quote Originally posted by Dumbass: Well, since his blood flows through my veins I think I have a more personal insight into the man than most.

More like his blood is polluted by your veins
--------------------------------------------------------

This is now.....

quote "You arent free and you don't live in a free country. Not only are you a slave but you are a bobble head nodding in total agreement with the powers that be who tell you how to think, how to speek how to act. You are bombarded by your masters bullcrap every waking moment of you existance. They control everything you do, no matter what you do and where you "choose" to do it. You cant even walk down the street anymore without official "papers" proving you are who you say you are... to be submitted upon "lawful" command. Freedom has been revoked. It has been replaced by a contract, a "privilage" that you.. and me have signed that is subject to revocation on a whim so you have no choice but to go along with it. "

quote Here is Jefferson's take: "No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws outright restrain him; every man in under the natural duty of contributing to the necessities of the society, and this is all the laws should enforce on him; and no man having a natural right to be the judge between himself and another, it is his natural duty to submit to the umpirage of an impartial third."!!!

That was then.

---------------------------------------------
This is now...

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Can you please stop quoting Jefferson

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I will quote WHOEVER I want.. This is a free country and you have the right to ignore me but YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL ME WHO I MAY OR MAY NOT QUOTE. You are NOT my master you god damn mother ****ing son of a ***** ! Am I making myself perfectly CLEAR!

------------------------------------

quote Here is Jefferson's take: "No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws outright restrain him; every man in under the natural duty of contributing to the necessities of the society, and this is all the laws should enforce on him; and no man having a natural right to be the judge between himself and another, it is his natural duty to submit to the umpirage of an impartial third."!!!

That was then
----------------------------------

You are an assbag Retardster.
You violate my civil liberties in request that I remain silent then accuse me of an aggression against YOU in my rightful defence of them.

You are a pathetic little weanie, You are far far right of impartial.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 09-13-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: That was then

Oh I see, so what you are saying is that Jefferson would think totally opposite of what he thought back then and would think like YOU... if he was alive today.



yeah, that makes sense.

No...

I'm saying that YOU are thinking the total opposite.


TJ's words have not change in 200 years. Yours have. You ignore the rights of others. Especially mine. "Shut up" is a demand that I be silent and is a violation of Amendment NUMBER 1!!!!

quote Originally posted by Clueless: Oh I see, so what you are saying is that Jefferson would think totally opposite of what he thought back then and would think like YOU... if he was alive today. yeah, that makes sense.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: No... I'm saying that YOU are thinking the total opposite. TJ's words have not change in 200 years. Yours have. You ignore the rights of others. Especially mine. "Shut up" is a demand that I be silent and is a violation of Amendment NUMBER 1!!!!

Wrong again brain bone. It is the free exercise of MY right to free speech to tell you to shut up. If you don't like the message, tough **** . Change the channel...or as Jefferson might say:

"My opinion of the manner in which a newspaper should be conducted so as to be most useful [is]... 'by restraining it to true facts and sound principle only.' Yet I fear such a paper would find few subscribers. It is a melancholy truth, that a suppression of the press could not more completely deprive the nation of its benefits than is done by its abandoned prostitution to falsehood." --Thomas Jefferson to John Norvell, 1807. ME 11:224

But you still haven't answered the question:

How do you reconcile your blabbering with Jefferson's position that you OWE a duty to your society to submit to the law.

In case you have forgotten I will repost the two messages again...and again if necessary:

quote Originally posted by Blabberboy: "You arent free and you don't live in a free country. Not only are you a slave but you are a bobble head nodding in total agreement with the powers that be who tell you how to think, how to speek how to act. You are bombarded by your masters bullcrap every waking moment of you existance. They control everything you do, no matter what you do and where you "choose" to do it. You cant even walk down the street anymore without official "papers" proving you are who you say you are... to be submitted upon "lawful" command. Freedom has been revoked. It has been replaced by a contract, a "privilage" that you.. and me have signed that is subject to revocation on a whim so you have no choice but to go along with it. "

Here is Jefferson's take:

quote Originally stated by a man of reason: "No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws outright restrain him; every man is under the natural duty of contributing to the necessities of the society, and this is all the laws should enforce on him; and no man having a natural right to be the judge between himself and another, it is his natural duty to submit to the umpirage of an impartial third."!!!

