this could get interesting.

Students want chance to defend themselves

Michael Flitcraft, a 23-year-old sophomore at the University of Cincinnati, has become a leading advocate for college students to carry weapons on campus. He's an organizer for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, a grass-roots organization that was formed after last year's Virginia Tech massacre that left 32 college students and professors dead.

The group boasts more than 25,000 members.

Standing on the Cincinnati campus, Flitcraft calmly explained he is licensed to carry a weapon in Ohio. He wants to carry his gun on campus to defend himself from potential killers, but by law he can't.

"To me it makes no sense that I can defend myself legally over there," he said, pointing to the city streets. "But I am a felon if I step on the grass over here." Video Watch a growing movement for guns on campus ŧ

The issue of guns on campuses has intensified over the last year in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings and picked up again after the more recent killings at Northern Illinois University. Lawmakers in at least nine states are considering legislation to allow guns on campus. Other states have struck down legislation.

Utah is the only state to allow weapons at all public universities. Colorado allows students at universities to carry weapons, except the main university campus in Boulder. In Virginia, Blue Ridge Community College allows students with a proper concealed-weapons permit to be armed. See the status of guns on campus ŧ

For many, allowing college students to carry a gun is a tricky and complex issue.

"I don't think the answer to bullets flying is to send more bullets flying," said Gene Ferrara, the police chief at the University of Cincinnati. "My belief is we ought to be focusing on what we do to prevent the shooting from starting."

Ferrara was a Cincinnati cop for more than a dozen years before he became chief of police at the university. He also said that there are practical concerns from a law enforcement perspective: If you're responding to the scene of a shooting, how do you sort out who is the bad guy and who is the heroic student with a permit?

"The other side of that, I shoot everybody with a gun who doesn't have a uniform on and I then I end up shooting somebody who was a citizen with a carry permit," Ferrara said.
Don't Miss

* A student's take on campus security
* 'Bittergate' sparks new look at candidates and guns
* Settlement reached in Virginia Tech shootings
* Police: Man threatened Virginia Tech-style killings

He says education and outreach are key and that providing students with safe and anonymous ways to report suspicious behavior can go a long way in preventing violence. "All of the research shows someone knew before the shooting started that the shooting was going to happen."

At the University of Cincinnati, most of the students who spoke to CNN said the idea of guns on campus scares them. "I think that it is completely absurd," said senior Jacob Metz.

Freshman Lauren Reams added, "It shocks me."

Security officials insist that young adults are safer on campus than just about anywhere else. Since the so-called Texas Tower shootings at the University of Texas in 1966 when 17 people were killed, there have been about a dozen shootings at colleges or universities.

At Weber State University in Utah where students can carry concealed weapons, professor Ron Holt said a weapon provides added protection from potential gunmen. "I see carrying a concealed firearm as a kind of life insurance policy; 99.99 times you will never need it," he said.

Flitcraft and other students across the nation who support gun rights say they won't give up. Students for Concealed Carry on Campus has established a page on the social network site Facebook. They don't want all students to be armed; what they're pushing for is for students 21 and older who are licensed gun owners to have the right to carry guns on campus.
advertisement

The group is busy planning a protest for later this month in which students who support guns on campus will come to school wearing empty holsters.

"What is a better situation: Someone coming in and shooting in a classroom [or] someone in that classroom having a chance to defend their life and take out that threat?" Flitcraft said

They're passing laws here in Oklahoma to allow veteran's to carry on campus.

Why stop with college students?
There are lots of 18 year old high school students. Shouldn't they be packing heat, too?
Think of the fun times at a football game when somebody disses your kids team.
Instead of dissing them back, the kid could shut him up and gain instant cred.
In fact, why not issue EVERY citizen a CCW permit for their 18th birthday?
Maybe the gun manufacturers could include a rebate coupon to make it easier for young people to purchase that first weapon.
Then, we'd finally all be safe.

yup...the joys of law. law only applies "after the fact". in a room, to be discussed at a later time & date. which means it cannot help anyone who needs it at the moment. it is so so easy to come up with an answer, after everything has played out.

you can whip up one liners all day on either side of this, and they all make perfect sense. but, untill the day comes, when you are standing there, all legal & unarmed - and someone else isnt. go and try and inform the armed person about how wrong he is being. doesnt even have to be a gun. we've already seen the power of 1" knifes. we are at war for years because of 1" knifes.

I will always find ways to kill you. once you are unarmed - you are my play toy. and, your goods & women will be mine.

