Why else would he behave this way? Against the will of an OVERWHELMING majority of the American people. (61% vs 30% according to Gallup), Today Mr. Bush again pandered to the extreme religious anti abortion base and used his very first ever veto to kill federally sponsored stem cell research. This goes against good business sense as well as "compassion" because the Chinese, as well as others, ARE working on this. They, not the USA, will own this technology and the cures for terrible diseases that it promises. He WON'T veto wasteful, pork laden spending bills that make his buddies rich, but he WILL kowtow to the "back to the past" God Goobers. http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/19/stemcells.veto/index.html And he did the historic, small minded deed in private. Do you blame him?
OK, it won't actually DO anything, but it feels good. The new administration, whomever they may be, will have their work cut out for them cleaning up after this walking disaster.
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 07-19-2006).]
He only hates poor Americans, which is funny since he's making oh so many more of them than ever before.
It's funny, the people that say that a clump of cells is a full human being and fight for bioscience Luddism are the same people that have no problem using bombs and chemical war terrorism on home soil to kill cops.
Why is it that you ASSUME that without the US Government paying for it, nothing is being done with this research?
Stem cell research has not been banned. Even embryonic stem cell research has not been banned (although it has yet to yield any significant results of any kind that couldn't be done with other stem cells). It's just that the US Government won't pay for that research.
Big deal.
You guys need to realize that the government is woefully inept at most things it does and most likely, better and faster results will come without their intervention. You can get disgusted and mad all you want but who do you think is going to sign the "moron petition"? Oh, yeah, the same people that run around circulating every other damn petition that doesn't accomplish anything either.
You may, or may not, agree with Pres. Bush's opinion that an embryo is a life. I'm not sure I do, but he does and he's said that from the first day he came into office and all during his first campaign. Now you want to get mad. Big whoopdedo. Get mad, if it makes you feel better. If it was Bill Clinton doing the same thing (vetoing something that has popular support) you'd be praising his courage and the way he "ignores the polls".
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by NEPTUNE:
Why else would he behave this way? Against the will of an OVERWHELMING majority of the American people. (61% vs 30% according to Gallup), Today Mr. Bush again pandered to the extreme religious anti abortion base and used his very first ever veto to kill federally sponsored stem cell research. This goes against good business sense as well as "compassion" because the Chinese, as well as others, ARE working on this. They, not the USA, will own this technology and the cures for terrible diseases that it promises. He WON'T veto wasteful, pork laden spending bills that make his buddies rich, but he WILL kowtow to the "back to the past" God Goobers. http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/07/19/stemcells.veto/index.html And he did the historic, small minded deed in private. Do you blame him?
OK, it won't actually DO anything, but it feels good. The new administration, whomever they may be, will have their work cut out for them cleaning up after this walking disaster.
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07:05 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Nope there are no plans to do so. I believe much of this has to do with a political ploy to show Bush will use veto power for the first time to rewin over his base. Why you ask? Well it's simple really. Bush is seen as the leader of the Republican government. So if he throws a bone to the base, then the base will be energized enough to vote for their Republican congress critters. It was all worked out ahead of time. The Democrats and Republicans like Lincoln Chaffee didn't complain because it helps get them on record voting for Stem Cell Research. And in their districts they look like they are trying to get things done in the face of the conservative majority.
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 07-19-2006).]
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07:37 PM
PFF
System Bot
Wolfhound Member
Posts: 5317 From: Opelika , Alabama, USA Registered: Oct 1999
NO, China and Japan can do it. With the full INVESTMENT of their governments. Another chance for the USA to fall behind. Another victory in the Bush administrations ' war on brains.' Today George Bush made another bad choice. With a stroke of his pen, he could have given hope to millions of Americans but instead he decided that curing diseases such as Lou Gehrig's, Parkinson's, spinal cord injuries, diabetes, osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease, autoimmune diseases and cancer was not as important as catering to his right wing base. Period.
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 07-19-2006).]
