This is what happens when you tell customers ,who pays $3.50-$4.00 a pack, they can not smoke.

Smoking ban has Appleton fuming : August 2, 2005

APPLETON (AP) - At Jokers Bar, the staff of eight has been laid off. Owner Tony Schaefer said he's now working the bar with his brother.

Schaefer is among many business owners still fuming a month after a ban on smoking at all indoor workplaces was enacted in this city.

The ban was approved by 56 percent of voters in an April 5 referendum and went into effect on July 1. Madison's similar smoking ban went into effect on the same day, although there was no referendum preceding it.

"We'll be closing up" if business doesn't improve, Schaefer said. "The sad thing is we don't even know if anyone would buy it."

Some say they have reason to fume.

Nearly three-quarters of the 64 businesses that responded to a request from the Appleton Post-Crescent reported sluggish sales in the past month, most from 10 to 40 percent lower compared with last July. Some reported sales off as much as 70 percent.

Many tavern owners in Madison have made similar complaints, and sympathetic members of the City Council have already tried once, unsuccessfully, to repeal the ban.

More than 30 tavern owners in Appleton have filed a lawsuit to repeal the ban, and the Common Council this month is expected to review a proposal that would exempt taverns and bar areas of restaurants, similar to a measure proposed statewide.

Our tax dollars at work, protecting us from ourselves.

The smoking ban here has caused 3 bars and 2 resturants to close.
More to follow when the FULL ban goes into effect next year I suspect.

Paying customers are still out there, they haven't left the planet. Businesses either adapt or die.

It's fantastic to be able to go into any bar or restaurant and be able to breathe clean, fresh air. I love it. I remember the bad old days years ago when after spending a night at a club, I'd feel like I’d have to burn my clothes because they reeked so much of stinking cigarette smoke.

The ban on smoking is the best thing since sliced bread. If your city, province, or state hasn’t implemented it yet, lobby for it. The day of the dinosaur is over, welcome to the 21st century!

I don't smoke, and hate the smell of it too but tolerate it. But what about this....

Instead of full-fledge banning, what about requirements. Basically update or your restuarant is deemed banned till updated. Basically installing several(more for larger places) exhaust fans in the cielings?? I've been to some places that had those and they weren't loud, and it worked perfect. You could eat at a table with a smoker and not smell the smoke.....so it was fine for everyone. Sure the business would have to pay for this stuff......but i'm pretty sure it would be worth it in the long run to dish out some money to keep your customers if not gain some after the update.

quote Originally posted by Fiero Finale: Basically installing several(more for larger places) exhaust fans in the cielings?? I've been to some places that had those and they weren't loud, and it worked perfect. You could eat at a table with a smoker and not smell the smoke...

That kind of system works about as well as having a specified area in a pool to pee in. It still affects everybody.

There was much wailing and crying and wringing of hands by business owners here when the smoking ban was first implemented years ago. Funny how all that quickly disappeared and it was business as usual in short order.

Here's a solution. Make it a state ban, or even better, a national ban. Problems solved. No resturaunt will lose any business because every building will be smoke free. It is no additional cost to the owners for exhaust fans or whatever, non-smokers don't have to deal with all the effects of second hand smoke, and smokers are free to kill themselves outside or in thier own homes. I highly doubt any smoker will be willing to drive out of the state, or even the country just because they can't go 1 hour without a smoke. It completely takes the smoking criteria out of chosing a resturaunt.

I don't have a problem with what ever anybody does to themselves. It's not like people do not know the consequences. But I have a problem when it affects me or other people. I love the peeing section in the pool analogy, I don't thik anything fits this better.

Tim

I feel no pity for them(smokers or the companies failing to adapt)... ooh boo hoo you have to go out side and kill your self.

I wish our local bars had that... hopefully soon.

tho some restaurants have decided to kill their smoking sections anyway, and its great to go to Red Robin and eat a hamburger with out having to smell that crap.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Paying customers are still out there, they haven't left the planet. Businesses either adapt or die.

