Just yesterday there was yet another fatality at a school in the multicultural hellhole known as Toronto. Unlike the other seemingly gang related shootings which have dotted the cities news headlines over the summer, this particular murder involved stabbing the victim to death. Regardless of the weapon used in the latest killing, the Liberals are taking advantage of this latest incident by declaring war on guns in Canada, repeating their call for the outright banning of handguns.

I am just trying to understand how a party could be so stupid as to not realize that their lax immigration policies are largely to blame for the huge spike in gang violence and poverty in Ontario, and it blows my mind that they can take such a vocal stance against firearms yet take such a soft approach when punishing those who commit violence offenses with said firearms. It's almost like in Liberal land they think the firearm is responsible for the crime, not the person weilding it. Add this to the fact that the Liberal party has done everything in its power to hold up a new ammendment to our criminal code that would enact harsher sentences on those who commit violent offenses using a gun, and I just can't get my head around trying to understand the logic behind their stance on the issue.

Can someone help me Liberal logic? Anyone in Ontario care to comment?

The best way to think liberal.... or conservative is to not even try to think at all, just go with the flow.

LOL - maybe so Bill. I should also clarify premier of Ontario, Dalton McGuinty, represents the Liberal Party of Canada.

Forgot to include link to aformentioned article.

http://www.theglobeandmail....M.20070912.wstab0912

[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 09-12-2007).]

Again, what really matters is what you think and not how to "classify" or "stereotype" your thinking.

Maybe they need to outlaw knives as well as guns. Then outlaw anything that can have a sharp edge, or anything made from metal, or baseball bats, outlaw wood as that can be made into a bat. There will be a need to ban rocks from society as they can be used as a weapon, of course you have to have your hands tied behind your back, for those could be used to pummel someone.

Those who try to legislate morality or sanity are fools.

Help me try and understand Liberal thinking...
Liberal Jokes
I hope that helps, .

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 09-12-2007).]

The anti-gun lobby is a group of people with brains that are like a swimming pool with no deep end. They have this shallow concept of cause and effect. they assume that if there were no guns there would be no murders. Time and again statistics prove exactly the opposite but once some people get their head around an ill investigated idea they will prefer to go down with that idea kicking and screaming rather than back away and acknowledge they didn't think it through very clearly. The problem with this is that these people are so manic to prove that they were right that they will actually contort reality, data, lie, decieve themselves all in the name of being able to say "SEE, I WAS RIGHT!" regrettably, this mania has along with it a talent for salesmanship and just like the cults of David Koresh or Jim Jones these people have a talent for selling their wacky ideas to other shallow pool people. Reason is not in their arsenal of tools. The best the rest of us can do is try to educate the people before the loonies get to them first.

I can't explain liberal thinking. These are the same people who believe that abortion should be legal (killing a baby) and captial punishment should be illegal (killing a proven killer).

Okay, Fierobear, you want to make abortions illegal? Then, how much prison time does the woman get? Life? Or execution maybe? After all, it would be premeditated murder, according to your viewpoint.

That is the problem with extreme stances on issues: they don't take everyone's position into account.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: Okay, Fierobear, you want to make abortions illegal? Then, how much prison time does the woman get? Life? Or execution maybe? After all, it would be premeditated murder

If it were illegal then it would be the same as any other premeditated murder.

I don't understand how that is an extreme stance by FieroBear. Either it is legal or illegal to kill a kid. Some people want to be legally allowed to do so, others think it shouldn't. How is that extreme? It really has no direct impact to my life, although I have reasons and opinions on the subject. A lot of ot boils down to people not taking responsibility for their actions which is quite common in our soceity, everyone is a victim nowadays.

[This message has been edited by Rainman (edited 09-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Rainman: If it were illegal then it would be the same as any other premeditated murder.

Actually, the murder of a child or baby is usually dealt with more harshly. Deservedly so. As wrong as murder is, the murder of defenseless and also of the most innocent of persons is reprehensible. Beyond murder.

There was a woman recently on the news... can't remember if it was local or national. She left her toddler in the car as she went to work (as a school principal). Temps soared and the kid died. They have the woman in an interrogation crying, and the cop is going, "don't worry, you're not a bad mother, it was just an accident". She was not charged with anything, and released. She killed her kid (accidentally) and wasn't even charged! What if it wasn't an accident?

