I'm not too convinced yet. It may be borderline, I don't know.

Here is a video of somebody getting waterboarded in a mocked up interrogation setting.

http://current.com/items/86...oarded_uncut_version

WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE FOR SISIES,I WAS A BRIG CHASER FOR A WHILE AND THEY USE TO PERSUADE CORRECT BEHAVIOR BY FORCING THE PRISONERS HEAD INTO A TOILET UNTIL HE ALMOST DROWN THEN THEY WOULD FLUSH THE TOILET,OF COURSE THE TOILETS WERE SPOTLESS..I WENT THRU THE MARINE CORPS JUNGLE WARFARE SCHOOL AT THE N.T.A ,ON OKINAWA .I WAS A POW FOR 3 DAYS WHERE I WAS POKED WITH SHARP STICKS,.BEATEN LIVED IN A TRIANGULAR CAGE ABOUT 7 FEET LONG,3 FEET AT WIDEST POINT,3 FEET HIGH, WITH 4 OTHER MEN,..OUR RICE WAS DUMPED INTO THE DIRT AND YOU HAD TO PICK YOUR FOOD OUT OF THE DIRT,,DOMINATRIX GALS DISH OUT MUCH WORSE THAN WATERBOARDING.. I GOT SCARED WHEN THEY SHOWED ME THE LARGE PLIERS ??UH OH,,,,, WE ARE A SOCIETY OF POLITICALLY CORRECT SHEEP..

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 11-05-2007).]

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE FOR SISIES,I WAS A BRIG CHASER FOR A WHILE AND THEY USE TO PERSUADE CORRECT BEHAVIOR BY FORCING THE PRISONERS HEAD INTO A TOILET UNTIL HE ALMOST DROWN THEN THEY WOULD FLUSH THE TOILET,OF COURSE THE TOILETS WERE SPOTLESS..I WENT THRU THE MARINE CORPS JUNGLE WARFARE SCHOOL AT THE N.T.A ,ON OKINAWA .I WAS A POW FOR 3 DAYS WHERE I WAS POKED WITH SHARP STICKS,.BEATEN LIVED IN A TRIANGULAR CAGE ABOUT 7 FEET LONG,3 FEET AT WIDEST POINT,3 FEET HIGH, WITH 4 OTHER MEN,..OUR RICE WAS DUMPED INTO THE DIRT AND YOU HAD TO PICK YOUR FOOD OUT OF THE DIRT,,DOMINATRIX GALS DISH OUT MUCH WORSE THAN WATERBOARDING.. I GOT SCARED WHEN THEY SHOWED ME THE LARGE PLIERS ??UH OH,,,,, WE ARE A SOCIETY OF POLITICALLY CORRECT SHEEP..

But John McCain said it is..............

Yes.
Waterboarding is a form of controlled drowning consisting of immobilizing an individual on his or her back, with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face to force the inhalation of water into the lungs. Waterboarding has been used to obtain information, coerce confessions, punish, and intimidate. In contrast to merely submerging the head, waterboarding elicits the gag reflex, and can make the subject believe death is imminent. Waterboarding's use as a method of interrogation or torture is based on its ability to cause extreme mental distress while possibly creating no lasting physical damage to the subject. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last long after the procedure. Although waterboarding in cases can leave no lasting physical damage, it carries the real risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries as a result of struggling against restraints (including broken bones), and even death.

According to Republican United States Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, waterboarding is "torture", "no different than holding a pistol to his head and firing a blank" and can damage the subject's psyche "in ways that may never heal."

Numerous experts have described this technique as torture. Some nations have also criminally prosecuted individuals for performing waterboarding, including the United States!

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quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: WATERBOARDING ... WE ARE A SOCIETY OF POLITICALLY CORRECT SHEEP..

You'll find the caps lock key on the left of your keyboard.