2 things;

1 - the consumer does adapt - they purchase from other businesses and take it home or they commute to other cities/towns
2 - this idea of smoking bans are just another example of how some people feel completely justified in stepping on the freedoms of others

Smokers don't have to support businesses who don't allow smoking inside, Likewise, non-smokers have the freedom not support those businesses. Although smoking and skin color are not remotoely comparable, the idea that it is somehow justifiable to discriminate against either is wrong. It comes from the same ideology. "we are more important, so the law should favor us and restrict them". That way of thinking is no different than racism, because it still demands the law to take freedom from some while protecting it for others. In this case it just happens to be a discrimination based on habit insted of color. It is still wrong and it would still be wrong if it were a ban on veganism.........

Here's a thought.........

How about I open a cigar bar, cigar smoke and the smell of fine Brandy rolls throughout the bar, and you just stay the hell out? There will be plenty of signs telling you if you don't enjoy the smell of a fine cigar then this isn't the place for you. Deal? I don't know that I ever promised you unlimited and unfettered access to my private (bar) property.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Patrick: That kind of system works about as well as having a specified area in a pool to pee in. It still affects everybody. There was much wailing and crying and wringing of hands by business owners here when the smoking ban was first implemented years ago. Funny how all that quickly disappeared and it was business as usual in short order.

but your wrong, because the smokers made a choice on smoking, unlike religion (kind of) and definitely skin color your born that way, you cant make laws taking away from one grouped of people based on sex, religion, skin color ext.

You choose to be a smoker and as such you choose to not be able to smoke in a restaurant shared with those who don’t smoke.
I choose not to smoke, and so I have a right to breath clean air. Why do you as a smoker get a right to pollute the public air and possibility make me or hell children in a family restaurant sick.

I have no problem with you if you want to smoke and do that to your body... if you want to have bad teeth, and smell bad that’s your choice, but I choose not. So don’t go smoking in my public buildings... the best day was when I was 9 and my dad tried to light up in the mall and the security guard told him there was no smoking in the mall... My dad quit smoking a year later, he got sick of not begin able to do it anywhere and figured he might as well just quit.

...and to whoever gave me the negative rating for simply expressing my views in this thread, go have a ****ing smoke. Better yet, go have about ten of them, and suck 'em down real deep.

I use to be a smoker, I quite about 7 months ago. Have not had a smoke since Jan 5th yaa for me.

However

The smoking ban is stupid. We stopped going to restaurants that you could not smoke in. The state has no business telling a private business that it can not allow smoking. If you don't like the smoking go to a place that has a non smoking section.

Why is the non smokers rights more important than the smokers.

There was a restaurant out here that found a loop hole in it. He made all the patrons pay a $1 buy in. Which made them part owner in the restaurant. Essentially turning it into a private establishment rather than a public restaurant. I am not sure if he is still doing it. But many bars out here just pay the fine when they get caught because the fine is cheaper than the lost business.

I don't smoke, but I think people should have the right to smoke. The government needs to lay off on shoving the rules down peoples throats that don't want them.

Next thing ya know the environmental people will start screaming about our cars and saying how it hurts there lungs smelling out cars driving. We will only be allowed to drive on rainy days, from 8pm - 10pm unless you purchase a special government permit which cost's a billion dollars, and only applies if you have special reason to be on the road, and can not be used for any car that is older than 10 years old.

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85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

quote Originally posted by JRM-2M6: Although smoking and skin color are not remotoely comparable, the idea that it is somehow justifiable to discriminate against either is wrong. It comes from the same ideology. "we are more important, so the law should favor us and restrict them". That way of thinking is no different than racism, because it still demands the law to take freedom from some while protecting it for others. In this case it just happens to be a discrimination based on habit insted of color. It is still wrong and it would still be wrong if it were a ban on veganism.........

quote Originally posted by JRM-2M6: sure send them all outside ,so kids can see and be influance by smokers. we demand **** be kept behind the counter or covered , but smoking should be done openly for all kids to see it.... good plan.... the mfg's will be laughing all the way to the bank and our government will wonder ,in the future, why more kids and adults are smoking.

Are these posts jokes or what?

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Next thing ya know the environmental people will start screaming about our cars and saying how it hurts there lungs smelling out cars driving. We will only be allowed to drive on rainy days, from 8pm - 10pm unless you purchase a special government permit which cost's a billion dollars, and only applies if you have special reason to be on the road, and can not be used for any car that is older than 10 years old.

I congratulate you on quitting ... but dude that is total bs... that will never ever happen!

