quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Well the companies are responsible for their image but for the last ten years or more it really is about popularity and people just repeating that same excuse. Every manufacture has bad apples in the basket. I happen to buy fords because they have proven to be the toughest even though GMs are cheaper to repair. I don't like down time. One thing is we never have purchased the smaller econobuckets that manufacturers put out. Always been larger trucks or upscale sedans.

I agree but as I posted earlier, once you allow your image and market share to erode, it's extremely hard to get it back. In order to do it, you've got to go above and beyond the competition, not simply try to match them. The Big 3 never really recovered from the oil crisis of the 1970's. They've had 30+ years, and are still playing catch-up. That's not the fault of the consumer, so I don't blame folks for spending their hard-earned $$$ on a better vehicle even if it is foriegn.

And the econobuckets is where a large percentage of the customer base is, especially these days with people wanting good fuel economy. And that market is precisely where the Big 3 have their biggest quality problems.

Fault... Pretty much. One of hundreds of examples... Buying Hummer was bad enough. H2 H3 etc are nothing but standard GM platforms with what amounts to appearance packages. Hummer is mainly a fad vehicle. It had limited life to start with and high fuel $ is killing it. It wasn't doing terribly well before fuel prices rocketed up. Chrysler is no better. They took Durango, which was selling well and made it bigger. Sales never grew on the new version. Not even its Chrysler branded versions commonly called Chromezilla by those making it.

You've also absolutely got to blame the UAW, who has driven labor costs so high that even with the penny pinching on the cars the companies can no longer compete at many price levels. One glaring example is UAW all but bankrupting Delphi. They would rather strike and see a company fold than wake up to the real world. The only thing that kept Delphi running was a major cash infusion and benefits payed for by GM. Much like the recent "bailout" plan for Wall Street. Unions like UAW are as directly responsible for the loss of U.S. jobs as any Company or Gov't policy.

Key programs... The Delphi spinoff has been an unmitigated disaster. Delphi has struggled from the word go and the UAW has pretty much bankrupted it. A huge amount of product under all GM parts brands are now made in China and elsewhere. Buying an AC Delco part is little or no better than buying a "cheap" brand like GP Sorensen. It just costs more.

Flex Fuel... (Ethanol up to E85) This was done for Two reasons.
1. Car makers receive a significant tax break on each Flex Fuel vehicle.
2. Car makers get a big break on the CAFE numbers for Flex Fuel vehicles. CAFE calculation on these vehicles treats them as running E85 full time. The more Flex Fuel vehicles they sell, the better their CAFE number even tho the vehicles still run mainly E10 at most and still get crappy gas millage.

They make ugly cars... All the big three have been turning out one eye sore after another for years. When they do manage a car that sells, they quickly fart with it and sales plummet.

Chrysler designs are bad... Actually it's not a design problem for the most part. It's a bean counter problem. Chrysler management, all of them in the last many years, has allowed the bean counters to run the product into mush. The cost of things is cut into the bone, not just close or to it. With only very small exceptions, they have sacrificed quality and durability at every level to cost. Much of the problem at Ford or GM can be traced to the same. (Johnson Administration "Bean Counters" are a big factor in why to this day the M16 rifle has a bad reputation with many people. Look it up.)

Design wise Chrysler has led GM and Ford on more than a few occasions. "Cab Forward" and Prowler are a couple major items. Cab Forward expanded interior space of the vehicle and still left you with a reasonable engine bay and trunk. At the same time, like Pontiac "Wide Track" it pushed the wheels around in a way that improved the handling of those models. (I think the first version Intrepid/Concord in the early 90's was a Cab Forward vehicle.) That concept has been used in many cars since. Prowler uses some construction techniques that are still cutting edge. Among other things, I believe it is the first production vehicle to use adhesives to assemble the Aluminum frame. Even Corvette and more than a few imports have to drool when a Viper or Prowler are around.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by GT86: People buying foreign cars aren't the root cause of the problem. That's just a symptom. Those companies are losing market share because for so many years they turned out crap and drove their customers away.

I can relate to that after walking into a Chrysler dealership. Recently we were looking for a new family car so I thought I would look at some dodges. Yes we have them here.

Wellll, talk about unimpressive interiors. They looked cheap and nasty. Not only cheap and nasty but lacked the mod cons of other makers. Lack of cup holders and storage compartments is a big gripe.

As quoted by a local female car journo on the Chrysler 300C "How did they manage to fit such a small interior into such a large car"

In the end I bought a Belgium built Ford Mondeo Turbo Diesel. Great car and won Euro car of the year last year.

quote Originally posted by htexans1: The LS1 Challenger is the hottest SRT-8 yet. Camaro and Challenger as sister cars. lol

I could see them just rebadging a Challenger and calling it a Camaro, since they cant seem to build it anyway. And why would you want to detune a Challenger with a GM V8

While I have seen a lot of Chrysler FWD tranny troubles, so has Ford. Nothing is more reliable than a RWD Mopar. 727 auto was and still is the best auto trans ever made. It would handle 700 hp for years on end without breaking. Only GM coming close was turbo 400.

