Any man who belives that conservatives want to eliminate all welfare, food stamps and ADC is too far gone in the propaganda to debate with.

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Any man who believes that eliminating welfare, food stamps and ADC will lower his taxes is woefully uninformed. What it WILL do is raise the crime rate, and increase the ever widening gap between the Haves and the Have Nots. Then we have to hire more cops, build more jails, and deal with ever more restrictive laws.... Do you really want class warfare? Its a [not so] beautiful short sighted vision.

quote Originally posted by FrugalFiero: I'm not so sure it is a liberal vs. conservative thing. I think it has everything to do with parenting. Rich or poor, there are soooo many things I see parents say and do nowadays that is just unbelieveable. Flame me if you must, but I think my generation (I am 51) has done a relatively poor job of raising our children.

Yes! that is certainly a huge part of it, and a lot of that is what society is portraying as exceptable behavior, really it's kind of an anything goes thing these days, and how dare you judge me attitude.

I do however believe that it is a liberal vs. conservative issue. I can tell you one thing for sure, a dirty hippie is NOT a conservative, maybe there have been one or two but I find it hard to believe since they are basically communists.

Jumping in late..

Liberal thinking.. = Feel..

Listen to a debate.. R or D.. when you hear the word "feel" and or Program.. you've got a lib

all the worlds ills can be fixed by more gov't spending.. .. hmm.. reference the VA

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Do you really want class warfare?

Actually, we have it. I am glad we do. Life is warfare. Everyday is a battle. You can give a man the spoils of victory...everyday, or motivate him to win his own.
I have been on welfare. I still could be. If I could settle for that. Some can and do. There is no reason anyone has to be on welfare for life. Some welfare should be eliminated, YES.
Raise the crime rate, ? Because people do not want to work ? If they do not want to work they deserve no freedom. Lock 'em up. That will reduce crime. It would be cheaper in the long run and taxes would go down. If you want to reduce the crime rate, legalize drugs. 80% or better of the housed criminals are because of drug laws.
The reason there is an ever widening gap between the haves and the have nots is because the "do nots" deserve and only need so much. Them nots are never gonna be haves unless they have to. That's how it works.
Short sighted is in the eye of the beholder.

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 09-15-2007).]

quote Originally posted by cliffw: The reason there is an ever widening gap between the haves and the have nots is because the "do nots" deserve and only need so much.

You would be surprised at how much the do nots do.

quote Short sighted is in the eye of the beholder.

I agree, when looking down their noses their ability to see is always tangant to their stature and never even with it.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 09-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Yes. Intelligence is in the genes and DNA.

I flat-out disagree. Prove me wrong: give an IQ test to a gene.

So, when it comes down to saving a life we need to take an IQ test ?

If some of you read the thread about the murders in Connecticut then you will also remember Conn's comments about being totally incapable of defending himself in a similar circumstance. Regrettably, I beleive him. Some people are so incapable of defending themselves from the will of others that they need our protection. Their lives are no less important simply because they are "inconvenient". This is why we have police and an armed military. So what of the MOST vulnerable citizens in our country, the ones who are growing in their mother's womb. Do we pull the plug on someone in a hospital on life support while their bodies heal because they are "inconvenient"? Do the police simply ignore 911 calls to people being assaulted because it it too much trouble to get their? Does the military simply walk away from a battle because it is easier to let the enemy have their way and take what they want?

I'm a full beleiver in womens rights...right up until those right interfere with the right of others. And the right to live is the most basic of ALL rights and therefore the most important one to protect.

You don't even need a triple digit IQ to get that.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: Prove me wrong: give an IQ test to a gene.

It is as though you do not think it is possible. Genetic research is in it's infancy.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Does the military simply walk away from a battle because it is easier to let the enemy have their way and take what they want? .

Really,,? watch what happens if the liberal Dems keep going on their present course and somehow manage to sucker enough people into giving them the Whitehouse next time around,,,,((((shudder)))

quote Originally posted by cliffw: It is as though you do not think it is possible. Genetic research is in it's infancy.

