quote Originally posted by fierobear: Did they teach you the important principle that "the power to tax is the power to destroy?" That creates the opportunity for the state to destroy a church through taxation. Or did you sleep through that part of economics (not to mention social studies)?

I guess they skipped that part. However, your statement is baseless. Our country has been taxing since the beginning and we're still here.

I don't know if I'm speaking over some of your heads or what. I'm referring to the people EXPLOITING the system and quite a few religious organizations do.

If some of you bible thumpers weren't so brainwashed then you would see what I'm talking about. Instead, you automatically assume "protect God mode".

quote Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: I guess they skipped that part. However, your statement is baseless. Our country has been taxing since the beginning and we're still here.

No, my statement is not baseless. If the government has the power to tax churches, then they end up with the power to destroy a church if there are any tax disputes.

quote I don't know if I'm speaking over some of your heads or what. I'm referring to the people EXPLOITING the system and quite a few religious organizations do.

Unless you can show where someone is doing something illegal, then what they are doing is legal and your claim of "exploitation" is a matter of opinion, because you simply don't like it.

quote If some of you bible thumpers weren't so brainwashed then you would see what I'm talking about. Instead, you automatically assume "protect God mode".

I'm not a bible-thumper, so your statement is baseless.

quote Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: If some of you bible thumpers weren't so brainwashed then you would see what I'm talking about. .

You are showing your bias. I reviewed the posts. Not one person quoted one Bible verse. So much for Bible thumping.

It is obvious that some of the people (many?) at the church near you have offended you. That doesn't mean that any individual on this forum, that has responded in a way that defends religious organizations not paying taxes, is similar to those people, nor agrees with how they treated you.

In your first post you invited to "...correct me if I'm wrong here..."

OK. I will. But it has NOTHING to do with bible thumping, and it has nothing to do with being brain washed.

In the vast majority of churches, the pastor is not the owner of any of the assets of the church.

ANYone paid a salary by the church is subject to the same individual income taxes as any other citizen. They also have to pay social security, medicare, and anything else other employees pay. At least that is the way it is in Wisconsin.

To answer your question, yes, many of us care about evil pastors that exploit people to make huge sums of money. But the exploitation is dominantly of individuals, and has nothing to do with exploiting the government coffers. Having a "fair" tax on churches would do absolutely nothing to curb this exploitation. And having government audits???? Why in the world do you have the mentality of getting the government involved in protecting people from being willingly exploited and ripped off? That is an individual's responsibility. And there is already civil recourse if someone goes over the line and is blatantly deceptive or coercive and steps into illegal.

Churches use services such as roads, fire protection, police protection. And a business built in the space used by the church, would generate taxes which would be available to the community. That business would pass the COST of those taxes, as part of doing business, on to YOU or whoever frequents the business. What, did you think the BUSINESS was going to pay for that? If you want a business put in there so the community could have the taxes, you just asked for YOURSELF to have a tax increase.

But to answer your question of your thread, there are organizations that society as a whole has decided provides a benefit to the society at large. As such, they want to incent them to exist and provide charitable services to their community. Religious organizations are ONE of them. Hey, check out your local hospital systems. See how many of them are non-profit. Then compare what the leaders of those get paid compared to your $100,000/year pastor. Compare what those systems make in a year compared to religious organizations.

I really don't care one way or another. Society can change the laws and get rid of the non-profit status. It is just an interesting thing that you decided to single out ONE of many non-profit organizations because they have ticked you off.

Well, quite honestly, I'm sorry they ticked you off and offended you on a personal level. And I am serious about that. But when you are willing to set that deep seated and intense personal part of it aside, there is a legitimate discussion to be had that you brought up. Did you want to have it, or did you just want to vent?

Really?

Why don't you give the Hooter's Girls church a try, Roger, and see just how that goes over with the IRS and state and local tax boards.

It's not as easy as you make it out to be. Is there fraud and deception in some cases? Yep. Of course, there is for anyone with a small business as well that's paying for things like gas for a business vehicle that's being used for personal use. Somehow, though, that's OK, that's just working the system.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Ok on the payroll taxes thing. There are two classes of churches the way I see it. Legitimate ones and the ones owned and run by televangelists and multi millionairs that 'establish' their own for their own profit (ie/ Leroy Jenkins). Anyone can claim their a church/ religion and claim a tax exempt status. I can start one that worships Hooter Girls if I want and only have to meet a minimal criteria. There are several here just in Columbus that the 'founders' make millions, own their buildings and live in mansions. Scientology is the one that really sticks in my mind as an 'invented' religion.