Ive had a few Caravans with 200,000 that were going just fine. One I have for a beater now has 175,000, 3.8 V6 and still a strong quiet engine. All it needs is the front rotors turned. Everything including air still works fine. First real problem Ive had in years just started up. The crank sensor pooped out, making erratic no starts. Replacing that Monday.

All in all, with the several hundred cars Ive owned since 1965, Mopar repairs have been the best to my wallet. My 66 with its original unopened engine since I got it over a year ago has only cost me an oil/filter change, rear pinion seal, battery, and a set of points and plugs after 7,000 miles. My Vette with only 75,000 on the other hand cost me around $2500 last year in maintanence and I only put 4,000 miles on it during that time. Van got oil change and wheel alignment in last 2 years. Ive had the Magnum for 4 years now and only cost has been a couple of oil changes. It has had a few (2) minor things under warranty. Gasket on fuel fill tube defective, one power window motor. Recalls (2) to check anti freeze level, and to reapply new Emmision label under hood.

Ramerado
Dururban
Malibring
Vipette
Nebolt
Wrangummer
Challaro
3008/300Prix
Concovue


I'll stop

(One more... I think the new Liberhoe could be a great seller)

[This message has been edited by pumpkincarriage (edited 10-11-2008).]

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: You don't see any Toyota's or Datsun's in my driveway or any of my family's. It ain't my fault. I have never understood this crap about foreign cars being assembled here so it makes it ok. Reap the whirlwind gentlemen. We all have to pay for our neighbors mistakes.

My only problem with condemning anyone who has bought "foreign" is that the "big three" fell behind the Hondas and Toyotas in quality. They are catching up finally, but much of the damage has been done.

IMHO, chrysler should have been gone in 1979 when the gov't bailed them out. I'm sorry but i have no respect for a company that is supposed to be competing in a free market going to big daddy government to mop up all THEIR bad decisions with OUR tax dollars.

In my opinion, the awesomeness scale of domestic cars goes: Ford, GM, then Chrysler. If GM and Chrysler merge, soon we'll only have Fords to choose from if you want a domestic. Might not be so bad.....

[This message has been edited by MordacP (edited 10-12-2008).]

Sometimes everyone needs help from bad decisions. Bankruptcy has saved many families from bad personal spending. If the government didnt step into airline industry, none of us would be flying. Wed be driving ourselves all over the country, or riding busses and horses because there wouldnt be anything in the air but private and military airplanes. Think stock market is causing chaos, you should guess what would happen with no aircraft.

If the gov't stopped their routine bailouts of the airline industry, what would happen? A bunch of airlines would go under but the ones who hold out would get all the customers that the others got. The people who lost their jobs would be hired on the surviving airlines to deal with the extra demand. It's a market correction, and it works if only they would let it.

I can fix the Automakers problems within 5 minutes.

$24/hr floor sweepers, gone and eff the union. Replaced by minimum-wage morons who earn and are paid like morons.

If you have a trade, can weld, can fix things.....then ya get paid accordingly.

Useless teat middle-managers who think they are so important----get the same treatment as the $24/hr floor sweepers.

Get rid of the waste, streamline, useless people are treated as useless........and a car like a Jag can be marketed for under 20K.

Gents, the knowledge is there in the industry---whats lacking is the will.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 10-12-2008).]

Well,now that Jag is owned by India, we'll see how that plays. I don't predict sub 20k Jags, but I've been wrong before.

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: I can fix the Automakers problems within 5 minutes. $24/hr floor sweepers, gone and eff the union. Replaced by minimum-wage morons who earn and are paid like morons. If you have a trade, can weld, can fix things.....then ya get paid accordingly. Useless teat middle-managers who think they are so important----get the same treatment as the $24/hr floor sweepers. Get rid of the waste, streamline, useless people are treated as useless........and a car like a Jag can be marketed for under 20K. Gents, the knowledge is there in the industry---whats lacking is the will.

Ya left out the multi million dollar top management white collar wage earners. CEOs-CFOs. If they were producing a profitable business plan, that would be different. Paying huge sums of money for tanking a once profitable company should not be rewarded.

Ya also forgot to permanently axe the thousands of blue collar workers on extensive paid leave. Screw that concept..

No airline I know of is making it on their own now. There all getting some kind of aid, either from government or within the company (like mechanics and pilots accepting lower pay). Here at our 2 main airports, the city is even paying some airlines to put flights here instead of like other places that CHARGE airlines for gate space.