You want to know why non smokers get more rights!?
Because we are born not smoking, there are more of us (smokers are in the minority), and because its a basic right to enjoy fresh air in public buildings... not air with tar, nicotine, ash, thousands of other toxins in it...

And because your in the minority, expect to lose any voted law against you.

In *YOUR* bar?? You're going to open your non-smoking bar? No, you're not. You're going to go into SOMEBODY ELSE'S Bar and tell them how to run their business. What ever happened to the idea if you don't like the smoke in a bar, don't go there. Go to a non-smoking bar. No, you can't do that, you have to impose YOUR WILL of what is right and wrong on not just the other patrons, but the owners of the PRIVATE PROPERTY instead. And you say conservatives want to control lifestyles.............

That's my point, if I open a cigar bar in Appleton, there for cigar smoking and sipping of Brandy and Cognac, I can't. I have had that opportunity taken away from me, even though I might have a very profitable business venture and 100 regular cigar smokers that would love to come. Go on a cruise ship, they have a cigar lounge where cigars, brandy, and newspapers/magazines/books are available for people to relax, enjoy a pastime that is quite pleasureable for them, and not bother anyone else. But idiotic laws like this say I can't do that, can't open that bar, can't meet with friends to enjoy a cigar.

I can guarantee you that there are going to be several of us at Osage Beach this weekend, sitting around the pool, sharing and enjoying each other's cigars that have been brought and our mutual company. It won't be in Appleton, though, because that's illegal.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by dezie36: That idea is a winner! Now go open your smelly bar and let me enjoy the fresh air in my bar. Man... I really cant stand the smell of cigars that and pipe makes me throw up every time I smell it... no joke every time, just hits my gage reflex and boom anything Id eaten... on the floor.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: In *YOUR* bar?? You're going to open your non-smoking bar? No, you're not. You're going to go into SOMEBODY ELSE'S Bar and tell them how to run their business. What ever happened to the idea if you don't like the smoke in a bar, don't go there. Go to a non-smoking bar. No, you can't do that, you have to impose YOUR WILL of what is right and wrong on not just the other patrons, but the owners of the PRIVATE PROPERTY instead. And you say conservatives want to control lifestyles............. That's my point, if I open a cigar bar in Appleton, there for cigar smoking and sipping of Brandy and Cognac, I can't. I have had that opportunity taken away from me, even though I might have a very profitable business venture and 100 regular cigar smokers that would love to come. Go on a cruise ship, they have a cigar lounge where cigars, brandy, and newspapers/magazines/books are available for people to relax, enjoy a pastime that is quite pleasureable for them, and not bother anyone else. But idiotic laws like this say I can't do that, can't open that bar, can't meet with friends to enjoy a cigar. I can guarantee you that there are going to be several of us at Osage Beach this weekend, sitting around the pool, sharing and enjoying each other's cigars that have been brought and our mutual company. It won't be in Appleton, though, because that's illegal. John Stricker

*Tears*

And my heart breaks for you.

For you INFO in Lansing there are no non-Smoking bars... if I want to go to a club, or a bar I have to smell the smoke...
I have to run the risk of opening the Pandora’s box of cancer from 2nd hand smoke.

The habit of smoking is a disgusting and unhealthy habit... just like people who want to smoke pot and relax with their friends and do no harm to any one, they cant... and now you cant either... find some other way to enjoy your self... or invite your friends to your house and smoke your nasty smelling death sticks.

Edit: I feel I must add this... telling a bar they cant allow smokers is the same as telling them they cant allow 13 year olds in there and buy drinks!

Your making up an injustice that just isn’t there... and its one that over 50% of the country feels it isn’t an injustice... which is why these laws are passing!
It’s the democratic process get used to it, or get out! (wow I’ve always wanted to be able to say that)

[This message has been edited by dezie36 (edited 08-02-2005).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: But idiotic laws like this say I can't do that... ...you have to impose YOUR WILL of what is right and wrong on not just the other patrons, but the owners of the PRIVATE PROPERTY instead.

