So, the idea is to take two companies going down the tubes and create one bigger company that will have all of the problems under one roof? Desperation must be setting in, but then again, nothing else they've tried has helped any.
[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 10-10-2008).]
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10:49 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
I'd never buy a chrysler/dodge just because of all the crap that has gone wrong with other people's cars. They're just poorly designed. If chrysler starts building GM vehicles, don't expect me to buy anything ever again. I guess I'd have to switch to the blue oval.
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10:59 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
GM already has too many brands that compete against one another.
------------------ Raydar 88 4.9 Formula IMSA Fasback..........................88 3.4 coupe -soon to be something other than red Read Nealz Nuze!Praise the Lowered!
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11:36 PM
Oct 11th, 2008
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
Back in the 50's Studebaker bought Packard, a formerly fine car company that had made some bad moves and fallen on hard times. How'd that work out? Have you seen this years new Studebaker-Packards? No? Nash bought Hudson and Jeep back in the '50s and formed American Motors (AMC). Have you seen the new AMC cars this year? No? The only asset Chrysler really has is Jeep. Would GM be smart to take on a huge debt load just to get that brand? It doesn't seem smart to me.
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 10-11-2008).]
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12:56 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
GM already has too many brands that compete against one another.
If they would actually give their brands a real identity that set them apart from the others, they'd probably do better.
They should really pare down to maybe 4, and stay away from blurring the lines between brands: Cadillac: obviously upscale, competing with the likes of Lexus. Chevy: economy and family cars, e.g. Corolla, Camry, Accord, etc Pontiac: a bit higher end than the Chevy's, with more emphasis on sporty looks and performance. GMC: trucks
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01:10 AM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16233 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
You don't see any Toyota's or Datsun's in my driveway or any of my family's. It ain't my fault. I have never understood this crap about foreign cars being assembled here so it makes it ok.
Reap the whirlwind gentlemen. We all have to pay for our neighbors mistakes.
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01:25 AM
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
You don't see any Toyota's or Nissans in my driveway. It ain't my fault. I have never understood this crap about foreign cars being assembled here so it makes it ok.
Reap the whirlwind gentlemen. We all have to pay for our neighbors mistakes.
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01:35 AM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37848 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
The oilfield is always buying up the oilfield around it. Companies get bought and assimulated and basically disappear. It makes sense that these failing companies merge.
quote
Originally posted by pokeyfiero:
You don't see any Toyota's or Datsun's in my driveway or any of my family's. I have never understood this crap about foreign cars being assembled here so it makes it ok.
You will see two in mine. Along with Fieros, Jeep CJ7s (AMC), a 70 Chevy and a 70 Ford P/U. My newest GM is my 88 Fiero.
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01:42 AM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16233 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Reap the whirlwind gentlemen. We all have to pay for our neighbors mistakes.
It's GM's fault. They couldn't anticipate the imploding SUV market. They cut key programs everywhere. Electric and alternative fuel vehicles. They promoted ethanol vehicles when the added cost was not justified. They make ass-ugly vehicles. (where were the focus groups? Remember the Aztek? The solstice is ugly too, IMHO) The rest is bland. The number of "sexy" cars, I can count on one hand. Lets see, the XLR, the corvette, maybe the camaro, and I guess the sky, but that's stretching.
What GM reminds me of, is the government. The upper echelons have become so disconnected from their people that there's growing resentment and disenfranchisement. They need a checkup from the neck up.
GM's not going to go under, but if they merge with Chrysler, it could very well mean the end.
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02:16 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
I still can't understand that one. Given the number of levels of approval a proposed car has to go through at GM, how in the world did that thing ever get a green light for production?
When you make a car that displaces the Edsel as the ugliest ever made, you've got problems.
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02:24 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
You don't see any Toyota's or Datsun's in my driveway or any of my family's. It ain't my fault. I have never understood this crap about foreign cars being assembled here so it makes it ok.
Reap the whirlwind gentlemen. We all have to pay for our neighbors mistakes.