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08:12 PM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20699 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
NO, China and Japan can do it. With the full INVESTMENT of their governments. Another chance for the USA to fall behind. Another victory in the Bush administrations ' war on brains.' Today George Bush made a choice. With a stroke of his pen, he could have given hope to millions of Americans but instead he decided that curing diseases such as Lou Gehrig's, Parkinson's, spinal cord injuries, diabetes, osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease, autoimmune diseases and cancer was not as important as catering to his right wing base. Period.
Let me know if they cure those diseases.
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08:19 PM
DtheC Member
Posts: 3395 From: Newton Iowa, USA Registered: Sep 2005
I'm kind of a mugwump on this issue. It hits close to home for my family as Mom has been diagnosed with Parkinson's for over 10 years now. In her case she prolly won't die of Parkinson's, its the side effects that gets ya. Poor posture has lead towards scholiosis, lack of exercise has lead to a weight problems, and the drugs she takes have had some rather strainge behavior problems to boot. Wichata is right, I can't believe I just said that, there is some vary promising results from Adult stem cells. Better results than with the Embrionic stem cells. Opening up the number of Embrionic cell lines undoubtedly would help. For example, you can fix a car with a screw driver, a crecent wrench, and a hammer if given enough time. But nobody does that anymore.
It's the politics that screws up everything! The bill passed, the congressmen and senators gan go forth, campain on their vote, and probably get re-elected. Bush has Vetoed the bill and reafirmed his position with his supporters. Presently it's a win for both camps.
I see a high probiblity that nothing will be done about an overide till sometime after November 7th. Nobody wants to piss on an electric fence and hope that it will not zap your azz.
------------------ Ol' Paint, 88 Base coupe auto. Turning white on top, like owner. Leaks a little, like owner. Doesn't smoke, unlike owner
[This message has been edited by DtheC (edited 07-19-2006).]
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08:50 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Uh boy, our education system has a lot to answer for...
1) Pandering? To whom? a minority of voters whom he could care less about now that his is term limited? George Bush is acting on conscience, his own. Period. You may not agree with his value system but THAT is the main reason for his Veto.
2) Secondly, Congress is up for re-election in a few months. They can't afford to piss off the majority of voters, but the term limited President CAN. He can afford to look like the bad guy and congress gets off the hook.
End of story
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10:20 PM
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
I'm sure glad the all knowing, infallible expert on everything in the world has given us the final word on the subject. I know I'll sleep better tonight knowing Bush did it out of blind arrogance rather than pandering to the God Squad. Thats SO much better. Thanks, Toddster.
OOPSIE! 61% of the population is in favor of government funding for stem cell research. Only 30% agree with the Bushernator. Never mind.
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 07-21-2006).]
jsticker you have made a slightly miscalculation with your statement about the govt funding stem cell. The main reason they want federal approval for stem cell research is not all about getting full funding but being allowed to do it period. What happens in a research facility is they have multiple research projects going on at all times, now if the govt doesn't legalize stem cell research than the company has problems. If they receive any federal funding for any project under the companies name then they can't do stem cell at all or the govt will cut their funding for all programs. It wouldn't be as bad if they could do it on their own, it is the complete cut off of federal funds that prevent them from doing the research. It is a catch 22.
It is the same thing as with speed limits on Interstates. Any state can post whatever speed limit they want but if they do and it isn't what the federal govt suggest they run the risk of not getting any federal funding for all roads in their state.
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11:53 PM
Jul 20th, 2006
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Stem cell research is not illegal and is ongoing, with government funding. Embryonic stem cell research is in question and so far hasn't yielded near what other areas of stem cell research has. It's a political point with the left, however, as they fell they should be given carte blanche and no restrictions, and let the taxpayers pay for it and don't like having anything like this as a limit.
You may not like or agree with the Presiden't moral stand on this issue, but it's not like it's been hidden and certainly nothing new.
