quote Originally posted by Formula88: How do you win the WOT? (I assume that's War on Terror) Terrorism is a tactic. It's not a nation or a people or a religion. It's an idea.

While in the broadest sense, you're correct.

In this case though, I think we can all agree that the war we're fighting is against islamic extremists that are willing to use terror tactics. It's just not politically correct to name them.

In THIS case, we ARE fighting a specific enemy.

John Stricker

Sorry, but some people do in fact need killing, and just what does dignity have to do with any of this? I guess you would rather be killed than tortured. Fine.

Last time around on this people actually said that they would rather lose this war than lose what "they" perceive to be what we are about. Pretty dam moronic, but I guess people are free do believe and wish for what they want. DAM GOOD thing we have the other side of that coin in charge of protecting this country.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: While in the broadest sense, you're correct. In this case though, I think we can all agree that the war we're fighting is against islamic extremists that are willing to use terror tactics. It's just not politically correct to name them. In THIS case, we ARE fighting a specific enemy. John Stricker

That's still an awfully wide net. "Islamic Extremist" could mean any Muslim who doesn't approve of U.S. policy and is willing to take up arms. That would likely cover the globe. So, how do you defeat a specific race or religion? If viewed as an attack on Islam, non-extremists will join the cause to defend their religion.

IMO, the idea of the War on Terror is as fundamentally flawed as the War on Drugs. You can't win because there really is no defineable point when the enemy has been defeated. There's no government to surrender. It just becomes an open ended conflict against ideals. When we first went into Afghanistan, we had a goal - overthrow the Taliban and capture Osama. We achieved the first part of the goal and let Osama get away. It was at that point we started turning our attention more heavily towards Iraq and the War on Terror began to take shape as more than just striking back at the leaders of the group involved in the 9/11 attacks.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That's still an awfully wide net. "Islamic Extremist" could mean any Muslim who doesn't approve of U.S. policy and is willing to take up arms.

That is exactly what is spelled out as an enemy combatant in the new legislation. This gets around that pesky constitutional religion thingy here at home. heh. It will allow us to pursue them without letting these foreign nationalists hide behind a constitution that was not intended for them and we should be able to do it without attacking the entire Muslim religeon.

Edit to add: in my reading it will also allow us to really nail any illegal aliens that use weapons in a crime, or maybe are just found to have them.

[This message has been edited by Red88FF (edited 11-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: If a little waterboarding protects us and our freedom from the extremist and terrorist we're now combating. Then I say, go for it. There are lines that we shouldn't cross. Those lines are IMO spelled out in the Geneva Convention. Does waterboarding qualify, I can only espouse my opinion but, IMO, that particular interogation technique is not a banned method.

You raid a known terrorists house. Abu mohammad jihad, a high ranking al qaeda official. He is not there, but his wife and 6 kids are. You detain them and ship them to Guantanamo. They won't talk to the "infidels", so interrogation is failing. You suspect Abu mohammad jihad probably told his sons of his plans. Do you drown them to get them to talk?

And if so, when they are released, what do you think this does for their psyche and "love for America?"

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: They won't talk to the "infidels", so interrogation is failing. Do you drown them to get them to talk? And if so, when they are released, what do you think this does for their psyche and "love for America?"

If waterboarding is done correctly, they WILL talk to the infidels. Drown only the first one, the remainder will cooperate. And why would they be released????? But if they are, who gives a crap what they "think" about America!

Worrying about their psyche instead of the 9/11 victims and their families and friends and the remainder of Americans is why we have the problems that stop us from winning this WOT.

If waterboarding is so bad, why doesn't Congress simply pass a law forbidding it. They can and they won't! Cowards all or is there another reason? So, waterboarding is not torture. If it were, there are 535 members of congress that can make it so - they won't because it isn't. It is a subject to use for political purposes - a canard for the real reasons.