I see both sides of the argument. A clean background is required in Ohio to get licensed, and I mean clean. Even stuff you did as a minor or items that have been expunged count when you apply for your license. The requirements weed out the jokers very quickly. I agree with carrying on campus, but I agree with making it legal to carry everywhere. btw, open carry is legal in Ohio without a license.

In regards to the cops comment. Its called "judgment." If kid isn't threatening you, even though he has a gun, why shoot him? Cops seem trigger happy when it comes to citizens with firearms. It didn't used to be that way.

I carry a gun almost everywhere I go and almost all the time I'm awake but you would never know. As far as I know, not a single person other than friends/wife have ever known that I had it with me. It scared my wife at first, she would get nervous being around it. Now, it seems more often than not she is asking me if I have it with me as situations appear they may get dicey. She appreciates it now and I do too, as there is time to time that I feel I may need it and glad to know its there.

[This message has been edited by Rainman (edited 04-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: . I will always find ways to kill you. once you are unarmed - you are my play toy. and, your goods & women will be mine.

Since you're such a 'bad playa', I'm sure you wouldn't mind if this was forwarded to the Deetroit PD?
Gawd.

We claim to be civilized here in the western world.
Most of us are.

quote "I don't think the answer to bullets flying is to send more bullets flying," said Gene Ferrara, the police chief at the University of Cincinnati. "My belief is we ought to be focusing on what we do to prevent the shooting from starting." Ferrara was a Cincinnati cop for more than a dozen years before he became chief of police at the university. He also said that there are practical concerns from a law enforcement perspective: If you're responding to the scene of a shooting, how do you sort out who is the bad guy and who is the heroic student with a permit? "The other side of that, I shoot everybody with a gun who doesn't have a uniform on and I then I end up shooting somebody who was a citizen with a carry permit," Chief Ferrara said.

Well, how do YOU tell the difference?
Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out?

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 04-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Since you're such a bad playa, I'm sure you wouldn't mind if this was forwarded to the Deetroit PD? Gawd. We claim to be civilized here in the western world. Most of us are.

and I 100% agree it would be wonderful if those around us would be civilized
but, since I cant afford to live in that world - I must live in mine. and, many around me just dont seem that civilized. in fact, many seem downright aggressive.
and - I am educated. I use my "R's". even with english being my 2nd language.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: law only applies "after the fact".

Thats how it's supposed to be isnt it?

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Why stop with college students? In fact, why not issue EVERY citizen a CCW permit for their 18th birthday? Maybe the gun manufacturers could include a rebate coupon to make it easier for young people to purchase that first weapon. Then, we'd finally all be safe.

Actually, Ive seen on the news that there are a few towns, I think in the southeast, that do that. It fact I saw that several make it illegal NOT to carry one.

Granted, it may cause a bigger problem because of younger immaturity. But think how many times these school and college shootings may have ended differently if responsible students had been armed. There talking here now about allowing teachers and administration personel to carry them, much as some airlines do pilots.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: "I don't think the answer to bullets flying is to send more bullets flying," said Gene Ferrara, the police chief at the University of Cincinnati.

No Gene, I think it is. Do you not remember the North Hollywood shootout?

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Why stop with college students? There are lots of 18 year old high school students. Shouldn't they be packing heat, too?

I don't know about local laws, but I'm fairly certain you have to be 21 to purchase a handgun. I don't think rifles are legal CCW.

K well now that we have the older crowd in here arguing it up, I think as a college student I should throw in my two cents.

I completely love the idea of being able to conceal carry on campus. As I go to the largest university in the nation, Ohio State, I feel more at risk than anyone.

I have looked at these situations such as being in a large lecture hall very closely, and there is no way that you can stop a student who wants to bring in a gun from doing so. If his intentions are bad then we are all screwed. I see this law as more of a deterrent. If I wanna go in and shoot up a place, its not a good idea to go into a police station and do it right? of course not, they all have guns and will shoot back. If you can instill the fact in these would be murderers that the students are ready to defend themselves in the same manner, then they will be less likely to make a move.

And for that "oh lordy lordy guns bad civilized people don't shoot!" comment, NEPTUNE you need a reality check. People are stupid, people will always be stupid. So buckle down and prepare yourself however you want, I know I will be ready with my trusty 227. Don't worry though, when they do bust in and start shooting you can hide behind me.

[This message has been edited by MDFierolvr (edited 04-15-2008).]

Well said MD.

And with ammo prices rising, some folks just might not be able to afford to go out in a blaze of of bullets. I'm paying $.33/round for practice ammo.