Genetic research is in it's infancy. Has your theory been proven, or is it just speculation? I would be interested in reading any info you have on this - not to get too far off topic.
If it is indeed genetic, then that means we can (eventually) medically make a person smarter - give them a greater capacity for learning. It opens up a whole new world of possibilities, and concerns.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Genetic research is in it's infancy. Has your theory been proven, or is it just speculation? I would be interested in reading any info you have on this.

Actually, it is speculation on my part. It just seems so probable. DNA and genes are supposed to tell us everything else about us. Why would they not be able to tell intelligence data ?

I find it ironic that the party that is pro-death penalty, supports the war, opposes gun control, opposes big government, opposes government interference in peoples lives and opposes government interference in business is the same party that is anti-choice/abortion. Why? Because the same party that seems to have no problem with killing some people is adamantly opposed to killing others (newsflash: its not just adults that die in wars). Because the same party that wants everyone to have the right to be armed and allowed to use their guns is adamantly opposed to killing others. Because the party that hates big government and government interference in their lives supports a law banning abortion and the enforcement of that law on all citizens. Because the party that opposes government in interference in business wants every abortion clinic (those are businesses) shut down, putting the employees out of work (I wonder how many Planned Parenthood locations and employees there are?), not to mention the negative impact on companies that make medical equipment used in abortions. So much for the free market.

Seems a bit inconsistent to me. A little of that "its a principle when its convenient" kind of thing.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Seems a bit inconsistent to me. A little of that "its a principle when its convenient" kind of thing.

Only if things are over simplified.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Only if things are over simplified.

It doesn't seem over-simplified to me. I have been bumping into this kind of mentality all my life, and I can never understand the hypocrasy it takes to maintain that mentality. To me, the liberal mindset looks at poor people's suffering and says, "how can I help?" The conservative mindset looks at the same people and says, "you're on your own." Since I was brought up in a (true) christian household, such callousness is inexcusable and intolerable. And that is why I will never EVER be a member of the republican party................................ EVER

Compassionate conservative my a$$. It is a true oxymoron. You CANNOT be compassionate and at the same time tell someone "you're on your own."

And there you have it. The mindset of at least one liberal.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: I have been bumping into this kind of mentality all my life, and I can never understand the hypocrasy it takes to maintain that mentality. To me, the liberal mindset looks at poor people's suffering and says, "how can I help?" The conservative mindset looks at the same people and says, "you're on your own." Since I was brought up in a (true) christian household, such callousness is inexcusable and intolerable. And there you have it. The mindset of at least one liberal.

"...the liberal mindset looks at poor people's suffering and says, "how can I help?" using other people's money and time, because I really don't want to be bothered with your problems but I want to feel like I care. Go read the book "Who Really Cares" if you want
to know who puts their money where their mouth is. It isn't liberals. These two statements are interesting:

Conservative households in America donate 30% more money to charity each year than liberal households.

If liberals gave blood like conservatives do, the blood supply in the U.S. would jump by about 45%.

http://www.arthurbrooks.net/statistics.html


Every conservative I know believes we as a society have a responsibility to give everyone the freedom to achieve all one can, with access to education, training, and opportunity for those who want it. It isn't my responsibility to support those who chose to spend their resources on drugs or alcohol and ruin their lives in the process, and it isn't my responsibility to save you from the results of your making stupid financial choices, like spending all of your savings creating a $20,000 Fiero. I will help you get what you need to become independent, productive and responsible. I won't help you continue to be an idiot and expect me to pay for it.



As for Christianity, Jesus never criticized anyone for being rich. He condemned those rich by fraud and deceit. He condemned those who gave no help to the poor out of their own riches. As far as we have information available to us, that seems to pretty well describe today's liberal.

The Republican party hasn't stood for anything fundamentally conservative in years.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: "...the liberal mindset looks at poor people's suffering and says, "how can I help?" using other people's money and time, because I really don't want to be bothered with your problems but I want to feel like I care. Go read the book "Who Really Cares" if you want to know who puts their money where their mouth is. It isn't liberals. These two statements are interesting: Conservative households in America donate 30% more money to charity each year than liberal households. If liberals gave blood like conservatives do, the blood supply in the U.S. would jump by about 45%. http://www.arthurbrooks.net/statistics.html Every conservative I know believes we as a society have a responsibility to give everyone the freedom to achieve all one can, with access to education, training, and opportunity for those who want it. It isn't my responsibility to support those who chose to spend their resources on drugs or alcohol and ruin their lives in the process, and it isn't my responsibility to save you from the results of your making stupid financial choices, like spending all of your savings creating a $20,000 Fiero. I will help you get what you need to become independent, productive and responsible. I won't help you continue to be an idiot and expect me to pay for it. As for Christianity, Jesus never criticized anyone for being rich. He condemned those rich by fraud and deceit. He condemned those who gave no help to the poor out of their own riches. As far as we have information available to us, that seems to pretty well describe today's liberal. The Republican party hasn't stood for anything fundamentally conservative in years.