The argument can be made that Toyota (for example) is creating jobs here. Those employees then spend their paychecks here, which contributes to their local economy. Then you have the parts suppliers, and while not all or even many of them are U.S., some may be. Then you've got things like auto transporters, dealers, and aftermarket suppliers, all of which benefit from having Toyota make the cars here. The profits are going to Japan, true enough, but at least Japan is spending some of that money here. Would you rather they make the cars in India, so we don't even have the jobs?
And just because GM is an American nameplate doesn't mean it's being built here. How much of GM's stuff is built in Canada or Mexico? Where are the parts made? These days, the lines have been blurred so much that it's almost impossible to label a car foriegn or domestic.
I don't bash Toyota for being a foriegn company. I've owned 2 Camry's, and would buy another without hesitation (although I did just sell my old 96 Camry errand-runner, and bought a 2000 Grand Prix to replace it). The fact is, they make damn good cars and have for a long time. GM/Ford/Chrysler are approaching them in quality, but it may be too little too late.
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02:49 AM
blackrams Member
Posts: 33147 From: Covington, TN, USA Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by GT86: GM/Ford/Chrysler are approaching them in quality, but it may be too little too late.
Only if we let it be too late. Yes, the Big Three have to offer what we want but, too many folks go straight to the foregn car dealership and won't even consider an American product. It saddens me that we done this to ourselves. There are 7 Fieros sitting in my shop, one Dodge and one Jeep. I always look at American vehicles first. I've never been disappointed. My neighborhood is filled with Toyotas, Hondas, Kias and other vehicles. Yet all my neighbors are shaking their heads at our current economic situation. There is a relationship. I know and believe that Auto Unions are a big part of the problem but, only because the Big Three allowed it to happen.
Ron
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03:37 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Only if we let it be too late. Yes, the Big Three have to offer what we want but, too many folks go straight to the foregn car dealership and won't even consider an American product. It saddens me that we done this to ourselves. There are 7 Fieros sitting in my shop, one Dodge and one Jeep. I always look at American vehicles first. I've never been disappointed. My neighborhood is filled with Toyotas, Hondas, Kias and other vehicles. Yet all my neighbors are shaking their heads at our current economic situation. There is a relationship. I know and believe that Auto Unions are a big part of the problem but, only because the Big Three allowed it to happen.
Ron
Problem is, once you lose market share, it's extremely hard to get it back. Poor perceptions of your product linger, even when your product has improved dramatically.
And yes, unions have played a big part in the decline of the Big 3, but as you mentioned, management is equally at fault. They allowed the unions to steamroll them, but they also have made very poor decisions regarding the product lines. There is way too much management bloat, and they don't seem to be able to predit future trends. They're always playing catch-up, long after the race has already been lost.
I usually look at domestic nameplates first, but my last 4 have been disappointments. I had a 94 Dodge Dakota that had electrical issues within its first year, a 97 Ford Escort that had tranny problems at 25,000 miles, a 99 Ford Explorer that had all sorts of squeaks, rattles, and an interior that was falling apart before it hit 65,000 miles, and a 97 Pontiac Grand Am that never did run right even after multiple warranty repairs. Maybe I just got lemons. But in contrast, I had a 95 Camry that was still going strong at 260,000 miles, and a 96 Camry that had just hit 170,000 miles when I sold it. Neither one ever left me stranded, and required almost nothing but routine maintenance. I'd still have the 96 if it hadn't been involved in an accident.
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06:56 AM
Monkeyman Member
Posts: 15845 From: Sparta, NC Registered: Nov 1999
I like people complaining about Dodge myself. It keeps the prices lower for me. Chrysler invented half the stuff on all your cars, no matter the make. Alternator, electronic ign, electric wipers disc brakes (on a US car), etc....... I own 3 Dodges and wouldnt trade them for GMs. Id even take Ford over GM. I will admit my Fiero kitcar was the best used car Ive owned...but then I rebuilt everything on it from the ground up.
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06:57 AM
Monkeyman Member
Posts: 15845 From: Sparta, NC Registered: Nov 1999
"...electric wipers..."?? According to some new movie coming out, Ford had the first electric wipers cuz they stole the idea from some guy. Hey! If it's on TV (or in the theater...or on Als' internet) it must be true.