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: There was a woman recently on the news... can't remember if it was local or national. She left her toddler in the car as she went to work (as a school principal). Temps soared and the kid died. They have the woman in an interrogation crying, and the cop is going, "don't worry, you're not a bad mother, it was just an accident". She was not charged with anything, and released. She killed her kid (accidentally) and wasn't even charged! What if it wasn't an accident?

That's why investigators have jobs and investigations are conducted.

That happened where I live. The woman left home earlier than usual that morning, the day care was not yet open, so she continued on with her morning routine with the kid in the car. She then forgot to bo back to day care to drop the kid off before going to the school. I can see how that would happen. I do stuff like that all the time, although not with kids. I'll be going somewhere that might be on my normal route to work, that since I drive that route all the time I'll drive right past where I was going because its not part of my routine while driving that road.

The problem goes alot deeper than immigration policies, alot of suspects are from families that have been here for many years. And you're right, the problem isn't guns, it's who has access to them...EASILY. Any dumbass can buy a handgun in Toronto, probably whatever kind they would like. I agree that poverty is a major issue here, but it's funny how people never hesitate to point their finger at party leaders whenever something like this happens....

"Hey you, guy with the suit.....some people got shot/stabbed.............i put your sign on my lawn 2 years ago.........fix this will ya!?" if only it were that simple.

I was very surprised to an attempt by this company to put these on the shelfs, i'm sure it doesn't help youth outlook on gangs.

------------------

quote Originally posted by Toddster: The anti-gun lobby is a group of people with brains that are like a swimming pool with no deep end. They have this shallow concept of cause and effect. they assume that if there were no guns there would be no murders. Time and again statistics prove exactly the opposite but once some people get their head around an ill investigated idea they will prefer to go down with that idea kicking and screaming rather than back away and acknowledge they didn't think it through very clearly. The problem with this is that these people are so manic to prove that they were right that they will actually contort reality, data, lie, decieve themselves all in the name of being able to say "SEE, I WAS RIGHT!" regrettably, this mania has along with it a talent for salesmanship and just like the cults of David Koresh or Jim Jones these people have a talent for selling their wacky ideas to other shallow pool people. Reason is not in their arsenal of tools. The best the rest of us can do is try to educate the people before the loonies get to them first.

yup, this is much of hows I see's it too.

while there is of course the reality that less accesable weapons make it harder for criminals to aquire weapons - there is also the reality of once that simple process of aquisition is accomplished - you now have ZERO opposition, and all people are at your mercy. I myself prefer giving the people a fighting chance. many many people do not live very close to a police station. their only hope is self defense. I fully understand why "city folk" are against guns - they are sourounded by other people. and most are on edge. and, help is not far off. but, once you have 100' or more between you and your nieghbor - things change. anyone can have their way with you and your home, with no-one noticing. yes, this includes subdivisions with larger lots. the price of choosing isolation, is you also must now provide protection. a subscription alarm company is a great start. but, trust me - the min wage folk on the other end are not to bright. horrible example, not to long ago - that doctors family - killed, robbed, burned, raped. over a pretty darn lengthy period of time.

obviously - if everyone could just behave - this wouldn't be an issue. but, since we, are sending people to criminal school at ever increasing rates - the population MUST be able to defend itself from the people it creates. trust me when I say - those who have graduated criminal school have very little regard for "the rules" and have even less compassion for your well being. a gun and ammunition are simple simple machines, and can be made much more easily than many of the illegal drugs that are available. guns will ALWAYS be available.

quote Originally posted by Rainman: If it were illegal then it would be the same as any other premeditated murder. I don't understand how that is an extreme stance by FieroBear. Either it is legal or illegal to kill a kid. Some people want to be legally allowed to do so, others think it shouldn't. How is that extreme? It really has no direct impact to my life, although I have reasons and opinions on the subject. A lot of ot boils down to people not taking responsibility for their actions which is quite common in our soceity, everyone is a victim nowadays.