Damn all those idiotic laws. Damn all those idiotic laws that regulate food preparation in restaurants. If I wish to enjoy food poisoning, why shouldn’t I be allowed to do so in a restaurant of my choice. Gawdamn government and all their regulations.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Damn all those idiotic laws. Damn all those idiotic laws that regulate food preparation in restaurants. If I wish to enjoy food poisoning, why shouldn’t I be allowed to do so in a restaurant of my choice. Gawdamn government and all their regulations.

What government regulation? Who agreed for the bill? The government, or the general public like yourself?

quote The ban was approved by 56 percent of voters in an April 5 referendum and went into effect on July 1.

[This message has been edited by Ferrari_cdn (edited 08-02-2005).]

Stupid over powering government making laws based on what the public has voted for!

LOL... I love this... I totally do.

[This message has been edited by dezie36 (edited 08-02-2005).]

We have a full smoking ban here in the entire city, and I think the whole province as well. I don't remember when the last time I saw a person smoking, and I don't remember what it smells like anymore.

In fact, I have a hard time understanding how anyone can actually sit down next to others knowing that their habit is HURTING others and don't care about it. If I had a habit that I do, and know it hurts others, I would do it on my own away from them.

Before the ban came in effect, I know VERY few people that smoke, 5 people or less maybe. My sister is one of them. But all of them refuse to smoke around non smokers. My sister refuses to smoke when her kids are around or when she is with me or others. When I asked her why she doesn't smoke around us, she says she doesn't want to harm us. My other friends said the same thing, that they only smoke with their smoking friends and not with non smokers. Before the ban came in effect, when I was at restaurants or a public place that allowed smoking, my sister would just leave the place and smoke elsewhere then come back when she's done. I hate smoking but I wanted her to be happy, I told her that she can just smoke around me because she has the right to. She says she has no right to harm anyone's health.

Minneapolis recently instituted a smoking ban (as well as many surrounding communities). Personally? I love it! I went to a midnight gig for my friend's band at one of the most-popular music bars in downtown (Fine Line Music Cafe for the locals...). The whole time I was there I didn't realize that no one was smoking inside (although I saw specific groups going outside to smoke). It was when I left - and realized that I didn't smell like a stale ashtray that it finally hit me. How great - I don't have to take a shower before bed, just 'cause I was at a bar!

Now Minneapolis is apparently different from other places. The basics? Up to a $300 personal fine if you refuse to stop smoking when requested. For the licensee? They start at $200 per incident, then double up to $2000... beyond that you can loose your license to operate a business from the city. The difference? I believe they are now are allowing exceptions for "traditional bars" who meet certain requriements (adult-only entry, largest portion of sales made up of liquor - not food, etc). I have no problem with this, as it would leave pretty much all "family" places smoke free - while allowing true "bars" to operate in a could if they like.

Frankly - I'd love to visit John Stricker's Cigar Bar (assuming he stocks a selection of fine scotch along with his brandy & cognac)... but I'd rather not smell anyone's smoke when I'm out for dinner with the family - or even when watching a friend's band. Basically, I agree with non-smoking restaurants & family places... but "traditional" bars (especially speciality bars such as a cigar bar) should be allowed to become exempt.

As for stupid references like comparing smoking to pron or racism is just lame... you choose to smoke (you don't choose your race), You can privately watch pron (it won't drift to your neighbors and cause them to go blind). Get a real reference

...as for the legal side of it - apparantly in Appleton, the law was made when 56% of people agreed to it. Welcome to democracy at it's finest! The majority of the people actually made a law. Just like it's supposed to work. Simple.

Both you and Patrick are among the most liberal members on here, constantly telling us that the "conservatives" are infringing on YOUR RIGHTS. You and others have also said that we should NOT have majority rule in it's purest form. Well over half the country wants to keep the words "under God" in the pledge of allegiance. Something over 80% of the country considers themselves to believe in God. Yet we constantly are bombarded by court rulings and laws that over-rule the majority to protect the minority.

Don't misunderstand me, if you don't want to smell cigar smoke in a restaurant, I can understand that. (and FYI, unless I'm in a cigar bar or outdoors, I do not smoke my cigars, not even in my own home or my own vehicle) What disturbs me is that laws like this prohibit people from exercising their choice. You bring up pot and that's a red herring. It's illegal. Period. It has been for a long time. You talk about majority, the last poll I saw said that well over 2/3 of the country did NOT want pot legalized for general, recreational use. So put that in your "majority" pipe and smoke it. The problem is that if I want to, in many areas of the country now, I cannot open a smoking bar. Why not? You don't like it, don't come to it. You whine about "in Lansing there are no non-Smoking bar". Whooppeee. Sounds like a golden opportunity to me. My little hick KS town has two bars that have VOLUNTARILY gone no smoking. They're doing just fine and if I want to go there, I won't smoke.