Whiney, limp-wristed, self-absorbed people who want to talk to the enemy and hope they will leave us alone. Yeah, right. Like they did in the first Trade Center bombing, like they did Somalia, like they did with the USS Cole, like they did on 9/11. Maybe we could get Madeline Albright back to "talk" to these misguided souls in Syria and Iran and Palestinian controlled area of Israel and Lebonon and and they will leave us alone!

Iran's mullahs and their "leader" need to be sent a short message - the rest of these jihadists would understand they may be next:

People who condone torture are the same people who want to "turn the middle east into a glass parking lot"

Am I right?

quote Originally posted by JohnF: If waterboarding is done correctly, they WILL talk to the infidels. Drown only the first one, the remainder will cooperate. And why would they be released????? But if they are, who gives a crap what they "think" about America!

Well, in this example, you're not talking about torturing or releasing a terrorist - just his family. People who may or may not be terrorists and just happen to know a terrorist.

Just to be clear - you are in favor of detaining indefinitely and torturing people who may know a terrorist, but have done nothing wrong themself? Is that correct?

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: You raid a known terrorists house. Abu mohammad jihad, a high ranking al qaeda official. He is not there, but his wife and 6 kids are. You detain them and ship them to Guantanamo. They won't talk to the "infidels", so interrogation is failing. You suspect Abu mohammad jihad probably told his sons of his plans. Do you drown them to get them to talk? And if so, when they are released, what do you think this does for their psyche and "love for America?"

There are thousands of different scenarios that could be applicable to this situation, the situation you're describing has way too many unknown variables that allow squirming room no matter how I answer that. Drown them? Show me where someone was actually drowned during questioning. If the "family" is deemed to be enemy combatants then the Geneva Convention should be applied. Why did you ship them to G'mo? Though I maybe wrong, I don't believe any families have been sent to G'mo but if you sent them there, I have to assume you had a reason. If they are so dangerous that they need to be under lock and key, why would I care if they "love" America? Guilty by association? Don't know, are the sons involved in the fathers activities, is their any reason to believe it. Have you seen the ages of the terrorists that have been attacking our soldiers, what do you think? Are they involved or not. It's your scenario, you tell me. Being a pacifist and letting a known enemy walk up and shoot your buddy or place an IED in front of your neighbors car is not something I find endearing, do you? If those sons had information that would save the lives of your family or if you had a son there or if you worked at the next known targeted building how would you react? Would you waterboard someone to protect yourself, your wife and kids, your parents? There are rules for warfare but our known enemy does not follow them, I'm not saying we should not follow the Geneva Convention because I don't believe we can expect our soldiers to be treated well as POW's if we don't follow the established rules but, if those rules allow waterboarding, then I have no problem using it as an interrogation technique. Your scenario, how do you plan on handling the boys?

Edited to correct typos. Sorry, my fingers are way behind my thoughts.

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Ron

Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: There are thousands of different scenarios that could be applicable to this situation, the situation you're describing has way too many unknown variables that allow squirming room no matter how I answer that. Drown them? Show me where someone was actually drowned during questioning. If the "family" is deemed to be enemy combatants then the Geneva Convention should be applied. Why did you ship them to G'mo? Though I maybe wrong, I don't believe any families have been sent to G'mo but if you sent them there, I have to assume you had a reason. If they are so dangerous that they need to be under lock and key, why would I care if they "love" America? Guilty by association? Don't know, are the sons involved in the fathers activities, is their any reason to believe it. Have you seen the ages of the terrorists that have been attacking our soldiers, what do you think? Are they involved or not. It's your scenario, you tell me. Being a pacifist and letting a known enemy walk up and shoot you buddy or place an IED in front of your neighbors car is not something I find endearing, do you? If those sons had information that would save the lives of your family or if you had a son there or if you worked at the next know targeted building how would you react? There are rules for warfare but our known enemy does not follow them, I'm not saying we should not follow the Geneva Convention because I don't believe we can expect our soldiers to be treated well as POW's if we don't follow the established rules but, if those rules allow waterboarding, then I have no problem using it as an interrogation technique. Your scenario, how do you plan on handling the boys?

