I honestly wonder how many Obama supporters look at what he's done and is planning to do and think "this is great! America is heading in the right direction. These are the changes I wanted."
Or are they just happy that Bush is out of office and Republicans don't like Obama?

So far the only non-partisan talking point I've been able to get out of a Democrat was "it's too early to tell."

So, feel free to reply, but please don't make it flame fest, although I know that's where it will end up.
How about, for as long as we can, a civil discussion about what you like about what Obama is doing and why?

Do you like his choice of Sotomayer for the SCOTUS?
Do you think his budget and stimulus plans are working?
Are you concerned about the deficit?
What do you like about his domestic policies?
Do you think he's keeping the promises he made during the campaign?
Is he turning out to be the president you wanted when you voted for him?

Let's try to avoid talking point, please. Saying you think it's great because he'll make the rich pay their fair share doesn't say much. But if you think increasing capital gains taxes is a good idea, please let me know and why.

We all agree that we want a secure country, good jobs, good pay, quality health care, affordable housing, etc.
The differences between Republicans and Democrats are how we think it's best to get those things.
For this thread at least, I'm not trying to argue who's right and who's wrong. I would like to understand your point of view.

Obama has talked about putting aside differences to bring all parties to the table to talk out our differences. Is that possible on a global scale? Let's see if we can manage it on a car forum first.

------------------

I can say I agree with Obama's 'mum's the word' approach to Iran.

Though it would seem like speaking out against the current regieme is a no-brainer; You have to keep in mind two things.
1) there isn't any real difference between Achmediniwhackjob and the guy who fathered their nuclear weapons program. They both report to the same ayatola.
2) The USA is the 'great satan' in Iran; whatever the US president speaks out in favor of then has 2 strikes against it in Iran.

What's happening over there is terrible; but there isn't anything that can be done about it. Condemning the killing of peaceful protesters without actually endorsing their cause is about as much as we can do.

Agreeing to negotiate with their regime (under either "president") is IMO just lending credibility to an illigitimate dictatorship. I continue to believe he's got that part wrong.


Not that I voted for him last year or would vote for him now if it was election day... but I finally found something I feel he's handled relatively well.
I kinda wonder how those 85% of the Jewish Americans who voted for Obama feel about their choice in light of recent events.

.

quote Originally posted by D B Cooper: What's happening over there is terrible; but there isn't anything that can be done about it. Condemning the killing of peaceful protesters without actually endorsing their cause is about as much as we can do. .

Why can't we endorse that they want a legitimate election, and not to be persecuted for thinking so.

I don't understand how Iran can NOT think that the world is watching and does not approve of opression, but what they can do is make sure they do know by telling them. (They being the world, not just the U.S.)

?

I voted for Obama.

I never supported any bailouts. I do like that he closed Gitmo, but at the same time I don't know what can be done with the 'inmates' given that they weren't captured with due process in mind. I wouldn't want to be put in the position to make that call either, so I can sympathize.

I do like that we're leaving Iraq. I do like that we shifted our attention to Afghanistan. At the same time I am worried that the only options available for Afghanistan are perpetual occupation or falling to extremists.

I am greatly concerned about the deficit.

I do think the stimulus plan(s) is/are working. I have hands in both real estate and retail sales, and both are up up up from Q1 2009.

He's not perfect, but I would still take him over McCain (or worse - Palin!) But I would have preferred to see president Paul.

They are using some stimulus money for the Tesla car. They want to build two new factories. This *might* be a good thing, depending on how the numbers work out.

Tesla locks up $465 million in federal loans, will build battery facility in Bay Area

quote Originally posted by fierobear: They are using some stimulus money for the Tesla car. They want to build two new factories. This *might* be a good thing, depending on how the numbers work out. Tesla locks up $465 million in federal loans, will build battery facility in Bay Area

They seem to have made more progress in the electric car area than anyone else. Could be a pretty decent investment. It does have its merits.

But we still need to get to work on generation and transmission capacity to power the coming wave of electromobiles.

Db Cooper, why can't we endorse that they want a legitimate election, and not to be persecuted for thinking so.

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Db Cooper, why can't we endorse that they want a legitimate election, and not to be persecuted for thinking so.

Because we tend to agree more with Isreal (who allow actual elections and religious tolerance) than we do with most Arab countries that have dictatorships and openly persecute any religious views other than Islam; in their eyes that makes us the Great Satan... anything we are in favor of MUST be evil.