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 09-13-2006).]

I feel like I'm a spectator watching two Jeffersons having a peeing contest.

- - - - - - - -
^
|
|
|

Which ever one of you can pee above this line, you win.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 09-13-2006).]

quote Originally posted by fierobear: The first amendment is to keep the government from abridging your right to free speech.

Not just the government. All rights are equal. That means not even I can tell you what you can or can not say.

quote I'd be willing to bet that the people who wrote the bill of rights didn't intend to keep you from knocking your obnoxious neighbor's teeth out if he kept shooting off his mouth like Bill does.

While that did happen many times.. and in certin states it still does, the rights of the individual are still supposed to be secure.

Evidentally you didn't read the dialogue between Formula88 and myself

quote Consideration is granted to everyone equally. It's a given, I will vociferously demand it when I feel I'm not getting it. I expect the same of you.. in fact I demand it of you. I respect you as an individual, I respect your rights. However, I do not have to agree with you to show my respect for you. I vociferously demand the same of you. Either we stand united and enjoy the rewards or we fall divided and suffer the results. Like it or not, the ground we stand on will be common and level.... and we WILL share it equally.

We do not have to agree in order to show respect for our differences. The "common ground" is the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

I can not harm him, I can not take his papers or money or house, I can not silence him with a fist or a rock or even threaten the use of them in order to silence him or sway his opinion.

But that will ONLY WORK if we both understand and respect each others rights. We can argue for decades but we will stand on common ground and work out what needs to be worked out between us.

That is what the founders did when they drafted the Constitution.. For years the bickered, not one man was injured.. They practiced what they preached and put it in the Constitution.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 09-14-2006).]

Oh, yes, Bill, you are SUCH a courageous Patriot.

You PM me telling me I'm a heckler. I respond with a brief PM to you. You send me back another page of diatribe (twice, for some reason) and then block my PM's.

What a hero you must be in your own mind. Does the truth hurt you that much that you can't even hear it?

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: We do not have to agree in order to show respect for our differences. The "common ground" is the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I can not harm him, I can not take his papers or money or house, I can not silence him with a fist or a rock or even threaten the use of them in order to silence him or sway his opinion. But that will ONLY WORK if we both understand and respect each others rights. We can argue for decades but we will stand on common ground and work out what needs to be worked out between us. That is what the founders did when they drafted the Constitution.. For years the bickered, not one man was injured.. They practiced what they preached and put it in the Constitution.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: That is what the founders did when they drafted the Constitution.. For years the bickered, not one man was injured.. They practiced what they preached and put it in the Constitution.

Amazing how he crows on about the Constitution, but considers G. Washington and our revolutionary war to be terrorism on par with the actions of Bin Laden. The horseshit pile doesn't get much taller than that.

It's a matter of perspective.

Much like Tarddster.. you lack it.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Amazing how he crows on about the Constitution, but considers G. Washington and our revolutionary war to be terrorism on par with the actions of Bin Laden. The horseshit pile doesn't get much taller than that.

still waiting for an answer:

quote Originally posted by Blabberboy: "You arent free and you don't live in a free country. Not only are you a slave but you are a bobble head nodding in total agreement with the powers that be who tell you how to think, how to speek how to act. You are bombarded by your masters bullcrap every waking moment of you existance. They control everything you do, no matter what you do and where you "choose" to do it. You cant even walk down the street anymore without official "papers" proving you are who you say you are... to be submitted upon "lawful" command. Freedom has been revoked. It has been replaced by a contract, a "privilage" that you.. and me have signed that is subject to revocation on a whim so you have no choice but to go along with it. "

quote Originally stated by Thomas Jefferson: "No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws outright restrain him; every man is under the natural duty of contributing to the necessities of the society, and this is all the laws should enforce on him; and no man having a natural right to be the judge between himself and another, it is his natural duty to submit to the umpirage of an impartial third."!!!