As to waterboarding, I personally don't care what "method" is used if it gets info that saves American lives! And I sure don't give a flying f__ what John McLame thinks about it (or his buddy Russ Feingold).

quote Originally posted by uhlanstan: WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE FOR SISIES I WENT THRU THE MARINE CORPS JUNGLE WARFARE SCHOOL AT THE N.T.A ,ON OKINAWA .I WAS A POW FOR 3 DAYS...

Are you suggesting there is no psychological component to being tortured?

Are you suggesting that the fear of being killed or maimed (by enemy interrogators), accidently or otherwise, has no bearing on the terror one would feel while being tortured (with water or whatever)?

Are you suggesting there is no difference at all between being tortured as an actual prisoner of war and being "tortured" by your own comrades at a military school?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I'm sorry, but I'd find a "Yes" response to any of those questions difficult to believe.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-05-2007).]

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-08-2008).]

Yes, it is.

I ask myself this:
Is: sleep deprivation, random durations of darkness & light, heat & cold for extended periods, being tied down and haveing bugs poured on you, being barried up to your neck and letting the tide come in, subjection to hours of disturbing images and sounds, injection of drugs that cause hallutinations, fource-feeding religiously forbidden substances, starvation, forced copulation, etc., forms of torture?

Is breaking a man's mind torture?

Is imprisonment indefinitly, without being charged with a crime, forbidden to have legal counsol, or ever brought to trial, torture?

In MY eyes, it comes to this:
NO means can be used to extract information, other then simply asking.
Good guys can't do it any other way.

Look, torture has NEVER been a reliable means of extracting information.
A man in pain will tell you anything to get you to stop.
A PAID informant produces FAR more reliable intell then a tortured one.

Everyone dances around the fact that torture is a SICKNESS of human nature.
It has less to do with information gathering, then it does with the mindset of the country/organization/person that engages it.
Just the FACT that someone is willing & able to do it, SHOULD preclude them from being allowed to.

Torture is sadistic and an abomination.
It makes of men, the very monster they are fighting.
"We are doing it for the greater good!"
The very thing your enemy claims, of HIS horrors.

"When you dance with the Devil, it's NOT the Devil that changes."

P.S. As watered down (the real deal is BY NO MEANS as mild) as the provided video was, it still made me sick. Hell, I almost started blabbing sheet that wasn't true!

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-05-2007).]

Who are we torturing now? Enemy combatants yet?

The worst possible torture is physiological. Cuts, breaks, pokes, gun wounds all can heal. The mind never will.

quote Originally posted by JohnF: As to waterboarding, I personally don't care what "method" is used if it gets info that saves American lives!

Where do you draw the line, or is there no line to be crossed?

What if someone/anyone starts a rumor that JohnF at PFF knows something that may be of benefit to American security? By your own admission, it’s then perfectly acceptable to try and extract that information from you through any means possible, torture included. Is that correct? And if not, why not?

Have you guys seen the movie, 'The Lives of Others'?

I especially liked the beginning, which shows the East German interrogation technique.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Is that correct?

Yes it is correct. The executive branch has the power to deem any U.S. citizen an enemy combatant and detain and torture them indefinitely without trial, legally. JohnF do you know something?

Reading all caps is a form of "torture"...

Uhlanstan, sorry to hear that you had to endure what you did. As far as torture goes, I think there are limits we should go, but when it comes to those that would harm us or our families, then a controlled "torture" doesn't bother me. Coddling terrorists does as much for terrorists as Hollywood "celebrities" who "feel" for their cause to embolden them. Unfortunately, I think we need to treat them in a way they not only understand, but gives them pause to consider if they really want to fight us.

Having an atomic bomb, nuclear weapons etc. are deterrents. They only work when we are willing to use them, and when the enemy knows that the consequences of their actions will result in credible undesirable action. As an added note, I believe that they do have the option of fessing up before hand, which means that they have some choice in the matter. This is one aspect of water boarding that many people fail to acknowledge before deciding they are against it.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: When we break our own laws we not only degrade our own nation of laws, but we make it easier for others to justify their torture of their prisoners too. Leading through fear, force, and intimidation isn't the same as leading through leadership and moral authority.