Thinking that kind of resembles our own extreme leftists.

quote Originally posted by D B Cooper: Because we tend to agree more with Isreal (who allow actual elections and religious tolerance) than we do with most Arab countries that have dictatorships and openly persecute any religious views other than Islam; in their eyes that makes us the Great Satan... anything we are in favor of MUST be evil.

Well then, the answer's easy. Say we're in favor of dictatorships

quote Originally posted by D B Cooper: I can say I agree with Obama's 'mum's the word' approach to Iran.

First off. Never trust a politician to further than his/her term in office.

Seriously, LOL I have mental thoughts of former Pres. Bush and VP mouthing off right about now. One thing is for sure, WE have someone in office that can arrange and complete a sentence without fumbling. The previous administration butchered the English language, stone wall every investigation. If you're going to lie to the public at least don't make it so obvious.

As for Pres. Obama,... we're barely over 100 days and there's a few things I don't agree with like the bailouts, illegal aliens (that IMO was a smoke screen), the border fence (another smoke screen to get elected), and many, many more. On the other hand I do like how he tackled the credit card businesses and consumer protections, going after illegal loan companies, our relationship with other countries, closing Getomimo prison (mis-spelled). The stimulus package,.... I'm not liking that right now, but he did mention about going after states, elected officials, and companies that might have other motives and kick-backs.

So far, it's nice to not hear stupid things about some girl giving the President oral sex or someone ratting off a secret agent. It's also nice to reflect on past rantings regarding Pres. Obama legal status. Gawd, those thread were plain stupid. Oh yeah, my party affiliation isn't none of your bee's wax, but commenting on past and present administrations is rather hilarious.

------------------



"I drive modified Fieros- anything less would be uncivilized."

Has Gitmo been closed?
I've heard Obama say he was going to close it, but I was under the impression it would be at least a year before that can happen. Don't they still have prisoners?

Also, how do you feel about Obama's foreign policy? (I forgot to list that at the top)
Do you think he's improving the U.S.'s image worldwide?
How do you feel about the Cap & Trade legislation that's currently making it's way through Congress?

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 06-25-2009).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I voted for Obama. I never supported any bailouts. I do like that he closed Gitmo, but at the same time I don't know what can be done with the 'inmates' given that they weren't captured with due process in mind. I wouldn't want to be put in the position to make that call either, so I can sympathize. I do like that we're leaving Iraq. I do like that we shifted our attention to Afghanistan. At the same time I am worried that the only options available for Afghanistan are perpetual occupation or falling to extremists. I am greatly concerned about the deficit. I do think the stimulus plan(s) is/are working. I have hands in both real estate and retail sales, and both are up up up from Q1 2009. He's not perfect, but I would still take him over McCain (or worse - Palin!) But I would have preferred to see president Paul.

Thank you Ryan--for stating your opinion and beliefs regarding the original question. I have seen very few, who supported Obama, do the same, and I suspected it was because they want later, to be able to say "Show me where I said I supported that program".
I disagree with your most of your assesments, but kudus for having the guts to stand up with yours.

quote Originally posted by kwagner: Well then, the answer's easy. Say we're in favor of dictatorships

Exactly. They win.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I voted for Obama. I never supported any bailouts. I do like that he closed Gitmo, but at the same time I don't know what can be done with the 'inmates' given that they weren't captured with due process in mind. I wouldn't want to be put in the position to make that call either, so I can sympathize. I do like that we're leaving Iraq. I do like that we shifted our attention to Afghanistan. At the same time I am worried that the only options available for Afghanistan are perpetual occupation or falling to extremists. I am greatly concerned about the deficit. I do think the stimulus plan(s) is/are working. I have hands in both real estate and retail sales, and both are up up up from Q1 2009. He's not perfect, but I would still take him over McCain (or worse - Palin!) But I would have preferred to see president Paul.

I must have missed that Gitmo was closed..when did that happen?

We are leaving Irag? didn't he plan on sending in another 30,000 troops.

The stimulus is working? News to me. Unemployment has been increasing and more industries are laying people off. The stimulus has helped out GM their sales are dropping, Chrysler sold off to Fiat. Deficit spending gone wild. Many brueacratic czars appointed to oversee other appointed czars. Looks to me like an economic collapes is on the horizon. Not to worry, "no tax increase for those making less than $250,000 per year" Do you really believe that?

quote Originally posted by madcurl: First off. Never trust a politician to further than his/her term in office.