I would appreciate a cite from you that if a research facility is doing embryonic stem cell research ALL research funding is cut off because I don't believe that to be fact and have never come across anything like that in my reading of the subject, but I could be wrong on it. What is a problem is that this will keep the universities out of it and those are the ones that are really screaming as they area lways looking for the next cash cow research grant.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Grim001:
jsticker you have made a slightly miscalculation with your statement about the govt funding stem cell. The main reason they want federal approval for stem cell research is not all about getting full funding but being allowed to do it period. What happens in a research facility is they have multiple research projects going on at all times, now if the govt doesn't legalize stem cell research than the company has problems. If they receive any federal funding for any project under the companies name then they can't do stem cell at all or the govt will cut their funding for all programs. It wouldn't be as bad if they could do it on their own, it is the complete cut off of federal funds that prevent them from doing the research. It is a catch 22.
It is the same thing as with speed limits on Interstates. Any state can post whatever speed limit they want but if they do and it isn't what the federal govt suggest they run the risk of not getting any federal funding for all roads in their state.
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12:01 AM
F-I-E-R-O Member
Posts: 8410 From: Endwell, NY Registered: Jan 2005
Well, you got to at least give him credit for voting his conscience and standing up for what he believes is right. I'm not agreeing with his action, but how often do politicians actually stand up for something they believe in? We may disagree with this, but there is a lesson here for everyone. Look at the decisions you make- how many of them are compromised because it may not be popular with family members, friends, co-workers... Just a different perspective to consider.
Only problem is politicians are suppose to represent the people who elected him, if the majority wants the research than that is what should happen. He or she should not be wielding the pen on their own agenda, too bad it happens more than not. But then again we can replace them when they don’t do as we like. I bet a lot of republicans will be seeing the door pretty soon; Bush's actions might be some of the reason for it too.
Just to let those who think I am Democrat know I don't belong to either party I vote my conscience according to who I think will better run our government, not on outdate ideals and philosophies ( both sides).
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12:10 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
I know I'll sleep better tonight knowing Bush did it out of blind arrogance rather than pandering to the God Squad.
Stop quoting stats. Lyndon Johnson governed by them, want him as president again?
We elect leaders to lead. Bush made a decision. You don't like it. That's life. Get over it. He did his job.
And arrogance is getting a rim job in the oval office by a clerk who is NOT your wife and carrying on a conversation with a Congressman at the same time.
Making an unpopular decision by standing on principal is admirable...even if you and I both agree it was the wrong decision. Yes, I disagree with the decision, but your blind hatred of Bush has clouded your judgement or ability to use reason. So, perhaps you should drop out of the discussion now.
[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 07-20-2006).]
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12:10 AM
Uaana Member
Posts: 6570 From: Robbinsdale MN US Registered: Dec 1999
Only problem is politicians are suppose to represent the people who elected him, if the majority wants the research than that is what should happen. He or she should not be wielding the pen on their own agenda, too bad it happens more than not. But then again we can replace them when they don’t do as we like. I bet a lot of republicans will be seeing the door pretty soon; Bush's actions might be some of the reason for it too.
Just to let those who think I am Democrat know I don't belong to either party I vote my conscience according to who I think will better run our government, not on outdate ideals and philosophies ( both sides).
Don't take this personal, it's just the last post with this bad info posted. " if the majority wants the research than that is what should happen."
HE DIDN"T OUTLAW THE RESEARCH!!!! In fact since he's been in office the rules governing this research have been expanded.
All he did was say the fed gov't isn't going to EXPAND funding for it. Trust me, if there were a buck to be made Pfizer and Merck would be all over this and probably are. Others have already pointed out the avenues that are being explored that have shown results. The embryonic cells have had issues and have not been the cure all that they were thought to be, but nobody is stopping anyone from doing further research.
Now for the hoodwink part.. This was a political ploy!! Bush isn't up for reelection and has nothing to lose by looking like a bad guy for finally using that veto stamp. But, all the R's that are up for reelection this year.. Well they can say they were opposed to it and voted to have the veto overturned (which wasnt going to happen either).. Jeesh kids, hell I even voted for Bush and could see this for what it was. The man hasn't seen anything in 5.5 yrs worth vetoing and now he breaks it out? This is right out of the Rove and Carville play books
I stand by my assurtion that if the majoirty want it then it should happen. We are a republic built on democracy, which stands for majority rules, plain but not so simple. I also never stated he outlawed it but he did do something that was just as bad, no federal funding, read my post prior to the politicana one and it will explain why not having federal funds is almost the same as outlawing it. Never mind I will cut and paste it here.