Well said.

There are two insurmountable problems with the use of torture, for whatever reason, one ethical and one practical:

1) It is immoral.

2) It isn't reliably effective.

It may make sadists feel good, or (more likely) it may make sadists out of ordinary human interrogators ... but that's about all it will accomplish in the long run.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 11-05-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Where do you draw the line, or is there no line to be crossed?

If there is credible info that Johnf is going to be the cause of the loss of American lives through his actions - THERE IS NO LIMITS! Sorry, you don't feel that way. And BTW - James, if the info being leaked by the State Dept is true (and maybe yes, maybe no) the waterboarding has been use only three times and never since 2003. EVERY time it was used, it yielded credible info - not lies!

Khaid Sheik Muhammed was the last one.

Long live Club Gitmo!

quote Originally posted by F-I-E-R-O: As an added note, I believe that they do have the option of fessing up before hand, which means that they have some choice in the matter. This is one aspect of water boarding that many people fail to acknowledge before deciding they are against it.

F-I-E-R-O, it seems to me that YOU are the one in this instance who is "failing to acknowledge" that it is NOT always people who have the desired information who are tortured. What flippen "choice in the matter" do they have???

Shhhhhhhh.......

F-I-E-R-O, I think uhlanstan is a bit whacked and just BSing.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Well said. There are two insurmountable problems with the use of torture, for whatever reason, one ethical and one practical: 1) It is immoral. 2) It isn't reliably effective. It may make sadists feel good, or (more likely) it may make sadists out of ordinary human interrogators ... but that's about all it will accomplish in the long run.

So are we so unbeliveably naive that we think that just because WE don't use torture the "other" side won't - com'on, hehehehehe. I live in the real world, it is time you do also. I am a big fan of advertising loudly that we will use ALL means, short of actual death of the victim, to save American lives. The victims should know what they are getting into before they go against us. We won't kill em, just make them eat pig fat for life! If they refuse to eat, we'll give it to them intravenously. If they die, we'll bury them in a pig carcass!

Alot of post here assume that the tortured acually KNOW something.
Like as soon as as someone begins to torture, ANYTHING they get is valuble!

And THAT is the INHERANT fault in not just torture, but in the torturer, himself.

People get this vision that someone starts torturing someone, and he starts lieing.
Then they increase the torture, and he starts telling the truth.
But what people miss is, the interrorgator NEVER KNOWS if the information he's getting is of ANY USE, let alone the TRUTH!
THAT is deturmined by someone else, at a different time and place!
All the torturers job is, is to pull anything and EVERYTHING from the victim.
It's not like a big green LIGHT goes off when something valuable spills out.
And that is to say nothing about the enemy changing plans AS SOON as one of their own is captured!

Just remember, it was BAD INTEL, that put us in this war.
We need to worry LESS about what SOMEONE ELSE knows, and more about what WE know.

We KNOW there is bad people out there that want to do us harm.
What more do we need to know?
Who, when, what, where?
Welcome to history.
I mean, what did we know before Pearl Harbor?
And they, before Hiroshoma?

It will always be what it is.
Good guys fight bad guys.
Good guys, aboveboard.
Bad guys, below.

quote Originally posted by JohnF: If there is credible info that JohnF is going to be the cause of the loss of American lives through his actions - THERE IS NO LIMITS! Sorry, you don't feel that way.

"Credible"? Define credible.

In this purely hypothetical situation, it's YOUR hide which is on the line, so why should I care? Well, because next time it might be my hide, or my girlfriend's, or her kids, etc.

I tend to believe that the majority of us would like to reside in a society where fellow citizens have no reason to live in fear of being tortured due to "credible info".

quote Originally posted by JohnF: So are we so unbeliveably naive that we think that just because WE don't use torture the "other" side won't - com'on, hehehehehe.!

That's EXACTLY why we SHOULDN'T!
I mean, come on, THEY videotape cutting off captives heads!
Does that mean WE should?

If you believe in God, you cannot believe in torture.