True dat.

quote Seriously, LOL I have mental thoughts of former Pres. Bush and VP mouthing off right about now. One thing is for sure, WE have someone in office that can arrange and complete a sentence without fumbling. The previous administration butchered the English language, stone wall every investigation. If you're going to lie to the public at least don't make it so obvious.

Yes, the great orators make the great leaders.... There were some great orators in Europe about sixty + years ago.

quote As for Pres. Obama,... we're barely over 100 days and there's a few things I don't agree with like the bailouts, illegal aliens (that IMO was a smoke screen), the border fence (another smoke screen to get elected), and many, many more. On the other hand I do like how he tackled the credit card businesses and consumer protections, going after illegal loan companies, our relationship with other countries, closing Getomimo prison (mis-spelled). The stimulus package,.... I'm not liking that right now, but he did mention about going after states, elected officials, and companies that might have other motives and kick-backs.

Because everything that this Administration has done has been entirely transparent (as promised) and above the board. http://www.washingtonpost.c...AR2009052003535.html

quote So far, it's nice to not hear stupid things about some girl giving the President oral sex or someone ratting off a secret agent. It's also nice to reflect on past rantings regarding Pres. Obama legal status. Gawd, those thread were plain stupid. Oh yeah, my party affiliation isn't none of your bee's wax, but commenting on past and present administrations is rather hilarious.

You forgot to mention perjury.

And why is legal status stupid? It's in the Constitution, and we still haven't seen proof. The issue was just brushed aside. And since there have only been 100+ days, I don't think we've seen anything, yet.

Heres some new shirts online. Ill post addy if anyone wants to order

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I voted for Obama. I never supported any bailouts. I do like that he closed Gitmo, but at the same time I don't know what can be done with the 'inmates' given that they weren't captured with due process in mind. I wouldn't want to be put in the position to make that call either, so I can sympathize. I do like that we're leaving Iraq. I do like that we shifted our attention to Afghanistan. At the same time I am worried that the only options available for Afghanistan are perpetual occupation or falling to extremists. I am greatly concerned about the deficit. I do think the stimulus plan(s) is/are working. I have hands in both real estate and retail sales, and both are up up up from Q1 2009. He's not perfect, but I would still take him over McCain (or worse - Palin!) But I would have preferred to see president Paul.

Just to point out since you like many others paid no attention during the election but most of Obama and McCain's policies were fairly similar. The biggest difference is Obama's plan is way more accelerated than McCain's was.
Lets see how many people try to tell me I'm wrong.

Come on people. Let's not argue over who's opinions we agree or disagree with. I would really like to hear the Democrat viewpoint and understand it. I may not agree with it, but I'd like to know where they're coming from.

There are plenty of other threads for any manner of complaints about the current administration. I make my displeasure known in them as well. If you think people's reasoning is in error, please start a different thread to address it.

Thank you.

I'm happy as a clam under a sewer drain off.

Problem is I never thought there would be this much **** this fast. I also thought that people would be more concerned about the **** but the drain is still flowing full speed.

quote Originally posted by FieroJam: Just to point out since you like many others paid no attention during the election but most of Obama and McCain's policies were fairly similar. The biggest difference is Obama's plan is way more accelerated than McCain's was. Lets see how many people try to tell me I'm wrong.

No disagreement here. The US public was screwed either way. The only one with a head on straight was Palin and the hope was McCain would kick the bucket mid term so there would be a fiscal conservative in charge.

But all is for naught.. well maybe not.. Hopefully we can keep Franken out of the Senate long enough that the energy bill just passed in the house dies in the Senate.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I voted for Obama. I never supported any bailouts.

See below..

quote I do like that he closed Gitmo, but at the same time I don't know what can be done with the 'inmates' given that they weren't captured with due process in mind. I wouldn't want to be put in the position to make that call either, so I can sympathize.

Same position as Obama. Exactly the same.

quote I do like that we're leaving Iraq.

We are? When? 2057?

quote I do like that we shifted our attention to Afghanistan. At the same time I am worried that the only options available for Afghanistan are perpetual occupation or falling to extremists.