And I quote: jsticker you have made a slightly miscalculation with your statement about the govt funding stem cell. The main reason they want federal approval for stem cell research is not all about getting full funding but being allowed to do it period. What happens in a research facility is they have multiple research projects going on at all times, now if the govt doesn't legalize stem cell research than the company has problems. If they receive any federal funding for any project under the companies name then they can't do stem cell at all or the govt will cut their funding for all programs. It wouldn't be as bad if they could do it on their own, it is the complete cut off of federal funds that prevent them from doing the research. It is a catch 22.
It is the same thing as with speed limits on Interstates. Any state can post whatever speed limit they want but if they do and it isn't what the federal govt suggest they run the risk of not getting any federal funding for all roads in their state.
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12:44 AM
Earl Member
Posts: 945 From: Dayton Ohio USA Registered: Oct 2001
Let me see if I got this correct. You think we vote for a canidate so he can do as we dictate? I thought we voted for a candidate to lead. I don't want another presadent that leads by the poles. I want one that votes the way he feels is in the best interest of the country. It looks like you want "Mob Rule By Proxy" that is scarry. We don't live in a democracy its a complex replublic. A democracy can't stand. Mob rule will destoy our future. We need strong leaders not sheep. They are elected to lead not follow public opion poles. I think we have had our fill of polititions who's vote depends on the poles. That said I admit I do not agree with alot of the decitions GWB has made. I am sure we elected the better of the 2 candidates. And I pray we can say the same thing 3 years from now.
[This message has been edited by Earl (edited 07-20-2006).]
While I agree with your idea about having a leader in office i still think a leader would look at the situation and gather information before making a decision, even more so if it affect millions of lives. In this case I don't belive our president has done that but he has gone off his own religious beliefs. I know he has more scientist at his disposal than anyone else in the world.
At least that is what good leaders do.
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01:05 AM
NEPTUNE Member
Posts: 10199 From: Ticlaw FL, and some other places. Registered: Aug 2001
....Bush has nothing to lose by looking like a bad guy for finally using that veto stamp. But, all the R's that are up for reelection this year.. Well they can say they were opposed to it and voted to have the veto overturned (which wasnt going to happen either).. Jeesh kids, hell I even voted for Bush and could see this for what it was. The man hasn't seen anything in 5.5 yrs worth vetoing and now he breaks it out? This is right out of the Rove play books
Thank you.
[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 07-20-2006).]
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01:17 AM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Well, you got to at least give him credit for voting his conscience and standing up for what he believes is right. I'm not agreeing with his action, but how often do politicians actually stand up for something they believe in? We may disagree with this, but there is a lesson here for everyone. Look at the decisions you make- how many of them are compromised because it may not be popular with family members, friends, co-workers... Just a different perspective to consider.
When did he get a conscience? Just curious... Next thing you know, he'll have a brain.
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02:56 AM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20699 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
I stand by my assurtion that if the majoirty want it then it should happen. We are a republic built on democracy, which stands for majority rules, plain but not so simple.
I totally disagree with you. We have checks and balances in our government system that helps curtail the majority rule, because our government wasn't founded to be govern by mob rule.
If you said that if the majority wants it then it should happen, we would still have segregated schools, slavery, aborition would be banned, there would be no rich people or corporations, we would be practically a 3rd world nation, very socalisized to down right facisim, and we would have a theocratic monarchy ruling our nation.
We weren't built on democracy, but by representative Democracy under the rule of law, not the rule of men.
The only reason why the public wants the government to EXPAND their funding for research of stem cells, because it has been sold to the public in a great PR campaign as the new snake oil to cure all ills. I'm not saying it can or cannot, but I do think it has been way oversold to its potential and so it attaches personally to people. Somebody knew how to market this very well.