Ask yourself: Is God OK with torture?
By his OWN word, his SON was tortured.
So that we would NEVER have to be?

I'm no bible scholor, so I don't know if God is OK with it, or not.
But I DO know I don't want to think that God would be all right with me torturing anyone, for ANY reason.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-05-2007).]

read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Shaykh_al-Libi

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: If you believe in God, you cannot believe in torture. Ask yourself: Is God OK with torture?

If you believe in the Bible, and you take it literally, then consider the great flood where Noah and his family were the only humans spared. I would think that drowning all those people NOT on the Ark would be more torturous than a quick and painless death. There's no doubt that the stories created by man (or the word of God if you will) to help define his/our existence portrait God as a being that condones torture- if this were not the case, then there would be no hell, and no reason for it.

Any way you look at it, mankind overall (and with some exceptions) sucks. We are slowly killing our planet, destroying whole species on a daily basis, clearing forests, polluting the environment, killing herds of Elephants for their ivory to make trinkets... hell, most of the animals we eat are tortured from beginning to end. Do you enjoy Foie gras? I'd be more upset about how these animals are treated than somebody getting water boarded. Considering all this, I'm going to cry over how a terrorist is treated?

Do I have a problem with someone who is innocent being tortured- absolutely. Do I feel worse about someone who died in the World Trade Center on 9-11, YES. Linda's cousin lost her husband there. He was one of the last if not the very last to be found before they stopped looking and started clearing. Every year there's a special ceremony to remember him. Joe was a great guy, and a much better man than I. If water boarding a terrorist could have saved his life, I would have liked to be there to help do it myself.

[This message has been edited by F-I-E-R-O (edited 11-05-2007).]

I've dated women who enjoyed forms of gratification that made waterboarding look like a sponge bath. Unless it involves testicles and electricity I can't call it torture.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Unless it involves testicles and electricity I can't call it torture.

Don't tase me bro!

A tad OT but....
As a gag we performed the fabled Chinese water toucher on ourselves. thinkin there was nothing to it we took turns... It takes a while but that drop turns from a mild thump to an explosion! Truly maddening to think one would endure that for days on end... Not me man.. what disinformation can I give ya right up front to earn the firing squad or shot to the head.

Ahh, the torture topic comes up again.

Depending on who what and where I have to say I am for it, under the right circumstances. I am not for the blanket torture of all detainees. Just the very threat of turning terrorists over to the to Egypt has been effective in the past. These middle east guys are not tough guys just because they will blow themselves up, when not in a pack they crumble, run and will turn on each other faster than a fat boy can grab an ice-cream cone.

Innocent people will get caught up in these events I am sure, but I bet not too many and not as many by far as will be harmed because of lack of action. Innocent people are jailed or worse yet (maybe not) get put to death in our legal system because,,,, it just aint perfect, nothing rarely is.

We disgust this before here and I will have to say there were some very good well thought out arguments on the no torture side of the isle, but it boils down to some people have the whatever it takes to get the job done and kill who ever needs killing attitude and some just need to stay home and let the pros do their job. As long as enough people still complain about it we haven't slipped to far.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: but it boils down to some people have the whatever it takes to get the job done and kill who ever needs killing .

No, it boils down to human dignity.
Killing is one thing.
Torture is another.

As far as "Whoever needs killing"........................................

The quote above ("but it boils down to some people have the whatever it takes to get the job done and kill who ever needs killing") sounds exactly like what the other side might have said, just before changing our lives forever, on 9-11. It justifies nothing.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-06-2007).]

Waterboarding torture...I don't think so...

Then again, waterboarding a prisoner while playing Slim Whitman at full blast probably is. But if Slim doesn't get the job done, break out the jumper cables and the Yoko Ono CD's...

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quote Originally posted by Boondawg: In MY eyes, it comes to this: NO means can be used to extract information, other then simply asking. Good guys can't do it any other way. Look, torture has NEVER been a reliable means of extracting information. A man in pain will tell you anything to get you to stop. A PAID informant produces FAR more reliable intell then a tortured one.