Well Bill, you seem to be enjoying talking to yourself, when are you going to reconcile your blabbering with Jefferson's position. Afraid your feeble brain will blow a fuse?

quote Originally posted by Toddster: still waiting for an answer:

Whats the problem?

Answer does not compute?

quote Well Bill, you seem to be enjoying talking to yourself, when are you going to reconcile your blabbering with Jefferson's position. Afraid your feeble brain will blow a fuse?

LOL!!
Must be why I use the QUOTE button every time I write reply... Just talking to walls.. Yup, thats me!

Flying the flag is ALWAYS important.

But always flying the flag numbs us.

My little boy has this Seseme Street video Where Elmo wishes it could be Christmas everyday, and how after a while, you loose it's meaning.

I think what Bill is actually trying to get across is, if your going to do something, like fly the flag, or vote.... whatever..... Know why you are doing so. Make it an meaningfull thing to you.

I fly mine everyday.... and a year or so ago, I hadn't even noticed it was freying... Why... Because I got so use to it being there.

Anyway . . . If you people are done once again trampling a September 11th thread I thought I would post the original message again.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: I know I don't have to remind anyone of this but I'm doing it anyway. Fly the Flag, Support our Troops! Please join us in this FLY THE FLAG campaign. We have less than 24 hours and counting to get the word out all across this great land and into every community in the United States of America. THE PROGRAM IS THIS: On Monday, September 11th, 2006, an American flag should be displayed outside every home, apartment, office, and store in the United States. Every individual should make it their duty to display an American flag on this fifth anniversary of our country's worst tragedy. We do this in honor of those who lost their lives on 9/11, their families, friends and loved ones who continue to endure the pain, and those who today are fighting at home and abroad to preserve our cherished freedoms. Thank you.

I do have a question regarding the care and respect of the flag for anyone who is informed on this matter.
I have a very large U.S flag originally flown on an active military ship during a time of war. This flag is about 40 years old and the thread condition is in good shape.
The problem is this. There are several holes from enemy fire and the end is tattered from the wind.I have flown this flag often and didn't feel it was disrespectful to fly it in said condition because I felt it had history.
I have been told it was inproper to fly our flag in this condition so I have not but still feel there is a need to see the truth about war and the scars we have endured.
Is it ok to fly this flag?
Should it be retired?
Should it be repaired?

I intend to place a large flag pole here at the ranch and thought it would be nice to take down the new flag and fly this one during heightened anniversaries such as Sep 11,feb 1,Jan 28,Apr19,Jan27,Dec 7,Memorial day ect..

------------------
PLAY HARD-DIE FAST And folks always remember to eat before driving on the coast.If you fly off the cliff and no one finds you the only thing worse than knowing you are going to bleed to death alone is to do it hungry.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Anyway . . . If you people are done once again trampling a September 11th thread I thought I would post the original message again. I do have a question regarding the care and respect of the flag for anyone who is informed on this matter. I have a very large U.S flag originally flown on an active military ship during a time of war. This flag is about 40 years old and the thread condition is in good shape. The problem is this. There are several holes from enemy fire and the end is tattered from the wind.I have flown this flag often and didn't feel it was disrespectful to fly it in said condition because I felt it had history. I have been told it was inproper to fly our flag in this condition so I have not but still feel there is a need to see the truth about war and the scars we have endured. Is it ok to fly this flag? Should it be retired? Should it be repaired? I intend to place a large flag pole here at the ranch and thought it would be nice to take down the new flag and fly this one during heightened anniversaries such as Sep 11,feb 1,Jan 28,Apr19,Jan27,Dec 7,Memorial day ect..