So they dabble into the research to see what it can do. The government funds some of it, some of its private. With the budget shortfalls we have in the Federal Government, the massive spending, there are places the government has to trim or not expand, and Bush choose this. He had other reasons that were probably more dominant than financially issues of the government, but how much is enough?
Let Science figure out if embronic stem cells will do anything. So far it hasn't! But don't ask the government to open it's pocket book for everything.
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08:47 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I stand by my assurtion that if the majoirty want it then it should happen. We are a republic built on democracy, which stands for majority rules, plain but not so simple. I also never stated he outlawed it but he did do something that was just as bad, no federal funding, read my post prior to the politicana one and it will explain why not having federal funds is almost the same as outlawing it. Never mind I will cut and paste it here.
And I quote: jsticker you have made a slightly miscalculation with your statement about the govt funding stem cell. The main reason they want federal approval for stem cell research is not all about getting full funding but being allowed to do it period. What happens in a research facility is they have multiple research projects going on at all times, now if the govt doesn't legalize stem cell research than the company has problems. If they receive any federal funding for any project under the companies name then they can't do stem cell at all or the govt will cut their funding for all programs. It wouldn't be as bad if they could do it on their own, it is the complete cut off of federal funds that prevent them from doing the research. It is a catch 22.
It is the same thing as with speed limits on Interstates. Any state can post whatever speed limit they want but if they do and it isn't what the federal govt suggest they run the risk of not getting any federal funding for all roads in their state.
You've made several errors here.
Don't equate "stem cell research" with "embryonic stem cell research." This veto was concerned with federal funding of embryonic stem cell research and has NO EFFECT on other types of stem cell research. You need to understand the difference.
Not giving federal funding is not the same thing as outlawing something. A company doesn't have a problem with it being illegal BECAUSE IT'S NOT ILLEGAL.
There has been no talk of threatening to pull any federal funding from companies doing LEGAL stem cell research. Stem cell research has not been outlawed.
Your post says you never said he outlawed it, but then your quoted post says "if the govt doesn't legalize stem cell research than the company has problems" If something isn't legalized, wouldn't it be outlawed? You don't seem to know exactly what it is you're trying to say.
And finally, your understanding of our government system is flawed. "We are a republic built on democracy, which stands for majority rules" is not correct. We are a democratic republic, which means we use the majority vote to vote for representatives who represent us in the government. They then make the decisions rather than the people voting on everything. Far from "majority rules," our government has long been one that is concerned with making sure the minority needs don't get lost by the will of the majority. If it was just a case of majority rules, you wouldn't have any EEOC. No affirmative action. No assistance for the disabled. Nothing for learning disabled people. Think of any minority group that gets any benefit from the government. If it were just a case of majority rules, chances are you wouldn't see that aid.
It IS against the law to do research on Embryonic Stem Cells donated after 2001 in federally funded labs. This severely hampers research. Big breakthroughs come when scientists work and share research, not when it is removed from publicly funded systems.
There is not enough material to continue research on lines donated before that date. George Bush is effectively killing US research on Embryonic Stem Cell research. You clowns talking about no evidence of cures and private sector taking the lead are ignorant. Private sector research creates things like Viagra and Acid Reflux treatment. The major breakthroughs happen when the federal system is involved.
There is no direct evidence because stem cell research is in it's infancy and it's being strangled by backward folk from the hills. There is evidence of potential, and once that potential is realized we WILL have evidence.
Just because a group of cells invisible to the human eye has the potential to become human life doesn't mean it IS a human being. It's a group of cells that has the potential to become human, plain and simple. It also has the potential to grow into just about any cell formation we want. That's where the hope comes in.