And this is why we will lose, if this mentality is the one that is the standard.

Honestly, I wish this kind of thing was NOT necessary, but to be honest, I don't think many of you realize the enemy we're fighting here.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: That's EXACTLY why we SHOULDN'T! I mean, come on, THEY videotape cutting off captives heads! Does that mean WE should?

Yep! Now go preach to someone who cares to hear your whiney drivel.

As long as we are left alone, we leave others alone. Once we have been attacked - and we were - we should be ruthless in our retribution, the bad guys will think about befriending us - not killing us. We did not win WWII by sweetly and nicely talking to the Germans or the Japanese - we KILLED them! The Japanese especially wanted (were willing) to die for their "religion" - we helped them to achieve that goal! They are now our real friends.

Our army and our Constitution are both created to protect America and Americans. The Army is in business to break thngs and kill people - not deliver meals-on-wheels to the poor and destitute hoping that maybe they will be our "friends".

The jihadists have the same death wish, we should have the political will to hurry them on to their reward of virgins embracing a pig carcass.

People like you and your naivety are in the majority in this country and are the reason we cannot claim any victories since then. John Murtha and his friends are proud to have you rooting for them and voting for their ilk. Unless we are willing to get serious, we will not "win" the WOT, either.

Do I think waterboarding is torture? Yes.
Is it as bad as burning bamboo slivers shoved under your fingernails? I don't think so.

I am against most forms of torture because as it's been pointed out, a person in enough pain will tell you whatever they think you want to hear to make the pain stop. It's not reliable. The hypothetical situation where you have "credible" intelligence that this one person you're interrogating has the info on a plot to kill people is a bit far fetched. Where did the "credible" intel come from? How do you know it's credible?

But I'm a realist, and I understand there has to be interrogation proceedures stronger than just asking politely. The real question is where we draw the line.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Shaykh_al-Libi

"After being captured and interrogated by American and Egyptian forces, the information he gave under torture was cited by the Bush Administration in the months preceding the 2003 invasion of Iraq as evidence of a connection between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda."

Torture gives erroneous information?

quote Originally posted by jstricker: And this is why we will lose, if this mentality is the one that is the standard. Honestly, I wish this kind of thing was NOT necessary, but to be honest, I don't think many of you realize the enemy we're fighting here. John Stricker

We have already lost. (our souls)

I don't think many of you realize the strength and resolve of the enemy we're fighting here. It's like the Bloods and Crips. Your enemy is taking a drill to your hand. Do you rat out your brother's plan to blow up your enemy's car? Or maybe you give them what they want to hear so they stop? Maybe completely fabricated information you all agreed on ahead of time to throw them off? Then while they're off on a wild goose chase, you blow up the car.

quote Originally posted by JohnF: Unless we are willing to get serious, we will not "win" the WOT, either.

How do you win the WOT? (I assume that's War on Terror)

Terrorism is a tactic. It's not a nation or a people or a religion. It's an idea.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: We disgust this before here ...

Thank you, Dr. Freud.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Thank you, Dr. Freud.

Glad you enjoyed that. :-)

Is waterboarding torture, maybe. I haven't been subjected to it so I really can only imagine what it's like. Do I think it unacceptable treatment for a POW in order to get information. No, not in the least. There are many forms of interrogation, all of them can and do result in false information being given. That information must always be verified. Does waterboarding give us an opportunity to get more information, don't know but, if it does and that information will save American lives, I'm all for it.

"I don't think many of you realize the strength and resolve of the enemy we're fighting here."

I totally agree with this statement. Our freedoms have been gained by the blood shed by soldiers, sailors, airman, marines and coasties. If a little waterboarding protects us and our freedom from the extremist and terrorist we're now combating. Then I say, go for it. There are lines that we shouldn't cross. Those lines are IMO spelled out in the Geneva Convention. Does waterboarding qualify, I can only espouse my opinion but, IMO, that particular interogation technique is not a banned method.

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Ron

Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!