Why don't you take this flag and have it framed in a picture frame with a little historical certificate or statement attesting what the flag had gone through on the ship. As for flying it, contact your local American Legion in town or the VFW. Either veterans org. would be more than happy to explain to you the proper method of display for that flag.
Additionally the VFW and American Legion both respectfully retire Flags no longer suitable for flying.

S. Williams

------------------
1988 Fiero Formula T-tops
CJB 143 of 1252 "factory T-top cars"

quote Originally posted by intlcutlass: Flying the flag is ALWAYS important. But always flying the flag numbs us. My little boy has this Seseme Street video Where Elmo wishes it could be Christmas everyday, and how after a while, you loose it's meaning. I think what Bill is actually trying to get across is, if your going to do something, like fly the flag, or vote.... whatever..... Know why you are doing so. Make it an meaningfull thing to you. I fly mine everyday.... and a year or so ago, I hadn't even noticed it was freying... Why... Because I got so use to it being there.

Intlcutlas,
If you followed the complete thread and if you followed any of Bill's ramblings over any issue involving the "government", he stays very consistent. He's pro Bill, anti anything that may keep him from, (working from memory here) speeding as fast as he wants to, smoking dope or using dope, he's anti business management and doesn't seem to understand why he doesn't have all his needs taken care of and eveyone else is wrong on virtually everything that he doesn't agree with. Bill is a lonely, delusional person in serious need of some care that he apparently can't get living at home with his parents. He also refuses to agree with anything that might involve fighting to protect this nation. He's a coward and a social outcast. That just about covers what I remember from past threads. Why, who knows, he simply wants to be king and rather than accepting that he has a social responsibility to give as much as he gets, he'd rather rant and cuss folks out. Yep, Bill would be an interesting case to study if he weren't so pathetic. This thread was started to honor the losses of 9/11 and honor those who have volunteered to serve to protect our nation. I asked Bill to let this happen, he just couldn't let it go. If I get flamed for stating the way I see this, so be it but, I'd remind everyone that they have allowed or encouraged Bill to insult just about everything this country stands for. I am not saying that Bill doesn't have the right to say the things he has said, just that he's really needing some help.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: I do have a question regarding the care and respect of the flag for anyone who is informed on this matter. I have a very large U.S flag originally flown on an active military ship during a time of war. This flag is about 40 years old and the thread condition is in good shape. The problem is this. There are several holes from enemy fire and the end is tattered from the wind.I have flown this flag often and didn't feel it was disrespectful to fly it in said condition because I felt it had history. I have been told it was inproper to fly our flag in this condition so I have not but still feel there is a need to see the truth about war and the scars we have endured. Is it ok to fly this flag? Should it be retired? Should it be repaired? I intend to place a large flag pole here at the ranch and thought it would be nice to take down the new flag and fly this one during heightened anniversaries such as Sep 11,feb 1,Jan 28,Apr19,Jan27,Dec 7,Memorial day ect..

One of the jobs I had in the Navy was to create memorial boxes for Flags, most of them were for new flags but some were for retired flags. They were then given to retired E-6 and above. I created a lot of those triangle boxes. They would have little brass plates with the enlistment of the retired Sailor or the name of the ship. This was a pretty wide practice from what I was told. The flags would be folded in such a way that the stars would be displayed in the middle and a red or white strip could be seen on the sides. It was not the normal way of folding the flag but it looked good. We would use a piece of cardboard as a pattern.
That is a good final resting place for any flag. Just fold it up in a triangle and make a box to fit it. Then put on some nice molding and your done. You can even add a light like the ones put at the bottom of pictures to light it up. I got out of the Navy as an E-3 so I didnt get one but I may one day make my own.

Turn on the Montel Williams show this afternoon. He has the flag from his father's coffin displays in the triangular box as described above.