One of the best replies I have read here in a long time - and this is so good it bears repeating.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn:It isn't my responsibility to support those who chose to spend their resources on drugs or alcohol and ruin their lives in the process, and it isn't my responsibility to save you from the results of your making stupid financial choices, like spending all of your savings creating a $20,000 Fiero. I will help you get what you need to become independent, productive and responsible. I won't help you continue to be an idiot and expect me to pay for it.

quote Originally posted by FrugalFiero: One of the best replies I have read here in a long time - and this is so good it bears repeating.

I agree. You missed a spot though.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: "...the liberal mindset looks at poor people's suffering and says, "how can I help?" using other people's money and time, because I really don't want to be bothered with your problems but I want to feel like I care.

You don't see John Edwards giving other people $400.00 dollar hair cuts.
It isn't that they want to feel like they care, it is to buy power from the poor man's vote.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Actually, we have it. I am glad we do. Life is warfare. Everyday is a battle. You can give a man the spoils of victory...everyday, or motivate him to win his own. I have been on welfare. I still could be. If I could settle for that. Some can and do. There is no reason anyone has to be on welfare for life. Some welfare should be eliminated, YES. Raise the crime rate, ? Because people do not want to work ? If they do not want to work they deserve no freedom. Lock 'em up. That will reduce crime. It would be cheaper in the long run and taxes would go down. If you want to reduce the crime rate, legalize drugs. 80% or better of the housed criminals are because of drug laws. The reason there is an ever widening gap between the haves and the have nots is because the "do nots" deserve and only need so much. Them nots are never gonna be haves unless they have to. That's how it works. Short sighted is in the eye of the beholder.

I really like this post
one thing many people seem to skip right over is the fact that there just plain old is not all that much that needs to be done (aka - work). laundry is no longer an all day event. it is sticking clothes into and taking clothes out of machines, and some folding. our shoes need no cobbling. we have entertainment "on demand". we have that ever so gluttonness concept of "disposable income". everyone does not need to work. there is not work for everyone. either way. same result.

there will always be classwarfare. just the way it is. someone will ALWAYS "take control". and many will ALWAYS support that persons control. and some will fight that person control. and some will ignore the control. you cant put 10 people in a room without seeing that dynamic start to take shape.

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: First of all, not EVERYONE believes that an embryo is a KID. That's YOUR definition, not EVERYONE'S. THAT is an extreme stance.

"How come an abortion is murder, but when it's a chicken, it's an omelet? No consistency with conservative pro-life folks... They want live babies so they can get dead soldiers"

George Carlin

quote Originally posted by cliffw: You don't see John Edwards giving other people $400.00 dollar hair cuts. It isn't that they want to feel like they care, it is to buy power from the poor man's vote.

I'll expand this comment to say, You don't see any politician - democrat or republican, liberal or conservative give a rip about anything but getting elected. When they are in, the tough part is over.

quote Originally posted by IEatRice: "How come an abortion is murder, but when it's a chicken, it's an omelet? No consistency with conservative pro-life folks... They want live babies so they can get dead soldiers" George Carlin

Carlin is from the Vietnam era, and well not really funny unless your on drugs. Are you trying to equate animals to humans by this statement? Are you a vegetarian? Ooops most of them eat fish and eggs too.

How much of today's armed forces are voluntary? heh

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Because the party that opposes government in interference in business wants every abortion clinic (those are businesses) shut down, putting the employees out of work (I wonder how many Planned Parenthood locations and employees there are?), not to mention the negative impact on companies that make medical equipment used in abortions. So much for the free market.

