Down the road from me sits a church called Bethel Baptist. The pastor has a salary that is near $100,000. There are also other lead members of the church that make ridiculous salaries. One example is the children's minister. When the new pastor came in, he fired the old one and hired his friend as the new one. He then upped his salary.

Pat Robertson lives in one of the largest homes, a multimillion dollar home, in Virginia Beach. He also runs multiple businesses under his "non-profit" organization.

A church just opened up down the road from me. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the church supposedly belongs to God, but the owner of the church is the pastor, who rents it out to various groups. The same guy cussed my brother out for skateboarding the parking lot during the construction.

Is it any wonder that churches thrive in areas where there is a larger population of uneducated, simple people?

Does anyone realize or care that people like this are exploiting our system and religion to make huge money?


It's been going on for thousands of years and people have just sat by and let it go on, even encouraged it.

If I was a Christian, I would be furious. Heck, as a taxpayer, I'm furious.

[This message has been edited by Spektrum-87GT (edited 05-04-2007).]

Faith apart, churches are a super great business. Haven't seen th best known pastors riding in S600 Mercedes? Probably Bentleys too.

taxes are to pay for services. the church doesnt actually use these services. it members use the services, and the members pay taxes.

It's God's will, boy, don't you know NOTHING?

I don't have a problem with the concept of Religion, Let people believe what they want, as long as they don't try to cut my head off. I just get ticked off when people exploit others. Heck, I've given cash to keep an establishment around that made me feel "peachy", but when the people in charge of "whatever" faith act against what they teach, and then say they were "weak, bla bla bla", That ticks me off.

I think the day I finally decided to wave good bye to "organized" religion is when I saw the head priest curse out the choir after a mass (I was an altar boy). Yeah, it was one man and one situation, but If there is a GOD(ess) out there, I don't believe for a second that it/he/she has ANY interest in concepts such as money, my dietary habits, orhow much hair I grow in certain parts of my anatomy... If anything, I "worship" nature, I pray by sitting near a lake, watching the sun dance playfully along the water's surface.
I don't see much difference between most religions and the SubGenii, except that the SubG's are BLATENTLY honest.
PULL THE WOOL OVER YER OWN EYES!!!!!


I have met/spent time with "real" faithful people, and enjoyed their company.

I just don't understand the whole 'seperation of church and state" thing... *looks at some money, reads IGWT*

too much thinkin' for a friday. Now, where's that water?


-FieroRumor
Card-Carrying SubG Minister of Pyrotechnic Complexity

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: taxes are to pay for services. the church doesnt actually use these services. it members use the services, and the members pay taxes.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard said about taxes.

That is NOT what taxes are for because if it were so, many people would not pay any taxes.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: taxes are to pay for services. the church doesnt actually use these services. it members use the services, and the members pay taxes.

Incorrect.

The members pay for the services for them and their property not the churches. The churches leech like parasites of all the people regardless of if they use the church or not. Your statement would be true if the religious folks payed more in taxes then those who aren't. But thats not the case.

quote Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard said about taxes. That is NOT what taxes are for because if it were so, many people would not pay any taxes.

so, what are taxes for then? just for fun??
and yes, thats why many people complain about what services their tax money is used for.

Because separation of church and state works both ways, that's why.

Ed

Ya, the church uses those services we pay for .... for free. Who comes when it catches fire....your local fire department. I think the church should pay property taxes as well as its employees (ie/ pastor) should be paying income taxes. Neither Demos or Repubs ever press for that issue.

As A throw back to the **** shop is better for you kids............

If a church and **** shop are burning which building is going to get the attention? The leeching church or the tax paying **** shop? You better believe that church will get more hoses put to it.

Spektrum, is it you that I bleed the clutch for, or am I thinking of a guy with the SN phantom something. . .?

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Ya, the church uses those services we pay for .... for free. Who comes when it catches fire....your local fire department. I think the church should pay property taxes as well as its employees (ie/ pastor) should be paying income taxes. Neither Demos or Repubs ever press for that issue.

hmm....true true.....

I didnt know the employees dont pay income tax. I thought the only tax avoided was the property tax.
well, maybe we can turn this around - for our benifit.
since the church is just a clubhouse - how about we put forth a petition so ALL clubhouses can be tax free?
give us the goods, or take theirs away - grrrr

The property tax is free. Everyone still (or at least is supposed to) pay income taxes just like normal people.

If we are to compare the p0rn shop and the church, which do you think is going to end up with the happiest and most productive members of society? The answer speaks volumes for the net GDP from happy and productive citizens.