By "drown them" I mean "simulate drowning". Asphyxiate them using the water board technique.

You ship them to gitmo because they have knowledge you want. Families have been sent there. I can't prove that, but nobody else can disprove it either. All we have is information given to us by the government, which is a list of names. Some people who have been to Guantanamo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...A1namo_Bay_detainees

Fiz, Mohammed Hagi - claimed to be over 100 years old. Newspaper reports described him as frail and senile.
Agha, Muhammad Ismail - 14 years old when captured.
Al Otaibi, Naief Fahad Mutlaq - 15 when captured.
Al Qarani, Muhammad Hamid - 15 when captured
Naqibullah - 13 when captured

One man alleges he was captured for wearing a Casio watch. One al qaeda commonly uses to set off IEDs.

I figure, they're children. They're brainwashed into hating the US. Show them the nicer side. Unbrainwash them. Befriend them. How hard could it be to get a kid to spill the beans? I'd bet most would cave for a cookie.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 11-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I figure, they're children. They're brainwashed into hating the US. Show them the nicer side. Unbrainwash them. Befriend them. How hard could it be to get a kid to spill the beans? I'd bet most would cave for a cookie.

This is a completely unrealistic and unreasonable assumption on your part. These are not "kids" in the little fat boy playing Nintendo American youth sense of the word. Western thinking just does not apply to these "kids" nor to the mindset of the enemy in general. I hope you were being sarcastic :-)

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I figure, they're children. They're brainwashed into hating the US. Show them the nicer side. Unbrainwash them. Befriend them. How hard could it be to get a kid to spill the beans? I'd bet most would cave for a cookie.

I don't mean this as a flame, so please don't take it that way but, I don't believe you're seeing those kids in the light of day. If those were American kids from our culture, I might (might is a very big word) agree with you. The middle eastern culture is much different. Radical Muslims are trained to hate from birth and pass that training on to their own. Though I would not wish this on anyone that didn't volunteer, I think you'd view those "kids" entirely differently with a little first hand experience. But, let's say for the moment that you are correct, how long is gonna take to befriend them and them come over to your side? How many of your fellow Americans, your brothers and sisters are going die in the mean time while you're feeding cookies to the "kids"? Has papa carried out his terroristic activities while we fed the kids chocolate chips and oatmeal cookies? In a perfect world, these would not be questions but then, no one is gonna agree on what a perfect world is or, who should run it or what God should be worshipped.

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Ron

Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Though I would not wish this on anyone that didn't volunteer, I think you'd view those "kids" entirely differently with a little first hand experience.

Do you have first hand experience?

My (limited) experience suggests that kids are kids. I find the quotations interesting. Not kids, but "kids."

quote Originally posted by JohnF: Yep! Now go preach to someone who cares to hear your whiney drivel.

I don't recall EVER answering one of your posts with the above kind of rudeness you have just directed upon me.
You owe me an apology.

quote Originally posted by JohnF:As long as we are left alone, we leave others alone.

That is not true.

quote Originally posted by JohnF:The Japanese especially wanted (were willing) to die for their "religion" - we helped them to achieve that goal! They are now our real friends.

That's just silly.
Their goal was to win, at any cost.
And "Real Friends"?
Hardly.

quote Originally posted by JohnF:People like you and your naivety are in the majority in this country and are the reason we cannot claim any victories since then.

Becouse I don't agree with your stand on torture, I am "Naive" about it?
Convenient.
It automaticlly nullifies any opinion I have on the subject.

quote Originally posted by JohnF:Unless we are willing to get serious, we will not "win" the WOT, either.

Fighting a "War On Terror" is a strange concept.
It's like saying, "If we kill terrorests, terror, as a method of war, will dissappear."
This method of warfare has been around since the beginning.
The only way to rid ourselves of it, is to rid the organization of it's teachers, and start redducation of the population.
This can only happen when their clerical leaders start teaching the young, that the things the terrorests do, DO NOT come from their bible.
The War On Terror will be won by changing the ideals of the young.
But terror, as a tool of war, will never be compleatly gone.
It's just too damn effective.
It has moved the British out of more then a few countries!