Yeah, you would hate to interrupt the profitable business of killing our young! Planned parenthood can burn in hell as far as I'm concerned. I've heard enough about these whackjobs over the past couple of years that I have a hard time mustering any sympathy for the well being of these dealers of death. There are not there to give a woman a choice, they are there to turn a quick buck by misleading those who find themselves the most vulnerable to killing their young without preparing them for the consequences of their actions. Employees of the organization have even said that it is the goal of the group to have every girl between the ages of 13 and 18 to have 3 to 5 abortions for maximum profitability. It is also their goal to try and encourage young woman to use abortion as a means of birth control to likewise ensure the highest number of return customers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18IKmx6wsYk

[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 09-17-2007).]

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: Yeah, you would hate to interrupt the profitable business of killing our young! Planned parenthood can burn in hell as far as I'm concerned. I've heard enough about these whackjobs over the past couple of years that I have a hard time mustering any sympathy for the well being of these dealers of death. There are not there to give a woman a choice, they are there to turn a quick buck by misleading those who find themselves the most vulnerable to killing their young without preparing them for the consequences of their actions. Employees of the organization have even said that it is the goal of the group to have every girl between the ages of 13 and 18 to have 3 to 5 abortions for maximum profitability. It is also their goal to try and encourage young woman to use abortion as a means of birth control to likewise ensure the highest number of return customers.

wow
I always liked the hot tub method anyways. the belly punches are also very effective - especially late term. and, everybodys favorite - the wire hanger swirly. and, guess what? they be free. and, when all else fails - there is always the dumpster.

but, maybe you should go ahead and glue young ladies snatches shut. or maybe cut their clitoris's off, so they wont want so much dick. or, just stone them should they get knocked up.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: wow I always liked the hot tub method anyways. the belly punches are also very effective - especially late term. and, everybodys favorite - the wire hanger swirly. and, guess what? they be free. and, when all else fails - there is always the dumpster. but, maybe you should go ahead and glue young ladies snatches shut. or maybe cut their clitoris's off, so they wont want so much dick. or, just stone them should they get knocked up.

I think you missed the point. The difference is, while I have my own thoughts on abortion, my financial livelyhood isn't dependant on convincing people to think likewise as is the case with planned parenthood.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: I think you missed the point. The difference is, while I have my own thoughts on abortion, my financial livelyhood isn't dependant on convincing people to think likewise as is the case with planned parenthood.

well, maybe they just do thing differently here....our "planned parenthood" places actually have emphasis on "parenthood" - which means bearing the child....and, how does your health care system handle this stuff? are abortions free? they are roughly $400 here. and that does not make room for much profit - at least in the scale of other health care jobs. so, yes, to keep the office open, a abortion clinic would need to get in (out?) at least 3-4 a day, assuming thats all they did. maybe they could supplement their income by making dog/cat food, eh? blech.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: .....our "planned parenthood" places actually have emphasis on "parenthood" - which means bearing the child....and, how does your health care system handle this stuff?

I challenge that.
It has been awhile since I have studied Planned Parenthood. When I did I was about to have my first child. I don't remember nuthin about parenthood. Nuthin. Bearing a child has nothing to do at all with parenthood.
From what I remember, Planned Parenthood had everything to do with not bearing a child. Be it free condoms or abortions. Now, granted (because they are required), they do have adoption references and referrals. That is not their mission. Their mission was to curb unwed and teen motherhood. It was to minimize the results of free and irresponsible sex. To lessen the fallout on society. Oh yes, and to protect the poor poor children that might be born into such a situation,


Planned Parenthood is a classic liberal thinking idea. As mentioned, politically liberal. Where are all these liberal "do with your own body as you wish" people when it comes to pot ? When it comes to topless beaches or nude beaches?

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 09-17-2007).]

yes, the actual results are usually the same as when the girl first approaches. they are already inclined towards abortion as the only option. so, yes - I can see how the perception that "planned parenthood" is an abortion mill. but, can someone provide a "real" list of options? you surely are not gonna stop people from screwing. thats what we do. maybe force them to carry to term, and have the government raise them? of course this was much easier back in the days when babies didnt have a very good chance of surviving anyways, especially if poor. but, now, even the weakest of children is made to grow.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ....can someone provide a "real" list of options?