But the same doesn't apply to Iraq? Why not?

quote I am greatly concerned about the deficit.

President Obama isn't.

quote I do think the stimulus plan(s) is/are working.

Where are the jobs it was supposed to create? Not those "dig holes and fill them back in" types of makework jobs. How's the stock market? How's the dollar?

quote He's not perfect, but I would still take him over McCain (or worse - Palin!) But I would have preferred to see president Paul.

That's weird. Obama and Paul are polar opposites on fiscal matters.

quote Originally posted by fogglethorpe: I speak well also. Would you elect me based on that? Maybe President Obama, who speaks eloquently when he is reading someone else's words on a teleprompter, would make a fine White House Press Secretary. But they handed him the keys to the Oval Office instead.

You know, I'll bet Obama would have been a good Secretary of State.

I think I got your point for the thread formula.

But so far I havent seen any Obama supporters say that anything hes done in office has worked at all. Seems like most of his voters are hiding in holes to avoid people pointing at them and saying 'told ya so'. Ive yet to see anyone jump up and say hes doing any good for this country.

Heres a little theory for conspiracy people : what if Obama (whos yet to produce a valid birth cerficate btw) is a puppet that was groomed and supported by radical muslims to work at taking over the west from the inside ? Nothing works better at destroying someone than planting a mole in the administrative or executive position of anything from companies to countries. Is Obama really an 'employee' of Osama Bin Laden ? Just a thought, since he really seems to kiss up to all the arab countries and cares less about what the typical 'christian' countries think.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I think I got your point for the thread formula. But so far I havent seen any Obama supporters say that anything hes done in office has worked at all. Seems like most of his voters are hiding in holes to avoid people pointing at them and saying 'told ya so'. Ive yet to see anyone jump up and say hes doing any good for this country. *snip*

I know a few, but i agree that they are starting to question what is going on.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Come on people. Let's not argue over who's opinions we agree or disagree with. I would really like to hear the Democrat viewpoint and understand it. I may not agree with it, but I'd like to know where they're coming from. Thank you.

This is why no one ever posts an opposing view point on here, the character assassination and overwhelming anti Obama group make it like arguing with a brick wall (you have to admit anti Obama is 10x more than the anti bush group ever was from my view point). I value my Fiero friendships to much to try and argue with someone who's always right (in their minds). This thread is proof of that, it was suppose to be a place to express a true opinion and yet there are many subtle attacks on an opposing view point, it's just not worth the headache.

this is the only $.02 I'm going to say before my head gets bit off.

Dan

quote Originally posted by DanFiero: This is why no one ever posts an opposing view point on here, the character assassination and overwhelming anti Obama group make it like arguing with a brick wall (you have to admit anti Obama is 10x more than the anti bush group ever was from my view point). I value my Fiero friendships to much to try and argue with someone who's always right (in their minds). This thread is proof of that, it was suppose to be a place to express a true opinion and yet there are many subtle attacks on an opposing view point, it's just not worth the headache. this is the only $.02 I'm going to say before my head gets bit off. Dan

The thread has been a failure. However, I do disagree with your assessment that anti-Obama sentiment is worse than the anti-Bush sentiment. I guess that perspective depends on whether it's your guy getting bashed or not. There were a lot of personal attacks against Bush, calling him stupid, likening him to a Chimp, etc. From what I saw, most of the anti-Bush talk was of a personal nature, although the anti-war talk was at least about policy.

Most of the anti-Obama talk I've read has been about his policies and actions. I think he's naive and that has led him to make policy choices that are likely to do more damage than good, but my problem is with the policies, not the man.

If this thread has shown anything it's that Republicans and Democrats are not interested in getting along.
There is no desire for bi-partisanship, on either side.

I am disappointed at the Conservatives who've posted in this thread who just couldn't resist the opportunity to take exception to a differing viewpoint. I really wanted to understand the Democrat viewpoint. It was a simple request and several people simply refused to respect that.

quote Originally posted by DanFiero: This is why no one ever posts an opposing view point on here, the character assassination and overwhelming anti Obama group make it like arguing with a brick wall (you have to admit anti Obama is 10x more than the anti bush group ever was from my view point). I value my Fiero friendships to much to try and argue with someone who's always right (in their minds). This thread is proof of that, it was suppose to be a place to express a true opinion and yet there are many subtle attacks on an opposing view point, it's just not worth the headache. this is the only $.02 I'm going to say before my head gets bit off. Dan

Not biting your head off.
Think you're a little off in the anti-Obama thing.
The main difference is. Liberals/Dems Hated Bush the person and anything associated with him - Only thing I've seen worse is their hatred of Palin.

