, are you happy?
supply side BS was started in 1975 long after JFK
no the voodoo is a quote from pop bush when he was runing against ronnie raygun in 1980 primary's
in fact rayguns tax cut FAILED to produce more income for the government
''Critics of "Reaganomics" claim it failed to produce much of the exaggerated gains some supply-siders had promised. Krugman later summarized the situation: "When Ronald Reagan was elected, the supply-siders got a chance to try out their ideas. Unfortunately, they failed." Although he credited supply-side economics for being more successful than monetarism which he claimed "left the economy in ruins", he stated that supply-side economics produced results which fell "so far short of what it promised," describing the supply-side theory as "free lunches". [23] Krugman and other critics point to increased budget deficits during the Reagan administration as proof that the Laffer Curve is wrong. Supply-side advocates claim that revenues increased, but that spending increased faster. However, they typically point to total revenues[24] even though it was only income taxes rates that were cut. [25] That table also does not account for inflation. For example, of the increase from $600.6 billion in 1983 to $666.5 billion in 1984, $26 billion is due to inflation, $18.3 billion to corporate taxes and $21.4 billion to social insurance revenues (mostly FICA taxes). [26] Income tax revenues in constant dollars decreased by $2.77 billion in that year. Supply-siders cannot legitimately take credit for increased FICA tax revenue, because in 1983 FICA tax rates were increased from 6.7% to 7% and the ceiling was raised by $2,100. For the self employed, the FICA tax rate went from 9.35% to 14%. [27] The FICA tax rate increased throughout Reagan's term, jumping to 7.51% in 1988 and the ceiling was raised by 61% through Reagan's two terms. Those tax hikes on wage earners, along with inflation, are the source of the revenue gains of the early 1980s.[28]''
if you wade thru the numbers you see the ''gains'' were from more SS tax and inflation not more income tax from growth in short smoke and mirrors = voodoo pop bush was right
BuSh2's rerun tax cuts have also failed and with the recession/depression that BuSh2 caused any future projections are out the window now too
the rights spin machine is trying hard to blame obama for crimes of the GOP before he was elected but I guess they just can not admit they FAILED so must try to blame someone else ------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 06-29-2009).]
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03:08 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
D B Cooper went to the iran election in the second post in this thread then 2.5 asked a question that I answered about iran answering members questions is NOT hijacking a thread
You still have NOTHING to add to the topic of the thread, but keep posting. All you care about is stirring up your own bucket of shiat so you have something to throw all over the forum.
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06:15 PM
partfiero Member
Posts: 6923 From: Tucson, Arizona Registered: Jan 2002
the rights spin machine is trying hard to blame obama for crimes of the GOP before he was elected but I guess they just can not admit they FAILED so must try to blame someone else
After your guy brings down this country with his unbelievable spending, and you are looking in the trash for a bite to eat, do cuss the right for putting you in that dumpster.
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07:12 PM
PFF
System Bot
fierobear Member
Posts: 27105 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by ray b: ''Critics of "Reaganomics" claim it failed to produce much of the exaggerated gains some supply-siders had promised. Krugman later summarized the situation: "When Ronald Reagan was elected, the supply-siders got a chance to try out their ideas. Unfortunately, they failed." Although he credited supply-side economics for being more successful than monetarism which he claimed "left the economy in ruins", he stated that supply-side economics produced results which fell "so far short of what it promised," describing the supply-side theory as "free lunches". [23] Krugman and other critics point to increased budget deficits during the Reagan administration as proof that the Laffer Curve is wrong. Supply-side advocates claim that revenues increased, but that spending increased faster. However, they typically point to total revenues[24] even though it was only income taxes rates that were cut. [25] That table also does not account for inflation. For example, of the increase from $600.6 billion in 1983 to $666.5 billion in 1984, $26 billion is due to inflation, $18.3 billion to corporate taxes and $21.4 billion to social insurance revenues (mostly FICA taxes). [26] Income tax revenues in constant dollars decreased by $2.77 billion in that year. Supply-siders cannot legitimately take credit for increased FICA tax revenue, because in 1983 FICA tax rates were increased from 6.7% to 7% and the ceiling was raised by $2,100. For the self employed, the FICA tax rate went from 9.35% to 14%. [27] The FICA tax rate increased throughout Reagan's term, jumping to 7.51% in 1988 and the ceiling was raised by 61% through Reagan's two terms. Those tax hikes on wage earners, along with inflation, are the source of the revenue gains of the early 1980s.[28]''
That's because Krugman is of the Keynes school of economics. Keynes is crap.
"Keynes. It's nonsense. He's like a witch doctor in medicine. You can't follow Keynes. Keynes didn't understand Economics."
I donot see spin in the numbers by any group I do see that ronny raygun increased the SS tax twice in fact 6.7 to 7.0 to 7.51% on payroll [remember those are really doubled] and 9.35 to 14% for self employed so that was a big chunk of the increase in fed's income then add in inflation and CORPs taxes and total individual income tax payments WENT DOWN NOT UP under your supply side BS plan I know the neo-conned do not like facts that dispute their fairytales but those are the facts your plan FAILED
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
After your guy brings down this country with his unbelievable spending, and you are looking in the trash for a bite to eat, do cuss the right for putting you in that dumpster.
I do know who wrecked the system and when and why sorry but the guy is BuSh2
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10:16 PM
partfiero Member
Posts: 6923 From: Tucson, Arizona Registered: Jan 2002
I do know who wrecked the system and when and why sorry but the guy is BuSh2
Only in your mind. Bush by signing every piece of legislation the Dems put up injured the patient. But your guy with his CRAZY spending tied a block of cement to his leg and threw him into the water. The difference between you and I: I will blame anyone who is at fault, you won't. Your left eye is blind.
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10:27 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I do know who wrecked the system and when and why sorry but the guy is BuSh2
You have also watched video of Democrats fighting against increased regulation and oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and then said it was the Republican's fault. What you "know" has no resemblance to this reality or any other.
You call people liars. You whine about conspiracy and evil Republicans.
All I have to do is watch the actual news and video of Democrats in action to know you're wrong. It's on the public record.
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11:04 PM
Jun 30th, 2009
fierobear Member
Posts: 27105 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by Formula88: You have also watched video of Democrats fighting against increased regulation and oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and then said it was the Republican's fault. What you "know" has no resemblance to this reality or any other.
You call people liars. You whine about conspiracy and evil Republicans.
All I have to do is watch the actual news and video of Democrats in action to know you're wrong. It's on the public record.
how does that send manufacturing jobs overseas? how does that sink GM? yes, I see how it affected the mortage crunch - but thats done & over with already
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10:06 AM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19850 From: Clarendon Twp., MI Registered: May 2004
Manufacturing jobs left this country due to the buying habits of the American people (wanting low-cost merchandise) and the rise of the 401(k) (forcing companies to show quarterly profits to keep stock values up).
Simply put, the compensation packages of the American workforce are too high, and many of our products do not compete price-wise with the imported items. When companies are pressured to show a profit every quarter, the only thing that can be controlled is the labor cost component.
rayb - have you ever considered that the government needs to be SMALLER and operate on LESS money, and work to STIMULATE the PRIVATE sector of the economy? Job growth is the key to keeping our economic engine running.
Another point - who was the genius in the Oval Office that pushed to eliminate immigration quotas?