That is not the same thing as mandating that something that IS legal and IS legally available can't be done. If you're going to get on your high horse about it, have the nads to simply ban all tobacco sales. See how far you get in that little endeavor. Try to replace that tax revenue and send 40% of the population into cold turkey withdrawals.

While you're on the subject of serving drinks to 13 year olds, why don't you just supply them heroin and needles too? Hey, it's their choice, right?

Fact is, a 13 year old doesn't have the maturity to make these decisions for themselves so the law makes those decisions for them. They shoujldn't be needed if there was any parenting going on at home, but there isn't so society in the form of government has stepped in. And while we're on the subject, you do know that alcohol is poison, right? Every day people die of alcohol poisoning. Oh, but that's their fault, they chose to drink. Really? Every day INNOCENT people are killed by drunk drivers. Yeah, it's illegal, it still happens. Let's just ban alcohol sales. After all, it's for those helpless, innocent victims.

The irony of this is that you and all your non-tobacco ranting friends have had the solution in front of you for a long time. Don't go to bars and restaurants that allow smoking. If it's such an important issue and our "health" is so important on this, you should have no problem in closing down most of the smoking bars and opening a whole bunch of new, non-smoking bars to meet the demand.

The fact is there is just a small group that has taken this as their cause. They can't affect change doing it in a social manner so they've recruited government to make the changes through the power of the police with a gun in the form of laws.

You want to talk totalitarianism? Look in the mirror because there you are.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by dezie36: *Tears* And my heart breaks for you. For you INFO in Lansing there are no non-Smoking bars... if I want to go to a club, or a bar I have to smell the smoke... I have to run the risk of opening the Pandora’s box of cancer from 2nd hand smoke. The habit of smoking is a disgusting and unhealthy habit... just like people who want to smoke pot and relax with their friends and do no harm to any one, they cant... and now you cant either... find some other way to enjoy your self... or invite your friends to your house and smoke your nasty smelling death sticks. Edit: I feel I must add this... telling a bar they cant allow smokers is the same as telling them they cant allow 13 year olds in there and buy drinks! Your making up an injustice that just isn’t there... and its one that over 50% of the country feels it isn’t an injustice... which is why these laws are passing! It’s the democratic process get used to it, or get out! (wow I’ve always wanted to be able to say that)

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Why is the non smokers rights more important than the smokers.

We have the right to breathe....Smoke from other people's cigarettes has been proven to cause damage in people. I smoked for eight years, and for those eight years I had the courtesy to do so in public places ONLY if it was accepted among the people who had to also deal with it...That's simply what it is, courtesy, consideration....not a difficult concept.You want the right to smoke wherever you want? OK then....Let me run my exhaust into your house while you're eating breakfast.

Banning smoking at bars is like banning running on a soccer field. It comes with the territory. Trust me, I hate smoking as much as the next guy, probably more. Both my parents smoked 2 packs a day for the first 14 years of my life and I hate it with a passion. But who is the gov't to tell a private business what they can do? If you don't like it do what I do, DON'T GO. There's an idea. I don't like gambling either so I stay out of Atlantic City.

JRM are you joking? I have a goddamn right to clean air, you don't have a right to harm me in a public place. Well here's something for you, I like to beat the **** out of people. How would you like it if I just came up to you in a restaurant and beat the everliving crap out of you just because I LIKE to do it? I have a right to clean air and not to be harmed by 2nd-hand smoke in public places just like you have a right not to get your ass kicked by me down at Chili's. If you want to allow this foul practice into society, why not allow other things people find enjoyable? People like to have sex, how would you like to be sitting down to dinner with your family and a couple are doing the dirty at the table next to yours? That's how I feel when I go into a public place and you're blowing your goddamn smoke in my face, I had to put up with 2nd hand smoke from my Mom for 16 years until she died in 2002 from MS and an overdose on benadryl because she smoked so much it gave her such a headcold she had to take allergy medicine ALL THE TIME! I have shorter breath than many people now, I don't know how black my lungs are from it and I've never smoked a day in my life. If you want to go choke to death on a stick of tobacco, please go do it in your own private area, such as your house or your car. The basis for our rights in this country is that you have the right to do what you want until you infringe on the right of someone else. I have the right to health and it overrules your right to smoke yourself to death.