Benjamen Beit-Hallahmi:

"the religion label “is entirely a matter for accountants and solicitors” (L Ron Hubbard) ... The preponderance of the evidence indicates that the religion claim is merely a tax-evasion ruse and a fig leaf for a hugely profitable enterprise, where the logic of profitability and profit-making dictates all actions. "

quote Originally posted by RandomTask: Spektrum, is it you that I bleed the clutch for, or am I thinking of a guy with the SN phantom something. . .?

You're thinking of someone different. We almost traded motorcycle for car once

quote Originally posted by edhering: Because separation of church and state works both ways, that's why. Ed

So the church should not receive any government assistance like police and fire protection right? Since it works both ways.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: So the church should not receive any government assistance like police and fire protection right? Since it works both ways.

hmm - does seem like a good idea to hit that one home: set fire to a church - and then call out protests when the fire dept arrives, demanding they pay up for this wonderful service. fire fighters & police are always teetering on budget cuts.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: hmm - does seem like a good idea to hit that one home: set fire to a church - and then call out protests when the fire dept arrives, demanding they pay up for this wonderful service. fire fighters & police are always teetering on budget cuts.

You're missing my point.

Not all, but some people are exploiting our system using religion to get rich. Instating a fair tax on churches and having government audits would help curb this exploitation.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: hmm....true true..... I didnt know the employees dont pay income tax. I thought the only tax avoided was the property tax. well, maybe we can turn this around - for our benifit. since the church is just a clubhouse - how about we put forth a petition so ALL clubhouses can be tax free? give us the goods, or take theirs away - grrrr

I could be wrong on this, my uncle is a non denominational minister. Seems to me that his income from his church was from offerrings, therefore basicly like tips. And since the church was non profit organization, and he was not on a ' payroll ' he was also exempt. I thought this was true across the board and the reason all these so called ' preachers and televangenlists ' on TV dont pay tax on that income. However, income they make from performing weddings for example are taxed. I never dug deep into it but seems this is the way it generally works, and the reason ' religions ' like 7th Day Adventists and Scientologists sprouted up.....tax break for the founder / operator. Like I said, could be wrong and they do pay taxes..?

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 05-04-2007).]

"Why do religious organizations not pay any taxes? "

Because they have a very vast and powerful lobby group called "the memers of congress."

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I could be wrong on this, my uncle is a non denominational minister. Seems to me that his income from his church was from offerrings, therefore basicly like tips. And since the church was non profit organization, and he was not on a ' payroll ' he was also exempt. I thought this was true across the board and the reason all these so called ' preachers and televangenlists ' on TV dont pay tax on that income. However, income they make from performing weddings for example are taxed. I never dug deep into it but seems this is the way it generally works, and the reason ' religions ' like 7th Day Adventists and Scientologists sprouted up.....tax break for the founder / operator. Like I said, could be wrong and they do pay taxes..?

You are still required by law to pay taxes on ANY income, regardless of whether its on or off the payroll. The church desnt pay taxes on him by working there, but your uncle is supposed to pay tribute to the gubment because its simple income.

quote Originally posted by AP2k: You are still required by law to pay taxes on ANY income, regardless of whether its on or off the payroll. The church desnt pay taxes on him by working there, but your uncle is supposed to pay tribute to the gubment because its simple income.

Exactly.

They are still taxed on their personal income. The Church as an organization doesn't pay taxes, but any payroll or unrelated trade or business activity still are taxed.

Non-profit organizations don't pay taxes and their executives can make multi-million dollar salaries as well.

quote Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: A church just opened up down the road from me. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the church supposedly belongs to God, but the owner of the church is the pastor, who rents it out to various groups. The same guy cussed my brother out for skateboarding the parking lot during the construction.

A pastor typically doesn't own the church, just works there....at least, that's how most Catholic churches are...I can't speak for the others.

quote Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: Is it any wonder that churches thrive in areas where there is a larger population of uneducated, simple people? Does anyone realize or care that people like this are exploiting our system and religion to make huge money?

Same is true for most colleges, and plenty of other schools. Care to complain about all the professors, teachers, and deans that are exploiting our system to make huge money, too?

[EDIT]
Botched the quote tags the first time
[/EDIT]


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Nick www.naskie18.com GoogleTalk: nick@naskie18.com

[This message has been edited by naskie18 (edited 05-05-2007).]

here all u need is an aboriginal status card. if you're native canadian, no tax, no tuition, no problem....and i had to be german

Nobody said churches were above the law, but the rules are different for religion and it even says so in the constitution.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". Because of some very wealthy churches and televangelists, I think the impression is that every church is "rich". That's far from the case. The church I attend has an average Sunday attendance of about 65 people. Average Sunday collections are around $500. Other people give more thruoghout the year. The minister makes $38,000. To be honest, if there weren't some financial gifts given by some people a while ago, it would probably be bankrupt. At least the building mortgage is paid off.