First of all, not EVERYONE believes that an embryo is a KID. That's YOUR definition, not EVERYONE'S. THAT is an extreme stance. Again, it does not take anyone else's opinion into consideration. Just your own. Right now, the best compromise to all opinions is... wait for it... PRO-COICE. If you believe that an embryo is a child, that is your choice. If someone else believes something different, that is their choice. Everyone's opinions are respected, and each can enforce their own. Anything else is authoritarian.

quote Originally posted by LITEDAZE: I was very surprised to see an attempt by this company to put these on the shelfs, i'm sure it doesn't help youth outlook on gangs.

Designer gang colors---what WILL they think of next??

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: First of all, not EVERYONE believes that an embryo is a KID. That's YOUR definition, not EVERYONE'S. THAT is an extreme stance.

You are right. Not everyone believes that an embryo is a kid. BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT !
C'mon, gawd, , it has a head, a body, ten fingers, ten toes, a brain, a heart, it feeds, it moves......
Go ahead, support your belief.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: You are right. Not everyone believes that an embryo is a kid. BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT ! C'mon, gawd, , it has a head, a body, ten fingers, ten toes, a brain, a heart, it feeds, it moves...... Go ahead, support your belief.

a kid breathes

So does a fish. It is possible to get oxygen other ways. An embryo has blood. Blood has oxygen.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: So does a fish. It is possible to get oxygen other ways. An embryo has blood. Blood has oxygen.

Who are you to tell people what to do with their fish?

When did I, ?

quote Originally posted by cliffw: You are right. Not everyone believes that an embryo is a kid. BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT ! C'mon, gawd, , it has a head, a body, ten fingers, ten toes, a brain, a heart, it feeds, it moves...... Go ahead, support your belief.

Cliffw, you are confusing an embryo with a fetus. An embryo is a cluster of cells. A fetus has arms, legs, etc. And still, in some cultures and religions, a fetus is not considered alive until it is born. what do you propose to do about people who have that belief? How does your plan for the world accomodate them? Or are you stating that your belief is the ONLY true belief in the world, and everyone else is WRONG?? I think there is a clinical psychological term for that.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: Cliffw, you are confusing an embryo with a fetus.

ktthecarguy, you are right. I got caught in the thought of abortion and was not thinking. The premise of my thoughts does not change though. I do believe that life begins at conception. An embryo becomes a fetus becomes a kid becomes an adult.
It is okay to kill life when?

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: And still, in some cultures and religions, a fetus is not considered alive until it is born. what do you propose to do about people who have that belief?

Well, actually, I am just a peon. The only thing I can do is speak my opinion. When asked or in this case, to counter an opinion of others that was offered. I do not protest abortion clinics, I do not climb on the moral bandwagon, I have friends that have allowed abortions. No one is perfect least of all me.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: How does your plan for the world accomodate them? Or are you stating that your belief is the ONLY true belief in the world, and everyone else is WRONG?? I think there is a clinical psychological term for that.

heh heh heh.....what a stretch. From me having an opinion to me having a plan. I am curious as to the psychological term.
As far as my belief being the only true belief in the world, well...heh...that would be like having steak for dinner everyday.
I have my beliefs. My wife has others. Beliefs are not the only definitive aspect of a person.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: ktthecarguy, you are right. I got caught in the thought of abortion and was not thinking. The premise of my thoughts does not change though. I do believe that life begins at conception. An embryo becomes a fetus becomes a kid becomes an adult. It is okay to kill life when?

well, I'd go a step further, and say there is life even before conception. every month, another unbaked human gets thrown into the garbage.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: well, I'd go a step further, and say there is life even before conception. every month, another unbaked human gets thrown into the garbage.

Not surprising to me, in a society full of people who care only for themselves and devalue life. What *is* surprising is the opposition to capital punishment. It is that contrast that I was pointing out. I hadn't intended to turn this into an abortion debate.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I hadn't intended to turn this into an abortion debate.

I had not either but it is Liberal thinking. I will back away after I joke Pyrthian's statement (in jest).

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ....every month, another unbaked human gets thrown into the garbage.

Gotta make it into the oven, .