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07:09 AM
Hank is Here Member
Posts: 4462 From: Hershey, Pa Registered: Sep 2000
"...electric wipers..."?? According to some new movie coming out, Ford had the first electric wipers cuz they stole the idea from some guy. Hey! If it's on TV (or in the theater...or on Als' internet) it must be true.
That is the delay wiper, not the electric wiper
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07:49 AM
Cheever3000 Member
Posts: 12400 From: The Man from Tallahassee Registered: Aug 2001
Chrysler Front Wheel Drive Transaxles. Is probably all most have to say to keep people away from Chrysler. EVERY and I do mean EVERY person I know that has owned a front wheel drive Chrysler has had transmission problems. My mother bought a newer LeBaron 3.0 V6 4spd Auto Convertible nice car, and had to spend 1400 on a new trans before it even got to 90,000 miles. My wife (FieroChick) bought a used Plymouth Caravan, it blew the tranny and had to spend 1200 on a new trans. Both cars have had major electrical problems. Power windows that quite working, speedos that go nuts, intermittent lights that go out. The convertible top motor burnt out. The vans passenger power window locked up and damn near caught fire, it was HOT to the touch. As much as I love the Viper go read the Viper forums about the repairs that have to be done. You could buy a new Fiero every 6 months just in the repair costs of a Viper. However even with the Viper issues I think that is the only car that I would like to see added to the GM line. Well maybe the Hemi Chargers too. Just not the Neon SRT4 LOL.
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11:30 AM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27106 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
So, the idea is to take two companies going down the tubes and create one bigger company that will have all of the problems under one roof? Desperation must be setting in, but then again, nothing else they've tried has helped any.
This reminds me of the watermelon story. Two guys have a truck full of watermelons. They go out and sell all the watermelons. The first guy asks the second guy "How'd we do?" The second guy answers "Not too good, I guess. We sold all the watermelons, but lost money" The first guy replies "Gee, I guess we need a bigger truck!".
So two losing companies will make one profitable one? Good luck with that.
So, the idea is to take two companies going down the tubes and create one bigger company that will have all of the problems under one roof? Desperation must be setting in, but then again, nothing else they've tried has helped any.
On the radio they were saying part of the deal is that Chrysler gets to manage GMAC..
Speaking from outside the US..I can honestly say, I will ALWAYS look to an American car before anything else. Mustangs..had 2, and they were great! Dodge Ram minibus..fantastic vehicle. Jeeps--three of them, all Cherokees, all have been outstanding. Fieros- had 4..sold three for good profits (only reason ) My Fiero has stood in the road outside for around 7 months..and started first time when I needed to use her. Brilliant. The only car that I have heard REAL gripes about here in Europe, has been Chrysler LeBarons. They are hated here . I think you guys might be rather too hard on your vehilces, opinion-wise.
Finally, I wouldn't be at ALL surprised if a European Company didn't buy a large share in GM, over another American Company Nick
I can just picture it...GMW!!
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 10-11-2008).]
Chrysler Front Wheel Drive Transaxles. Is probably all most have to say to keep people away from Chrysler. EVERY and I do mean EVERY person I know that has owned a front wheel drive Chrysler has had transmission problems. My mother bought a newer LeBaron 3.0 V6 4spd Auto Convertible nice car, and had to spend 1400 on a new trans before it even got to 90,000 miles. My wife (FieroChick) bought a used Plymouth Caravan, it blew the tranny and had to spend 1200 on a new trans. Both cars have had major electrical problems. Power windows that quite working, speedos that go nuts, intermittent lights that go out. The convertible top motor burnt out. The vans passenger power window locked up and damn near caught fire, it was HOT to the touch. As much as I love the Viper go read the Viper forums about the repairs that have to be done. You could buy a new Fiero every 6 months just in the repair costs of a Viper. However even with the Viper issues I think that is the only car that I would like to see added to the GM line. Well maybe the Hemi Chargers too. Just not the Neon SRT4 LOL.