It would be quite easy for the government to tax churches out of existence, particularly if people like you, Phranc, and Roger were in charge.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: Seperation of church does not mean that the church is above the law, only that it cannot influence law.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: The church DOES pay payroll taxes just like any other employer. It is exempt from Income taxes itself and from property taxes. John Stricker

That's what I said. Payroll and Unrelated trade or business activity. Churches may pay taxes on income not directly within their status, such as renting out their facility to an organization, business function, weddings and etc.

quote Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: Down the road from me sits a church called Bethel Baptist....

quote A church just opened up down the road from me....

quote Is it any wonder that churches thrive in areas where there is a larger population of uneducated, simple people?

It was too easy. Can you blame me?

------------------
Verdad

quote Originally posted by Phranc: Incorrect. The members pay for the services for them and their property not the churches. The churches leech like parasites of all the people regardless of if they use the church or not. Your statement would be true if the religious folks payed more in taxes then those who aren't. But thats not the case.

It's amazing how some folks are critical of churches, and scream things like "separation of church and state!!!", but they same folks are perfectly fine when churches take in society's disenfranchised like the homeless, and feed the hungry.

I think the underlying question still remains. Why is anyone concerned that churches are not taxed? Our system of taxation, flawed as it is, is based on production. If you produce something for sale/profit then you are taxed on that revenue stream. A church arguably sells faith, advice, and hope. But if the goal is not profit oriented you would be taxing what amounts to a donation of time and energy. Is that fair? If the government started taxing me everytime I made a donation of my time to help someone I'd be less likely to help anyone ever again.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I think the underlying question still remains. Why is anyone concerned that churches are not taxed? Our system of taxation, flawed as it is, is based on production. If you produce something for sale/profit then you are taxed on that revenue stream. A church arguably sells faith, advice, and hope. But if the goal is not profit oriented you would be taxing what amounts to a donation of time and energy. Is that fair? If the government started taxing me everytime I made a donation of my time to help someone I'd be less likely to help anyone ever again.

because some people cant stand to see someone else "get away" with something. yup - really "sticking it to 'em".

because they seem to think that the property tax which the church is not paying will somehow change how much they have to pay. its just property tax. if you really want to know how much you are being screwed out of: take the # of homes & businesses paying property taxes. now, divide the total collected by that number. this is the average per taxpayer. now - to see the change: add in the number of churches. now, divide the total collected by that number. big change, eh?

and - again - it just property tax. if you live in an apartment - you are getting away with the same damn thing. if you live with your mommy - same thing.....

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian:and - again - it just property tax. if you live in an apartment - you are getting away with the same damn thing. if you live with your mommy - same thing.....

Not really. The owner of the apartment building is paying property tax, as is your mommy.

Ok on the payroll taxes thing.

There are two classes of churches the way I see it. Legitimate ones and the ones owned and run by televangelists and multi millionairs that 'establish' their own for their own profit (ie/ Leroy Jenkins). Anyone can claim their a church/ religion and claim a tax exempt status. I can start one that worships Hooter Girls if I want and only have to meet a minimal criteria. There are several here just in Columbus that the 'founders' make millions, own their buildings and live in mansions. Scientology is the one that really sticks in my mind as an 'invented' religion.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: ......I can start one that worships Hooter Girls if I want and only have to meet a minimal criteria. There are several here just in Columbus that the 'founders' make millions, own their buildings and live in mansions. Scientology is the one that really sticks in my mind as an 'invented' religion.

I will join this church of yours.

they are ALL invented. this is why I support Scientology. I am not a scientologist - but I defend it as a religion. it is as valid as any other religion - including your whorship of Hooters girls and other peoples whorship of a dead guy on a stick.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: because some people cant stand to see someone else "get away" with something. yup - really "sticking it to 'em". and - again - it just property tax. if you live in an apartment - you are getting away with the same damn thing. if you live with your mommy - same thing.....

Nope, I can guarantee that if you live in an Apt. you are paying the property tax, maybe the people that do are not smart enough to realize it but they are paying. Mom will be paying too. Point is it is being paid.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Not really. The owner of the apartment building is paying property tax, as is your mommy.

yes, indirectly. but you receive no bill for taxes due. if they are not paid - YOU dont have to pony up.