I was talking to a Neurologist here at the Hospital I work in, and he (regardless of being religious) was excited about the possibilities of repairing damaged brain tissue. He was saying they someday will be able to inject a stem cell into the brain designed to grow in a sort of bridge cell that closes the gap on two elctro chemical signals needed to stabilize erratic movement and seizures. He is already working on stimulating cells in the brain with electrical signals to release chemicals that stabilize movement. In some neural disorders certain brain tissue can become damaged causing weak signals that cause physical movement to become erratic. They understand most of what is happening in disorders like this, and if they could actually REPAIR some tissue instead of bypassing it. They would be able to cure so many people. That is what Stem Cells can do. They can be coaxed into growing into specific cells.
He sees the possibilities, he is one of the leading experts in his field. Who are you going to believe? Rick Santorum and Wichita or a Neurologist at one of the worlds leading institutions. You guys have nothing but memorized talking points.
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12:02 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
(Pulls up cooler and chair, opens cooler, offers cold beverage to Tinton, puts salt on own popcorn, and sits back, with asbestos blanket handy, and rubs SPF 30 lotion on his back.)
OK, I was fine there until the "...rubs SPF 30 lotion on his back.) JUST KIDDING. I confess, I added that part into your quote.
SO much to say here.
Regarding the polls that 60 some percent want federal funding for it. Yeah, no kidding. Because MOST of the american public has very vague ideas of what the poll is talking about, and what the research can actually do.
How do I know that? Just look at the posts in this thread.
It is EMBRYONIC stem cells that is the issue. But many posters don't make that MAJOR distinction. It is FEDERAL FUNDING of EMBRYONIC stem cell research. Many don't make that distintion. "Hundreds of Vets from Iraq with spinal cord damage pull up in Wheelchairs to watch the show." Well, they will be watching the show for a LONG time. But this is the kind of misleading comment that the average US citizen has been led to believe. Like the research is on THE BRINK of helping these people. IF any of this works out, it will likely be DECADES before it is being used in humans. "I was talking to a Neurologist here at the Hospital I work in, and he (regardless of being religious) was excited about the possibilities of repairing damaged brain tissue. He was saying they someday..." Well, of course he would be excited about it. He (no fault of his) has NOTHING to help these people. So of COURSE he would be excited about the promise. SOMEDAY...that is a BIG someday. Again, no fault of his. These are HIGHLY complex systems that are going to take a LONG time, if ever, to work out.
But with people talking this way, like it is some imminent thing, no wonder 60% want it federally funded. They have been grossly misled at best and duped at worst, and really, much closer to duped.
So I am all for having the morality discussion, and the political discussion of what this all means. That is interesting and possibly fun. But some preciseness and some reality would REALLY help this discussion, too.
I'll take a Neurologists opinion over some car guys on the internet any day of the week, even if one of them is an MD. No offense FL.
FL I imagine your a General Practitioner, is this correct? Now let me ask you this, who would know more about the possibilities of Stem Cell Research? A GP or a Neurologist?
I am sitting next to a Cardiologist right now and even though he admitted that any implications for heart medicine is far off in the distance, he is also excited about the possibility of an effective treatment for Parkinsons in the not to distant future. There are mechanisms in place to locate affected areas in the brain, we know what chemicals and signals are needed to enhance motor ability, and we know stem cells can form any cell mass in the body, isn't it exciting to think of what that means? Come on, you're a doctor, you should know the science.
Do you believe that an embryo is...
Equivalent to a human being?
or
A microscopic collection of cells with the potential to be a human being?
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03:05 PM
moleman_in_a_FieroGT Member
Posts: 792 From: Houston, TX, USA Registered: Apr 2006
Well, Frontal Lobe does have a point. If 60% of the people support this, but aren't informed that this research won't happen overnight, then when the gov't does decide to fund this, those people will be whining that it isn't being done fast enough, etc... Then, they'll begin to split. Some may want to give more $$$, others will accuse the scientists of fraud, and we'll get nowhere.
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03:39 PM
Wolfhound Member
Posts: 5317 From: Opelika , Alabama, USA Registered: Oct 1999
Moleman that's the silliest post I,ve seen in a while. Nobody thinks it will be over night and how are you going to get anywhere unless you have the research in the system. All this was about was a rubber stamp congress trying to gather it's sheep. I,ve never known a doctor that wasn't for all the research available.