While I have always been a chrysler fan, I have to agree with the FWD transmission problem. 100k and they become disposable. Its one reason i went for a GM product when i replaced my Sebring. ( which then promptly blew a 1000$ sensor.. grr )
Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Chrysler Front Wheel Drive Transaxles. Is probably all most have to say to keep people away from Chrysler.
haha yeah.
and if that doesn't get them, it leaks like a sieve! I remember the dodge van we had leaked transmission fluid and oil. The oil leak dripped on the exhaust or something, and because of that if you didn't set the vent settings to recirculate you got to smell oil.
My mom's sebring also leaks, both oil and tranny fluid. I don't get it, because it's only 10 years old. I've got 3 older GM cars that don't leak.
You don't see any Toyota's or Datsun's in my driveway or any of my family's. It ain't my fault. I have never understood this crap about foreign cars being assembled here so it makes it ok.
Reap the whirlwind gentlemen. We all have to pay for our neighbors mistakes.
Well, it does provide jobs for people here in the states. And remember too those cars use a % of American made component parts, so it does trickle down. Sure a large % of the profits go back over seas, but not all of it.
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11:51 AM
Capt Fiero Member
Posts: 7658 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2000
LOL your right I forgot about 2 things, Constant Oil Leaks and the Signature Chrysler V6 Tick. Every OHC Chrysler with any kind of mileage (over 50,000 miles) I have ever seen has a Valve Tick. Drives me nuts. The first time it happened, I got worried and sent it out and had them fix it. The 2nd time it happened, I talked to some people and they said just ignore it. My mothers Lebaron has had the tick for the last 2 years, I just keep filling it with thicker oil. I think we are on 20w50 now, then overfill the bugger by a liter it seems to quite it down a bit. It leaks oil so quick anyway, that extra liter is gone in a week. I HATE THAT CAR. We actually tried to sell it a couple times. Resale Value is 1/4 of a comparable Pontiac Sunbird Convertible. I actually made a web page for it. www.captfiero.com/lebaron I think I had Fiero wheels on it for a while in those pics. To her if she can't get at least $1500 for it, she'll just keep it as a backup car. LOL, actually she plans to drive it this winter in the hopes someone hits the car and writes it off.
P.S. Both my mother and my wife now drive Fieros as daily drivers.
------------------ 85GT,93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
LOL your right I forgot about 2 things, Constant Oil Leaks and the Signature Chrysler V6 Tick. Every OHC Chrysler with any kind of mileage (over 50,000 miles) I have ever seen has a Valve Tick. Drives me nuts. The first time it happened, I got worried and sent it out and had them fix it. The 2nd time it happened, I talked to some people and they said just ignore it. My mothers Lebaron has had the tick for the last 2 years, I just keep filling it with thicker oil. I think we are on 20w50 now, then overfill the bugger by a liter it seems to quite it down a bit. It leaks oil so quick anyway, that extra liter is gone in a week. I HATE THAT CAR. We actually tried to sell it a couple times. Resale Value is 1/4 of a comparable Pontiac Sunbird Convertible. I actually made a web page for it. www.captfiero.com/lebaron I think I had Fiero wheels on it for a while in those pics. To her if she can't get at least $1500 for it, she'll just keep it as a backup car. LOL, actually she plans to drive it this winter in the hopes someone hits the car and writes it off.
P.S. Both my mother and my wife now drive Fieros as daily drivers.
I always thought that 'tick' was more from the injectors then valves.
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01:32 PM
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
Speaking of Chrysler build (lack of) quality, we inherited a 2004 PT Cruiser. The L/R window sometimes won't go up. And I would never attempt to work on the (mostly plastic) engine. Otherwise, we like it, so far, @ 24,000 miles. 2005 Dodge Ram 1500; the passenger window usually won't work from the passenger side switch, but usually works from the drivers switch. RR Caliper stuck, wore out the rotor before we noticed it. Warranty won't cover brakes. Entire dash, lights, gages, and wipers quit working 300 miles from home @ night in the rain. We kept driving, and it eventually started working for a while, then went out again. The dealer fixed it under warranty. I did not make the buying decision on this truck, or we would have another trouble free Ford. I also have two Fieros and a trouble free Mercury Grand Marquis (ok, its made in Canada). They ALL ride on USA made tires, BTW. Since I don't live in Japan, Korea, or Germany, I buy things that are made here, by American companies whenever I can.