That is easy. Or, could be.
When someone is accountable for their choices, they devise their own options. Knowing that they can opt out of the consequences of their choices should not be an option.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: .... you surely are not gonna stop people from screwing. thats what we do. maybe force them to carry to term, and have the government raise them?

We may not be able to stop them from screwing but, we can create an atmosphere of responsibility. By making them responsible.
True story. I have an unwed child. The mother tried to trap me into marriage and got pregnant on purpose. Her mother knew I would not marry and she talked her daughter into an abortion. This girl really wanted me. I told her an abortion would for sure lose me. I stuck around till it was too late for an abortion. Then I was responsible for my daughter till just recently. Paying child support for 18 years. I could have got out of that.
The responsibility of having a child, especially of a life long cut from your check, will discourage many and has. Once people know they will be held accountable. Young men are much more cautious than they used to be.
Now, I will stop short from saying one can not have an abortion. I would like to add that the father and the mother should have to have equal say in it happening.
Were we to make a mother carry to term and then charge child support to both parents, young kids might be more responsible. Even older folk.
See, here we get back to the crutch of the topic.
You give a guy food, he won't work. Why should he be responsible. Allow abortions, you will encourage irresponsible sex.
Liberalism begets socialism begets communism.
:thumbsdown:
Government should be about helping us to live together, not how to live.
EDIT
I see my daughter and her mother semi regularly. My wife even visits the mother.
Life is about doing the right thing. I fail a lot but I try. Forgive my failures and I will fail more.

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 09-17-2007).]

yes, I am 100% with wanting people to be responsible. I dont think you'd find a single person who dont want that. yes, it would be a whole different world if "pre-marital sex" was illegal.

and, there is always the other side - sterilization. everyone. and the undoing requires several steps, which demonstrate responsibility, and is expensive. of course, a sci-fi movie could be made out of it all of a sudden being "un-reversable"

good luck with getting teens crazy from their new hormones to keep their pants on, and be responsible. especially when they get to drinking (also not allowed...)

quote Originally posted by ktthecarguy: It doesn't seem over-simplified to me.

And yet it is. Instead of ASKING why one can be anti-abortion and pro-defense he "simply" asked how one can be for saving one and killing others, as if that is the same thing at all.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: And yet it is. Instead of ASKING why one can be anti-abortion and pro-defense he "simply" asked how one can be for saving one and killing others, as if that is the same thing at all.

Let's see. Killing an innocent...or...killing one that did kill an innocent.
Yeah, same thing, .
I was not talking about abortion. Sounds good to me though.
Who is someone to say what another LIFE is worth.
How much is your life worth , ?

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 09-17-2007).]

Most dont give two shitz about life except to cause anothers life to be more miserable, then they only care to make it worse.

Unless you are willing to adopt the child stay the hell out ot the mothers life and let her decide OR help by shutting up your pieholes when she has to sign onto medicaid and or welfare to make ends meet.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: And yet it is. Instead of ASKING why one can be anti-abortion and pro-defense he "simply" asked how one can be for saving one and killing others, as if that is the same thing at all.

Why don't you ask then?

And while you're at it, explain to me how they're not the same thing? How do you decide who lives and who dies? And what right do you have to make that decision? Is there an age limit? You get a free pass for 18 years, then you're expendable? Rationalize it for me, I'd love to hear you try.

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: And really, go to Mississippi people. Then try to tell me that abstinence only education works and that "creating an air of responsibility" by banning abortions really actually works as a deterrent. Go ahead and find me some proof of that. Guess what? You can't find any, because no study has ever shown that telling them no and then making them keep the baby actually scares anyone else into compliance. Or do none of you remember being a teenager and feeling completely invincible?

works for the Taliban
ooop, sry - they just kill the whole dang woman....

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: and, there is always the other side - sterilization. everyone. and the undoing requires several steps, which demonstrate responsibility, and is expensive. of course, a sci-fi movie could be made out of it all of a sudden being "un-reversable"

In fact, I like that one. The criteria could simply be a financial measure. After all, that IS what it all boils down to, really. All arguments from the pro abortion crowd end up there.

Maybe birth control in the food supply.

I have often thought the a prerequisite for government financial aid should be tubes tied or a vasectomy. That would make it a choice. We would probably see an improvement in the gene pool that way.