[This message has been edited by Rainman (edited 04-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by MDFierolvr: I have looked at these situations such as being in a large lecture hall very closely, and there is no way that you can stop a student who wants to bring in a gun from doing so. If his intentions are bad then we are all screwed. I see this law as more of a deterrent. If I wanna go in and shoot up a place, its not a good idea to go into a police station and do it right? of course not, they all have guns and will shoot back. If you can instill the fact in these would be murderers that the students are ready to defend themselves in the same manner, then they will be less likely to make a move. And for that "oh lordy lordy guns bad civilized people don't shoot!" comment, NEPTUNE you need a reality check. People are stupid, people will always be stupid. So buckle down and prepare yourself however you want, I know I will be ready with my trusty 227. Don't worry though, when they do bust in and start shooting you can hide behind me.

I couldn't agree more. There is NO WAY my campus could prevent someone who wanted to from opening fire in almost any building, it is just not possible. I feel a have a pretty safe campus, crime and violence are minimum, but I would rather have the opportunity to be ready for if someone decides to open fire on campus, rather than another sitting duck, helpless to due anything other than duck and run. You can't stop it on most college campuses, best to be prepared...and right now, my campus isn't.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess:I don't know about local laws, but I'm fairly certain you have to be 21 to purchase a handgun. I don't think rifles are legal CCW.

Correct, the legal age to purchase a handgun and obtain a CCW is 21 in the US. I've heard of a few loopholes but it's a pretty solid foundation.

As a college student I support this organization as 1 of the 25,000.

~ Derek

[This message has been edited by Derek_85GT (edited 04-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: ... In fact, why not issue EVERY citizen a CCW permit for their 18th birthday? ...

Because everyone is not responsible enough to carry a weapon. But those who can take and pass a firearm safety course (with an accuracy component) should be able to as far as I'm concerned.

quote Originally posted by IEatRice: They're passing laws here in Oklahoma to allow veteran's to carry on campus.

Sadly, no, they're not. Its been killed, at least for this year...

http://www.nraila.org/Legis...on/Read.aspx?ID=3812

<sigh> Better luck next year I guess...

[This message has been edited by OKflyboy (edited 04-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Well, how do YOU tell the difference? Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out?

I would hope that any person smart and responsible enough to get the CCW permit and the gun in the first place would be smart enough to place it on the floor and step back from it after having neutralized the threat and wait for the PD to arrive so you can explain the situation to them without looking like the gunman themselves. I don't mean drop it and walk away, just set it down and take a couple steps back and stand there till the cops show up and let em know you're not a threat.

quote "The other side of that, I shoot everybody with a gun who doesn't have a uniform on and I then I end up shooting somebody who was a citizen with a carry permit," Ferrara said.

What the hell kind of context does this have? I cant imagine a police officer, nevermind a CHIEF, making such an asinine statement. Law enforcement protocol is to tell the person to disarm themselves and if they pose a lethal threat to shoot them. You dont arrive on the scene and start capping muhfuggers left and right. Hell, idiot cops out there are tasing people with impunity and you are not supposed to use them unless physical "coersion" does not work.

Seems we like to give badges out too liberally these days.

quote Ryan: I don't know about local laws, but I'm fairly certain you have to be 21 to purchase a handgun. I don't think rifles are legal CCW.

I dont believe so, considering the barrel length. In my state I believe you must be 21 to buy any gun, although shotguns dont require registration and any age may own them. Funny how powerful they are and you never heard of any shotgun rampages through Mississippi schools, huh? (the Pearl county killer used a rifle)

I'm also a university student and I support this measure, and wish to carry a CCP.

[This message has been edited by AP2k (edited 04-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Why stop with college students? There are lots of 18 year old high school students. Shouldn't they be packing heat, too? Think of the fun times at a football game when somebody disses your kids team. Instead of dissing them back, the kid could shut him up and gain instant cred. In fact, why not issue EVERY citizen a CCW permit for their 18th birthday? Maybe the gun manufacturers could include a rebate coupon to make it easier for young people to purchase that first weapon. Then, we'd finally all be safe.

Well if that's the only way then I'll go along with your idea!

When I attended a technical school back in 91 there was a girl in my class who had a pistol in her handbag. She became a person I felt rather close to... or should I say was close to. I never told a soul she was packing because it made me feel better knowing someone had defense even if she didnt know how to use it or was not trained. It's like a fire extinguisher, you never hope to need it but it's nice to know you have something to fight fire with in the unlikely event of an emergency.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: When I attended a technical school back in 91 there was a girl in my class who had a pistol in her handbag. She became a person I felt rather close to... or should I say was close to. I never told a soul she was packing because it made me feel better knowing someone had defense even if she didnt know how to use it or was not trained. It's like a fire extinguisher, you never hope to need it but it's nice to know you have something to fight fire with in the unlikely event of an emergency.