Most conservatives/Republicans I know don't hate Obama. We completely disagree with his policies and those being put forward by the dem leadership of Pelosi and Reid. But when we go to bed at night we're not praying that they die

quote Originally posted by Uaana: Most conservatives/Republicans I know don't hate Obama. We completely disagree with his policies and those being put forward by the dem leadership of Pelosi and Reid. But when we go to bed at night we're not praying that they die

Agreed. I don't *hate* Obama, I just strongly object to his policies.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I am disappointed at the Conservatives who've posted in this thread who just couldn't resist the opportunity to take exception to a differing viewpoint. I really wanted to understand the Democrat viewpoint. It was a simple request and several people simply refused to respect that.

I'm also interested in trying to understand the liberal viewpoint. Since I don't agree with most of it, I'd like to at least understand where they're coming from and what led them to their current positions.

Most of what I heard during the election was anti-Bush and anti-GOP. Well, Bush is gone and the Dems are running things. But I've yet to hear many liberals say they are happy with how things are going, at least beyond the " yippee, Bush is gone!" argument.

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 06-27-2009).]

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Db Cooper, why can't we endorse that they want a legitimate election, and not to be persecuted for thinking so.

they had a legit election in about 1953
they threw out the shaw and put in a leftest government
then our dear CIA over turned their real election
and brought back the shaw
the shaw ruled with secret police and terror for 25 + years
they remember all that
thats why

who said we do not support terror
we have a long history of supporting rightwing terrorests
shaw
F M in the P I
too many to count tinhorns in centrail america
even goddamm insane was one of our guys for a while

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: they had a legit election in about 1953 they threw out the shaw and put in a leftest government then our dear CIA over turned their real election and brought back the shaw the shaw ruled with secret police and terror for 25 + years they remember all that thats why who said we do not support terror we have a long history of supporting rightwing terrorests shaw F M in the P I too many to count tinhorns in centrail america even goddamm insane was one of our guys for a while

The Shaw did a lot of great things for his country. Including universal education, modernization, great freedoms of its people, and women suffrage.

That all changed when the leftist radicals took over in the revolution, putting Iran in a state of misery till this day.

You're on the wrong side of the fence on everything, aren't you!

"Never trust the left"

So still Obama supporters are afraid to try and name even one thing ' they think ' hes done right ..... ?? Someone, pro or con please name one for me.

he has 4 years and how far into it are we?

quote Originally posted by Jrgicehc: he has 4 years and how far into it are we?

Hopefully, about 17 months, when we can replace the majority party in the Congress. Then, maybe we can slow down:

e

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Agreed. I don't *hate* Obama, I just strongly object to his policies.

True. The only assasination of a public servant that John has called for was Nancy Pelosi. I believe the quote was "that b!tch needs to be SHOT!" Surely the line exists for John on which assasinations are called for.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: The Shaw did a lot of great things for his country. Including universal education, modernization, great freedoms of its people, and women suffrage. That all changed when the leftist radicals took over in the revolution, putting Iran in a state of misery till this day. You're on the wrong side of the fence on everything, aren't you! "Never trust the left"

so did hitler

BTW the 79 revolution was rightest with the godboys taking over
god guns and guts only there no commie leftests in that mess
that was your side not my side in action
the 53 vote and the 79 revolt werenot the same
the leftest won in the 53 vote but lost do to the CIA
and yes most rightwing takeovers do turn out baddly

but you know the rightwing never admits it's errors
and uses spin and the BIG LIE to blame others
for all of the rights screw ups

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: so did hitler BTW the 79 revolution was rightest with the godboys taking over god guns and guts only there no commie leftests in that mess that was your side not my side in action the 53 vote and the 79 revolt werenot the same the leftest won in the 53 vote but lost do to the CIA and yes most rightwing takeovers do turn out baddly but you know the rightwing never admits it's errors and uses spin and the BIG LIE to blame others for all of the rights screw ups

Using the terms "left" and "right" when comparing two very different countries isn't an honest argument.

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 06-28-2009).]