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Do you have first hand experience? My (limited) experience suggests that kids are kids. I find the quotations interesting. Not kids, but "kids."

As a mater of record yes, 15 years of military service all over the world. But you didn't answer my query from above so I'll ask again:

But, let's say for the moment that you are correct, how long is gonna take to befriend them and for them come over to your side? How many of your fellow Americans, your brothers and sisters are going die in the mean time while you're feeding cookies to the "kids"? Has papa carried out his terroristic activities while we fed the kids chocolate chips and oatmeal cookies?

When you consider those men and women defending our freedoms as one of your own family, it makes a difference. At least it does to me. How many American lives is it worth to use all legal interrogation techniques to get the information we need to save lives?

Not sure why you find the quotation marks interesting but OK. My guess is that you don't see "kids" as potential terrorists or as a deadly threat to yourself or your team mates. BTW, the kids were first introduced into this by your scenerio, I expect the next question to be something in the line of the kids are now ages 6 months to 6 years old and no, I would not waterboard infants.


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Ron

Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: As a mater of record yes, 15 years of military service all over the world. But you didn't answer my query from above so I'll ask again: But, let's say for the moment that you are correct, how long is gonna take to befriend them and for them come over to your side? How many of your fellow Americans, your brothers and sisters are going die in the mean time while you're feeding cookies to the "kids"? Has papa carried out his terroristic activities while we fed the kids chocolate chips and oatmeal cookies? When you consider those men and women defending our freedoms as one of your own family, it makes a difference. At least it does to me. How many American lives is it worth to use all legal interrogation techniques to get the information we need to save lives? Not sure why you find the quotation marks interesting but OK. My guess is that you don't see "kids" as potential terrorists or as a deadly threat to yourself or your team mates. BTW, the kids were first introduced into this by your scenerio, I expect the next question to be something in the line of the kids are now ages 6 months to 6 years old and no, I would not waterboard infants.

Thanks for your service. Myself, I have never been to Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. I have no idea what it's like. With that context,

Lets say it takes 4 weeks to coax the information out of them. Is that better than water boarding a 10 year old? I guess it depends on how imminent the danger is. If 40 sources all say something is happening in 1-2 weeks, I guess something has to be done.

What I see is you're falling into a trap. Nazi's called them "untermenschen". Putting kids in quotes implies they're not really kids. They're not really people. They're "untermenschen".

Matthew 25:40 has something to say about that.

For those that have an interest. Some what antiquated considering our current enemy, it's definitely hard to determine combatants from non-combatants.

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of
International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War, held in Geneva
from 21 April to 12 August, 1949
entry into force 21 October 1950

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

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Ron

Never, never do anything or wear things that you don't want to have to explain to Paramedics, it can get very embarrassing. They talk!

We suffered a simular problem in Vietnam, with civilain women & children being used as "Weapons Of War".
Identifying the enemy was a real problem, just as it is today.
But that does not mean ALL women & children ARE the enemy.
Determining the difference is a job I would not wish on anyone.

Those doing that job have my utmost respect.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Becouse I don't agree with your stand on torture, I am "Naive" about it? Convenient. It automaticlly nullifies any opinion I have on the subject.

Ding, ding, ding! You finally got something right. We have a winner!

quote Originally posted by JohnF: Yep! Now go preach to someone who cares to hear your whiney drivel. People like you and your naivety... Ding, ding, ding! You finally got something right. We have a winner!

Why are you being such a dink with Boondawg? He's been thoughtfully posting his views in a respectful manner and you're treating him with nothing but contempt.

If anyone's comments in this thread have reeked of "naivety", it's been your own, yet no one here has tried to belittle you. Grow up.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-06-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Becouse I don't agree with your stand on torture, I am "Naive" about it? Convenient. It automaticlly nullifies any opinion I have on the subject.

quote Originally posted by JohnF: Ding, ding, ding! You finally got something right. We have a winner!