Here is a link to a place that sells the cases.
http://www.united-states-flag.com/flcafor3ftx5.html

quote Originally posted by Songman: Turn on the Montel Williams show this afternoon. He has the flag from his father's coffin displays in the triangular box as described above. Here is a link to a place that sells the cases. http://www.united-states-flag.com/flcafor3ftx5.html

Those are exactly like the ones that I made. I would sometimes use crown molding instead of the small round molding but the box was always the same.
I used oak but you can make them out of anything. Mahogany or Walnut were my favorite to work with. Inlay some white maple and it looked great.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 09-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Those are exactly like the ones that I made. I would sometimes use crown molding instead of the small round molding but the box was always the same. I used oak but you can make them out of anything. Mahogany or Walnut were my favorite to work with. Inlay some white maple and it looked great.

That's really cool, I've seen it before but didn't realize it was intended for retirees. Nice touch.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Anyway . . . If you people are done once again trampling a September 11th thread I thought I would post the original message again.

Sorry, It's just my week to ***** slap 84Bill.

quote Should it be repaired?

NO!

That is pure history man. But I wouldn't fly it again in order to preserve it. I'd go with the suggestion above to frame it.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: That's really cool, I've seen it before but didn't realize it was intended for retirees. Nice touch.

If you knew the right E-3 to ask you may even leave with a small brass bell as well

Thanks guys. Good advice.
I didn't want to have it repaired basically because I kind of feel like I was saying I was ashamed of it. I am not. I think we al forget our pain and the pains of others to often and would have the scars of history to remind us but it seems the general concensus not to have her fly. I'm not sure I agree to never fly her but do agree there must be a level of respect excepted by those that care. I do so I will adhere.

I like those triangle cases so I think I will get one.

As far as remembering 9\11 I keep a commemorative 911 flag posted in my GT right in the front of the roof light so I see it every day.

Yeah, I would definitely not fly it again. In part for respect of the flag, but also to preserve it. The tears and tattering can be worsened by continued flying, and I think it's condition should be preserved due to it's history.

The triangle flag box is a good idea. I have the flag from my father's coffin in one such box in my living room.
I'd also consider talking to the local VFW about the best way to display and preserve it. Perhaps they would want to fly it over the VFW on a special date before it's retired?

Given that it's history is visible in the wear and tear, you might consider a large frame to display it unfolded. But again, I'd check with the VFW to make sure that would be a proper display.

Betsy Ross' Star Spangled Banner was displayed hanging at the Smithsonian. I would think that if you want to display it hanging, it would be proper. I think I might put it behind glass though if you wanted to do that.. And don't put it in sunlight that will fade it.

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 09-14-2006).]

What Songman and formula 88 said regarding no repair. Does the boat it was flown on have an Alumni Association?
If so they may be interested.

[This message has been edited by Wolfhound (edited 09-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: I didn't want to have it repaired basically because I kind of feel like I was saying I was ashamed of it. I am not. I think we al forget our pain and the pains of others to often and would have the scars of history to remind us but it seems the general concensus not to have her fly. I'm not sure I agree to never fly her but do agree there must be a level of respect excepted by those that care. I do so I will adhere.

Pokey,
I'm sure you can display it similar to what Songman has suggested, I just haven't found the right site to provide you with the standards. Haven't given up but if I don't find it, someone will. Continued flying of the flag will obviously cause futher degradation and I feel very certain a damaged flag is not supposed to be flown but due to it's historical significance, I am also very sure that you can and should display it.

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Intlcutlas, If you followed the complete thread and if you followed any of Bill's ramblings over any issue involving the "government", he stays very consistent. This thread was started to honor the losses of 9/11 and honor those who have volunteered to serve to protect our nation.