So.... Are you trying to say that republicans brokered a deal with the persident?
That they said in essence "Look..You are on you way out. We are up for re-election and 60% of the population is for this... Soooooo.. how about we vote for it and you go ahead and put this black hat on, make like "the bad guy" instead of us veto it for us.. That way we don't take the hit and we get off scot free..."
Huh... Never knew such things like that happened in government.
quote
Originally posted by Toddster: Congress is up for re-election in a few months. They can't afford to piss off the majority of voters, but the term limited President CAN. He can afford to look like the bad guy and congress gets off the hook.
Why is it that you ASSUME that without the US Government paying for it, nothing is being done with this research?
Stem cell research has not been banned. Even embryonic stem cell research has not been banned (although it has yet to yield any significant results of any kind that couldn't be done with other stem cells). It's just that the US Government won't pay for that research.
Big deal.
You guys need to realize that the government is woefully inept at most things it does and most likely, better and faster results will come without their intervention. You can get disgusted and mad all you want but who do you think is going to sign the "moron petition"? Oh, yeah, the same people that run around circulating every other damn petition that doesn't accomplish anything either.
You may, or may not, agree with Pres. Bush's opinion that an embryo is a life. I'm not sure I do, but he does and he's said that from the first day he came into office and all during his first campaign. Now you want to get mad. Big whoopdedo. Get mad, if it makes you feel better. If it was Bill Clinton doing the same thing (vetoing something that has popular support) you'd be praising his courage and the way he "ignores the polls".
John Stricker
George Bush could shoot an infant in the face and you would find some way to defend his actions.
Bush is a moron. Jump off the sinking ship. Get over it.
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05:40 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
I'll take a Neurologists opinion over some car guys on the internet any day of the week, even if one of them is an MD. No offense FL.
FL I imagine your a General Practitioner, is this correct? Now let me ask you this, who would know more about the possibilities of Stem Cell Research? A GP or a Neurologist?
I am sitting next to a Cardiologist right now and even though he admitted that any implications for heart medicine is far off in the distance, he is also excited about the possibility of an effective treatment for Parkinsons in the not to distant future. There are mechanisms in place to locate affected areas in the brain, we know what chemicals and signals are needed to enhance motor ability, and we know stem cells can form any cell mass in the body, isn't it exciting to think of what that means? Come on, you're a doctor, you should know the science.
Do you believe that an embryo is...
Equivalent to a human being?
or
A microscopic collection of cells with the potential to be a human being?
Well, of course you would because you have met the neurologist personally, and you haven't met me personally. So no offense at all taken, and I know you didn't mean any.
You had no way of knowing that I was at the top of my medical class. You had no way of knowing that I was AOA, which is the medical school honor society. You had no way of knowing that my medical school yearly votes for which of their classmates would want as their doctor if they were sick, and that I won that award. You had no way of knowing that I have been cited as one of the area best doctors. You had no way of knowing that I do clinical research on pharmaceutical products and have for 14 years. So of course you would compare your neurologist to a "general practitioner" and not the internal medicine specialist that I am, who also has a pharmacy degree. Because I don't generally flaunt my credentials, as it can come across as arrogant accidentally, and I just WANT to be a car guy on a forum.
So it is possible your neurologist may have higher academic and professional achievements than I, but it is unlikely, as I am in that general 95% level. But if he is in the top 5%, then that is awesome. However, once you reach that general level, you are splitting hairs, and certainly equally qualified to understand what is going on regarding the stem cell issue.
Your cardiologist is honest. Any real life applications are FAR off. That is all I was saying. Your neurologist didn't say it. He knew it. He just didn't say it. And a LOT of people aren't honestly saying it because they don't want that to lessen support for the research. So your neurologist and I probably have equal knowledge, I just don't have his bias (and neither does your cardiologist friend).
And of course I am excited about research and possibilities. I never said to the contrary. I just wanted the discussion held in honesty and objectivity.
And a human embryo is not a whole human being yet, but it IS a microscopic collection of cells with all the potential it needs to become a whole human being (pending the environment).