Aw.
That's just a shame.
And I thought we were engaged in a conversation involving two people with opposing viewpoints, who's weight would be judged equilly based on a mutual respect for the right to express one's own opinion as just that.
An opinion.
I wasn't aware that disagreement on the subject indicated a definite lack of understanding of the subject, and based on that assumption, nullified the opinion altogether.

I guess I have a lot to learn about Intelligent Debate.


P.S. Is my apology forthcomming?:

quote Originally posted by JohnF: Yep! Now go preach to someone who cares to hear your whiney drivel.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I don't recall EVER answering one of your posts with the above kind of rudeness you have just directed upon me. You owe me an apology.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Is my apology forthcomming?:

Now, why don't you just hold your breath and wait.

Seems like we had a bit of discussion about a year ago. Again we seem to find ouselves in a battle of wits where you seem to have come only half armed!

Oh, BTW, spell checker is our friend! Try using it.

Terrorism: "the use of violence or threats to intimidate or coerce...."

"Torture" is a word with a very broad definition, dependent on who you ask. But as far as I'm concerned, this IS terrorism.

[This message has been edited by timwdegner (edited 11-06-2007).]

waterboarding is fun! i got waterboarded twice last night; it was WONDERFUL.

...wait, what are we talking about?

Sorry you think I am wacked out.. Only a crazy person when it comes to America .I was not bull crapping about my experiences,they were quite harsh to simulate real p o w conditions..the marine corp is a harsh task master.. With all the publicity the navy seals get people thing it is a walk in the park to be a Marine,..think about what the terrs do to the people they capture.. I have seen what the N V A and V C did to our men they captured, not pretty,,Waterboarding is a mild form of torture ,,but not real torture,Our enemy is fanatical and I am a little bit surprised by the complacent attitude about this war.. YES it is a war,it will get worse because we are not fighting yet, We will only fight this war against the moslem world when the women are scared.. I went to welcome some of our troops home ,,no one was there but the families!! Sgt U. S. Newton USMC(abn) 0811 0311

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 11-14-2007).]

quote Originally posted by timwdegner: Terrorism: "the use of violence or threats to intimidate or coerce...." "Torture" is a word with a very broad definition, dependent on who you ask. But as far as I'm concerned, this IS terrorism.

Terrorism is aimed at a general POPULATION. It doesn't care who gets hurt. I can be people totally unrelated to the issue.

Torture is TARGETED at specific people thought to be involved in the issue. While a general population MIGHT have some level of fear, they generally would not think if they are minding their own business and just living life that they would have to worry about being tortured.

Other thoughts. 15 year olds growing up indoctrinated by terrorists are no longer kids. There might be a certain percentage you could "un-brain wash" in a month, but likely less than 1/4 (a rough estimate, with multiple variables making a precise number unattainable). The longer the time with them, the higher the success rate. But who says you have the luxury of time?

Waterboarding is torture. But I'm not against judicious use of it. It isn't HORRIBLE torture. I find it acceptible in LIMITED circumstances. If waterboarding was that bad, terrorists would be using it. As far as I know, they don't.

There are people here who say what tortue is......

Then there is what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan in the theatre of operations. Its two different things.
Its easy to say somthing when your at home (here) in a quiet capital.
Its totally another when your in a room getting "haji" to give you info.

Officailly I have no opinion, but (I could) Look at it this way:
Haji nailed 5 of your people. 5 Friends you trained with went to war with. They are never going to be seen alive again. I don't care what the G.C. says when it comes to that. If Haji thinks hes bad enough to take me or my people out, he better be ready for a little "watersports." It may be considered torture here, but there its a valuable tool that causes no permanent damage. So, no its not torture.

and that leaves the other thing, if people don't know about it, it didn't happen.

And yes I have been there. Twice.

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1988 Fiero Formula T-tops
CJB 143 of 1252 "factory T-top cars"

[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 11-14-2007).]