Well thank you.... I am prior Navy ----

I would agree with you that "as a person" he sounds to be biter and lonely, but I also have to tell you that from time to time he makes a good argument. And for that reason ALONE, and the ensuing debates, it makes one both thankfull and aware of what they have. Thats the great thing about it here. His little blurb about perspective at the bottom of his comments is not wrong. And the more aware one is to different points of view, EVEN if they are wrong, leads to profound thoughts and ideas.

quote Originally posted by intlcutlass: I would agree with you that "as a person" he sounds to be biter and lonely,

I'm no different than anyone else, we all get bummed out from time to time... don't we? Though I'm the only person sitting in this room at present, it doesn't mean that I am alone or lonely. Though I get angery at times with certin things or happenings (past or present) that does not make me bitter.

Even IF I were, I don't see how my emotional state relates to this thread, what I'm writing or why I'm writing it.

It's not about me. Never was, never will be.
It's about US, We The People.

The dill heads that constantly point the finger at me and say otherwise are the worst because their minds are already made up..
Closed, locked down and ready to do battle to prove they are right and will fight tooth an nail to defend it. Whats really screwed up is I'm expected to run headlong into the brick walls suroundig their perceptions of me in order to change it... HA!!! Fat effin chance!
And you wanna talk about bitterness intlcutlass? Try being on the recieving end of some of the crap I get on here and you will see enough bitterness to last a lifetime!

Somtimes it gets to me and I retaliate even though I KNOW it's not going to change ANYTHING exept to make me look bad. I don't care... even after the fact as I watch my accept-O-Meter climb......I'm very aware of what I am doing and why I'm doing it. I like it that way.

quote I also have to tell you that from time to time he makes a good argument. And for that reason ALONE, and the ensuing debates, it makes one both thankfull and aware of what they have. Thats the great thing about it here.

Thanks.
And yes, I do agree. Thats what makes PFF so great.

quote His little blurb about perspective at the bottom of his comments is not wrong. And the more aware one is to different points of view, EVEN if they are wrong, leads to profound thoughts and ideas.

I think you are refering to this quote from another thread. "Perspective is the ability to understand anothers point of view." - 84Bill
Perspective in that quote can be substituted for empathy.

Right or Wrong is a matter of perspective the only real way to know is to be empathic enough.
Most people cant crawl out of their skin long enough to ask how their wifes day went let alone actually listen and comprehend. There are some but thats usually where it ends, everyone else is just a boreass.

Tiny minds running in nice neat tight little circles. The chaotic world is out there and they are tucked away all safe and sound with the usual predictions... status quoe...

Ahh yessss.. Just another Pleasent Valley Sunday....

Until 84Bill comes along.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: It's a matter of perspective. Much like Tarddster.. you lack it.

As in YOUR perspective? I'd never want to be THAT TWISTED.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: As in YOUR perspective?

I'm VERY perceptive. You underestimate my ability every time.

quote I'd never want to be THAT TWISTED.

Thats good.. because you never will. You are one of the incapable few.
Unlike many others who show potential, have it but don't understand it or like me.. have it, understand it and use it.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Thats good.. because you never will. You are one of the incapable few. Unlike many others who show potential, have it but don't understand it or like me.. have it, understand it and use it.

And THATS why I said you do seem biter/lonely. You ARE perseptive, BUT your pessimistic insolence pisses people off (not that there's anything wrong with that), but your comments are insulting, and if your as smart as you think you are, then you have to see the higher road here. Don't brag about how very smart you are, and how others are incapable, a true intelect would aid others, not condesend them.


OOooo I forgot to add..... Twisted is a good thing.

[This message has been edited by intlcutlass (edited 09-15-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Thats good.. because you never will. You are one of the incapable few. Unlike many others who show potential, have it but don't understand it or like me.. have it, understand it and use it.

I DON'T WANT to understand you. It would be too much like understanding Charles Manson. I'm sure he feels just as misunderstood as you. No thanks.

fierobear, Shut up!

God, I love free speech.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: fierobear, Shut up! God, I love free speech.