Bill! You know my sister! I got to think about that!

quote Originally posted by Cadillac Jack: Bill! You know my sister! I got to think about that!

Only if she is black LOL!

It's a very risky thing to do... carry a gun in class illegally.
I like these kinds of criminals... as far as I'm concerned, we need more of these kinds of criminals loose on the streets. In fact I trust these criminals more than cops because a cop is never around when you need on but a criminal.. sure is nice to know one is there. Also criminals dont cost tax payers a dime.. unless someone rats them out and they get a felony weapons charge.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Only if she is black LOL! It's a very risky thing to do... carry a gun in class illegally. I like these kinds of criminals... as far as I'm concerned, we need more of these kinds of criminals loose on the streets. In fact I trust these criminals more than cops because a cop is never around when you need on but a criminal.. sure is nice to know one is there. Also criminals dont cost tax payers a dime.. unless someone rats them out and they get a felony weapons charge.

Hmmmm about 5'8"?

quote Originally posted by Cadillac Jack: Hmmmm about 5'8"?

There bouts.. yeah. Very cute too.

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Why stop with college students? There are lots of 18 year old high school students. Shouldn't they be packing heat, too? Think of the fun times at a football game when somebody disses your kids team. Instead of dissing them back, the kid could shut him up and gain instant cred. In fact, why not issue EVERY citizen a CCW permit for their 18th birthday? Maybe the gun manufacturers could include a rebate coupon to make it easier for young people to purchase that first weapon. Then, we'd finally all be safe.

You've been studying Swiss history again.

Every Swiss male owns a rifle.
Switzerland was able to avoid both WWI and WWII.

Coincidence?

History is a good teacher, if people will just listen.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: There bouts.. yeah. Very cute too.

Oh.... Nope not her!

quote Originally posted by Cadillac Jack: Oh.... Nope not her!

Depends on what you consider cute. Seeing as she is your sister and all.

The private engineering school here sees carrying guns as a necessity other than a risk... The campus is in the heart of the hardest drug traffic area of michigan, with HUNDRED OF MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of dollars of drugs comes through each year. A bust a year ago found about a million worth of weed, and a few million in cocaine based drugs not even a 1/2 mile from the downtown campus. This is just one of the places that got caught in the area... the actual amount of drugs running through here dwarfs that.

I know a few cops that work the outer areas, and told me about the "drug roads" that lead out of the city here. The drug runners in the area stay off the highways, and stick to running back roads that parallel the highways. My dad was driving up one of these at a fairly high rate of speed at 4am (not running drugs, he was going deer hunting). He pulled over for going 68 in a 55, and the cop pulled him and his buddy out of the car, and had them sit in the cop car while he searched it, no questions asked. The cop throughly explained his concern, and the reason why he took the precautions that he did against them, as the cop felt there was no doubt my dad was running drugs. He got off without a ticket at least lol.

Maybe all of us should cary a weapon at the 25th; you'll never know when some punk wants to talk about your V8, time slips, or why they didn't recieve a trophy, hehe.

Seriously, I wouldn't want to be the only one on campus w/o a gun.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: Maybe all of us should cary a weapon at the 25th; you'll never know when some punk wants to talk about your V8, time slips, or why they didn't recieve a trophy, hehe. Seriously, I wouldn't want to be the only one on campus w/o a gun.

If I were the only one I wouldn't feel the need to have one. Out of all the others there would probably be at least one person who new when and how to use one and actually cared about others. The good people with guns would far out number the bad people with guns. In todays environment in Illinois only the bad people have guns.

Posted in another thread but it applies here too:

Campus Security is an Oxymoron.

Crime on Campus has been covered up for decades. Very few people have any idea how rampant it is. Only the most violent events ever make the press or even get investigated.

Anyone that tells you a campus and the town surrounding it are safe is a liar or so incompetent they should be locked up for their own protection. Parents that believe schools are safe are dangerously mislead.

The school I went to years ago had a serial arsonist. There were at least 8 fires in just one year. On the same couple floors of the same building. No one was ever caught. Little effort was even made to find out who did it.

Nothing has changed at that or any school since. The management is petrified of getting canned if anyone finds out how much stuff goes wrong every year. To make it worse... you have places like NY where the school often doesn't run the dorms. DASNY (Dorm Authority of NY.) runs the dorms. That way the schools can wash their hands of most Dorm problems. Anything in a DASNY run dorm short of a murder is probably not going to get much investigation.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

Hmmm, interesting. I concealed carried at the University of South Dakota when I went there 20 years ago. As I recall, the only places I wasn't allowed to carry was in a bar, a court house, a federal building or a police station/corrections facility. Other than that I don't recall any restrictions.