To those that think water boarding is not torture: I can't help but feel as though, using that technique, and as much time as I wanted, I could convince you otherwise. Eventually, you vocally will agree with me. Just give me a few days.

I'm serious, actually. I'd totally put it on Youtube. If you let me waterboard you for 48 hours and don't agree with me by the end then I will concede I'm wrong, sell my Fiero and never come back to this website.

Anyone interested?

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-08-2008).]

You can do the same thing just by tickling somebody, heh.

quote Originally posted by Jeremiah: To those that think water boarding is not torture: I can't help but feel as though, using that technique, and as much time as I wanted, I could convince you otherwise. Eventually, you vocally will agree with me. Just give me a few days. I'm serious, actually. I'd totally put it on Youtube. If you let me waterboard you for 48 hours and don't agree with me by the end then I will concede I'm wrong, sell my Fiero and never come back to this website. Anyone interested?

I'm interested in volinteering a few select members here, who disbelieve it's torture!
But, alas, I am against torture.
Even to give someone a chance to prove it's not.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I'm interested in volunteering a few select members here, who disbelieve it's torture! But, alas, I am against torture. Even to give someone a chance to prove it's not.

I may be one of those selected, don't know but, I still believe what I stated earlier. If I may quote myself:

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Is waterboarding torture, maybe. I haven't been subjected to it so I really can only imagine what it's like. Do I think it unacceptable treatment for a POW in order to get information. No, not in the least. There are many forms of interrogation, all of them can and do result in false information being given. That information must always be verified. Does waterboarding give us an opportunity to get more information, don't know but, if it does and that information will save American lives, I'm all for it............... Then I say, go for it. There are lines that we shouldn't cross. Those lines are IMO spelled out in the Geneva Convention. Does waterboarding qualify, I can only espouse my opinion but, IMO, that particular interrogation technique is not a banned method.

If that qualifies me, so be it. There is a reason for an all volunteer force that is pretty obvious. I'm not flaming anyone here but, the fact is, some folks just don't understand. Don't take that as a personal attack Boondawg, it's not meant that way.

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Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: If that qualifies me, so be it. There is a reason for an all volunteer force that is pretty obvious. I'm not flaming anyone here but, the fact is, some folks just don't understand. Don't take that as a personal attack Boondawg, it's not meant that way.

Not at all, not at all.
I respect your opinion.
Espiecally the way you presented it in this thread.

I know nothing about torture, firsthand.
I have never been tortured. (unless blue-balls could be considered torture.........................)
So, I just gotta go with my gut on how I feel about it.
Just an opinion, nothing more.

P.S. And no, you didn't make my list!

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 11-16-2007).]

I have fought children,they are tough ruthless combatants,methods of torture and persuasion are used to obtain information that is then correlated with other information..If you show me the pliers I would not shut up!! you must have more than one source,sometime you have to act on limited information,often we can not act be cause of morality, because of political correctness,In the civil war a note wrapped around 3 cigars told of general Lees plan to invade maryland,with some small confirmation a whole army was turned around. a first defeat for Gen. Lees men,, The far superior warriors were defeated because of an intel coup.. We must do the correct thing ..There is no comparison between our enemy and our troops behavior..I am not in favor of waterboarding..I am an advocate of turning the intelligence rich 0pposition to the egyptians,so they can be interogated in the proper manner by people closer to thier own culture,, sympathetic moslems..In my first experience with intelligence we sent the opposition members to the rear to be interogated..I recieved no intelligence from this, the rear echelon intel people were mad because we did not send back belt buckles and emblems(cool sports trophys),, The opposition team members were then turned over to our associates,whom I had the utmost respect for.. Viet Marines I guess speaking the same lanquage helped!!!Information flowed in a never ending stream,,these generous members of the opposing team became valuable, they poured thier hearts out to these men who spoke the same lanquage we then could put the etai,on the opposing team,, the joy that overcame me was better than sex..

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 11-16-2007).]

No, its just a requirement to keep prisoners clean............