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 10-11-2008).]
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01:48 PM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
bad idea... but as for buy American? Sure, when they start producing a quality product that isn't over priced. I used to be a GM man and no longer. My last purchase (Aztek with a wonderful 3.4L)... I replaced the intake gasket many times and also the headgasket. Then I needed to rebuild the tranny. Not to mention the corroded wiring connections under the chassis.
This is a piece of crap and GM knows it but they won't make changes to correct it. How many cars used the 3.4 and had intake gasket problems? If GM made a quality vehicle at a reasonable price, I would look at them again. But I am saving up my money to buy a certified BMW X3. BTW, I also get the GM employee discount and even that isn't enough to get me back into the showroom.
I did like my sebring conv. No problems with that (at least up to 65K when I sold it to get this POS Aztek).
I have an 03' dodge ram with no problems ever and 96k miles on it. No warranty work on anything, original brakes replaced at 77k only thing considered major work other than changing the trans fluid.
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01:55 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16233 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
Well, it does provide jobs for people here in the states. And remember too those cars use a % of American made component parts, so it does trickle down. Sure a large % of the profits go back over seas, but not all of it.
As far as I'm concerned a car or truck is a huge purchase. Probably the largest purchase most people make aside from real estate. Taking market share from American companies is not acceptable at such a level in my mind.
I have owned foreign cars and trucks but neve have I or will I buy one new. It just doesn't make sense to me to hurt an American company on that scale. I don't dislike GM/CHRY but I prefer Fords and that is what we buy. I especially get angry when I see a full size foreign truck being driven buy a Mexican Immigrant. That just kills me.
I still own my Zenith projection TV from 1981(still works everyday). I would go out and buy another one (mostly just so my friends would stop teasing me about my dinosaur) but now they are owned for LG. A new TV this size is gonna cost a couple grand so if I could buy an American made one I would.
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02:43 PM
Eagle Kammback Member
Posts: 533 From: South Jersey Registered: Nov 2007
As far as I'm concerned a car or truck is a huge purchase. Probably the largest purchase most people make aside from real estate. Taking market share from American companies is not acceptable at such a level in my mind.
That's the thing though. As huge an expense as a car is, you've got to go with the best bang for the buck. And sadly, in most cases the foreign car is going to be the better choice. It's going to be more dependable, cheaper to own, and will retain more value. I don't like the fact that American companies aren't competing well with the foreign brands, but I can't afford to drop $20k-$30k into a car that won't last, needs constant repair, and won't hold resale value.
People buying foreign cars aren't the root cause of the problem. That's just a symptom. Those companies are losing market share because for so many years they turned out crap and drove their customers away.
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02:58 PM
htexans1 Member
Posts: 9115 From: Clear Lake City/Houston TX Registered: Sep 2001
That's the thing though. As huge an expense as a car is, you've got to go with the best bang for the buck. And sadly, in most cases the foreign car is going to be the better choice. It's going to be more dependable, cheaper to own, and will retain more value. I don't like the fact that American companies aren't competing well with the foreign brands, but I can't afford to drop $20k-$30k into a car that won't last, needs constant repair, and won't hold resale value.
People buying foreign cars aren't the root cause of the problem. That's just a symptom. Those companies are losing market share because for so many years they turned out crap and drove their customers away.
Well the companies are responsible for their image but for the last ten years or more it really is about popularity and people just repeating that same excuse. Every manufacture has bad apples in the basket. I happen to buy fords because they have proven to be the toughest even though GMs are cheaper to repair. I don't like down time.
One thing is we never have purchased the smaller econobuckets that manufacturers put out. Always been larger trucks or upscale sedans.
) My Fiero has stood in the road outside for around 7 months..and started first time when I needed to use her. Brilliant.
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