How about when somebody gets charged with a double murder for killin a pregnant gal! That one never made sense to me as long as abortion is legal in theory you are not killing anybody!

I think as long as abortion is legal I should get to terminate unwanted lives too :-)

Just for the PFF record I am pro life. Hey, it is an avoidable circumstance! It really just perpetuates the 0 accountability the young'ins enjoy these days. Pampering these single moms on the tax dollars doesn't help either. If people saw how butt ugly their lives could be if they make poor choices maybe there would be some thinking going on.

You don't want me to tell you how to live your life? don't ask me to pay for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now here's a great thought! I LIKE this...

quote Originally posted by Red88FF:You don't want me to tell you how to live your life? don't ask me to pay for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote Originally posted by cliffw: ktthecarguy, you are right. I got caught in the thought of abortion and was not thinking. The premise of my thoughts does not change though. I do believe that life begins at conception. An embryo becomes a fetus becomes a kid becomes an adult. It is okay to kill life when? .

Of course it is okay to kill life. We do it every day. Even for vegetarians, those plants had to die to make your supper. Life may begin at conception, but is it intelligent human life? Think about this: which would you choose to save, in a life-or-death circumstance, a cow or a child? I am guessing the child, right? In other words, we make values choices all the time about which life is more important. And almost always, intelligent human life wins. In my opinion, as it should be.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: Think about this: which would you choose to save, in a life-or-death circumstance, a cow or a child? I am guessing the child, right? In other words, we make values choices all the time about which life is more important. And almost always, intelligent human life wins.

Think about this.
Suppose there were a house fire. You only have time to save one life. Your choices are a child, or one of three adults. Who would you save ?
From another angle.
Your ship is sinking. There are not enough life vests nor life boats. Are the less intelligent children Ship Outta Luck ? Would you give up you life survival equipment to a less intelligent child ?
To ask a choice between a human and an animal does not quite reflect the importance of the decision to abort a baby. I would save a fetus over a cow. I might be wrong but it seems as though you are suggesting that a fetus and an embryo does not possess intelligence. I could buy this thought if you used the word knowledge. Both are intelligent beings.

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 09-15-2007).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: There was a woman recently on the news... can't remember if it was local or national. She left her toddler in the car as she went to work (as a school principal). Temps soared and the kid died. They have the woman in an interrogation crying, and the cop is going, "don't worry, you're not a bad mother, it was just an accident". She was not charged with anything, and released. She killed her kid (accidentally) and wasn't even charged! What if it wasn't an accident?

This is what happens when jobs or things or your own self-importance become more important than CHILDREN.

quote Originally posted by FrugalFiero: All ya gotta do is watch Judge Judy or any of the other judge shows.

Well it seems to me that along with the coddling of people with the monetary support of us tax payers, which I will admit IS kind of by choice since it is our elected oafs that put in place these programs the BIG problem is that being ashamed of anything is a thing of the past. Being an unwed mother for instance used to fit that category along with a plethora of other despicable types of behavior like adultery, or really just fill in the blank_____ which no one bats an eye at anymore.

These things are embraced by the liberal "thinkers" heh.

A liberal is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air. - Winston Churchill

Any man who believes that eliminating welfare, food stamps and ADC will lower his taxes is woefully uninformed.
What it WILL do is raise the crime rate, and increase the ever widening gap between the Haves and the Have Nots.
Then we have to hire more cops, build more jails, and deal with ever more restrictive laws....
Do you really want class warfare?
Its a [not so] beautiful short sighted vision.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Well it seems to me that along with the coddling of people with the monetary support of us tax payers, which I will admit IS kind of by choice since it is our elected oafs that put in place these programs the BIG problem is that being ashamed of anything is a thing of the past. Being an unwed mother for instance used to fit that category along with a plethora of other despicable types of behavior like adultery, or really just fill in the blank_____ which no one bats an eye at anymore. These things are embraced by the liberal "thinkers" heh.

I'm not so sure it is a liberal vs. conservative thing. I think it has everything to do with parenting. Rich or poor, there are soooo many things I see parents say and do nowadays that is just unbelieveable. Flame me if you must, but I think my generation (I am 51) has done a relatively poor job of raising our children.