I realize the low crime rate with gun usage is more of the low population in South Dakota. I like to think and believe it has something to do with the fact that a concealed weapon in South Dakota is very common and that keeps the gun violence down.

quote Originally posted by aceman: 20 years ago.

Operative words. 20 years ago may as well have been in a different country on another planet in a different galaxy.

Was a big thing about this last year I think it was. Protests were done by carrying an empty holster on campus. I for one am all for it.

IMO there definately should be CC in schools (and in Wisconsin and Illinois for that matter...). With a good CC holder, a gunman would only get a few shots off before he would be nothing more than a rotting mass of cells. Then, not as many people would have to die.

Why are there so many shootings happening in schools, post offices, churches, and businesses lately? Because the gunman know they can off as many people as they wish before they off themselves for whatever sick reason they see fit. If you arm these areas, they quickly see that they can't get away with mass murder - suicide like that, and the rates will drop.

People worry about there being more shootings if CC laws are passed..... bad guys don't give a hoot about laws and will arm themselves no matter what. It's the responsible, innocent citizen that has to be tied down and have a target painted on them.

Kids shooting at a football game because CC laws are passed? If a high schooler wanted to do that, he would do it NOW, when he would walk away, not when everyone's packing and he would turn into a colander. If someone seriously wants to illegally shoot another, he's going to do it whether there's CC or not.

quote Originally posted by 86fierofun: Kids shooting at a football game because CC laws are passed? If a high schooler wanted to do that, he would do it NOW, when he would walk away, not when everyone's packing and he would turn into a colander. If someone seriously wants to illegally shoot another, he's going to do it whether there's CC or not.

Exactly.

I donīt ever make coments in these threads, because I donīt live there, and therefore donīt understand.This is the main point I would like to make, and forgive my ignorance regarding guns..but surely, if a student wanted to kill people on a campus, or in school, and he thinks he will get shot by 50 people when he tries...what is to stop him taking explosives into school, rather than a gun? If they can get guns in, then surely they could get a bomb in.and DEFINITELY do a LOT of damage, and cause carnage on an enormos scale. Rather negates the call for carrying guns, IMHO.My point really is that, if they succeed in getting guns in, why not bombs? If he knows, and actually HOPES he will die anyway, he will be able to detonate it without anybody realising what he is doing? And guns wonīt help then will they? (interrogatory statement ) Criminals will always find a new way, when the old way doesnīt work any more..we have seen it time and time again.
And just another question here..How much training does a policeman get, in handling and using guns? And how long must he train before he can actually use one? Just seems to me that, if that training is a LOT more comprehensive at the moment, than qualifying for a CCP, and the students are allowed to carry in the future, you might just as well not waste precious time and money taining the police to such a high level of competency...just give them the gun.Serious questions, looking for some enlightenment.
Oh, and one more thing..if it is ONLY the teacher, or some other figure of authority allowed to carry..then you'd better give them body armour too, because the shooter will know exactly WHO to shoot first, before indulging in the rest of their terrible mission.
Nick
Gun crime in general: this makes some interesting reading:

http://rkba.org/research/wr...riminal.summary.html

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 04-16-2008).]

Explosives are out of the question for the vast majority of kids. Real pyros are a bit more balanced than your average killer. If you would do a bit of digging on the Columbine killers, they had made some fuel-air bombs, but they couldnt get them to go off. If you have enough time to get your primers, main explosives, and packaging just right, you've had plenty of time to think about what you are about to do. Guns have a point-and-click interface, but bombs have to be hand-made.

Not only that, explosive compounds are getting harder to procure under the radar.

quote And just another question here..How much training does a policeman get, in handling and using guns? And how long must he train before he can actually use one? Just seems to me that, if that training is a LOT more comprehensive at the moment, than qualifying for a CCP, and the students are allowed to carry in the future, you might just as well not waste precious time and money taining the police to such a high level of competency...just give them the gun.Serious questions, looking for some enlightenment.

I would say that would fall under protecting someone else and covering their own asses. The same laws apply to police and civilians for killing someone unecessarilly. If a cop does it thats lots of time and money right down the toilet, so why not train them better than an armed civilian? Cops answer to the local government, right? Civilians answer to themselves and only in the name of self defense. That's where training comes in.

^^^^ Explosives also are much more unstable than firearms. There is a good chance the amature sickos will blow themselves up before they ever get to blow up others.


If they put enough planning into their attack to be successful or they are professional enough to be sucessful, I would hope the ATFE or FBI would have some indication of it, considering the terrorism alert status they are in now...