And a smoking ban would work. You don't see people smoking weed in your local bar that often do you? They stick to their homes, as they should.

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I am the signature virus, please put me in your signature so I can spread

He gets it.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: Banning smoking at bars is like banning running on a soccer field. It comes with the territory. Trust me, I hate smoking as much as the next guy, probably more. Both my parents smoked 2 packs a day for the first 14 years of my life and I hate it with a passion. But who is the gov't to tell a private business what they can do? If you don't like it do what I do, DON'T GO. There's an idea. I don't like gambling either so I stay out of Atlantic City.

Typical J to go in all different directions to try and confuse the topic… but that’s fine. Lets cover all of your points.

Yes your right I do say the conservatives are always infringing on my rights… sucks when the left does it to you doesn’t it? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander!
I’ve never said anything about not wanting pure democracy, Id be interested in seeing how it would work… But if we were to go that route… we would have to make srue every person eligible to vote did so… then you can see where the country really stands on issues… just because 80% of the voting public doesn’t like something doesn’t mean that’s 80% of the population… especially voting turn out at only like 40 or 50%.

Ok lets go with yoru idea of not going to a place if they allow smoking… ok so I choose not to eat at any sit down restaurant that allows smoking… in this hypothetical example its 1989, I cant find a restaurant that has no smoking… so what’s my solution? To only eat at home? Well that’s not the American way.

Your right, smoking pot has been Illegal for years now (for the record I don’t in fact take any drugs of any kind) when it was banned, im sure people where having this exact same argument… so yes lets ban all tobacco products, and in 100 years lets see who’s still bitching and if 2/3 of the country doesn’t want to keep it illegal.
But heres the problem with that, it turns 40% of the population into criminals…and the effect would probably be that similar to probation in the 20s IE more organized crime.
The idea with banning smoking in public areas is increasing the over all health of the country, and hopefully persuading those who choose to kill them selfs slowly to maybe stop.

And while were on the subject of alcohol… yes I know alcohol is a poison… as is tobacco, I’m not in reality suggesting banning tobacco or alcohol. If your choosing to smoke that’s your choice just like it is to drink but your not allowed to be intoxicated in public… because you’re a danger to your self and others.

quote While you're on the subject of serving drinks to 13 year olds, why don't you just supply them heroin and needles too? Hey, it's their choice, right?

You’ve gotta be kidding me! We aren’t even talking about heroin and needles! That’s a whole other thread.

Oh and Innocent people are killed every day from 2nd hand smoke. I’ve read countless stories about people who died of lung cancer who never smoked once in their lives, and who weren’t genetically disposed to it.

quote The irony of this is that you and all your non-tobacco ranting friends have had the solution in front of you for a long time. Don't go to bars and restaurants that allow smoking. If it's such an important issue and our "health" is so important on this, you should have no problem in closing down most of the smoking bars and opening a whole bunch of new, non-smoking bars to meet the demand.

So basically what your telling me is to stick my head in the sand and ignore the problem… yes that’s sound advice… I like that. Because even if I open my own non smoking bar, and don’t visit the smoking bars… there will be thousands a year who die from 2nd hand smoke… and in fact I haven’t solved the problem.

quote The fact is there is just a small group that has taken this as their cause. They can't affect change doing it in a social manner so they've recruited government to make the changes through the power of the police with a gun in the form of laws.

This makes no sense! And its not because I’m not as smart as you (as you’d like to believe) its because your argument has no solid foundation and makes no freaking sense.
This small group your referring too is over 50% of the population. And the government they’ve recruited is your government, and the gun is they’re power of vote!

Don’t even talk about totalitarianism. Your government is a scary government.
In my government you have the choice of smoking or not smoking, you can choose to be gay and marry if you want… or not, you can choose to have power over your own body (women) or not, you have the ability to choose what you do, in your government you’ll let me smoke in public and kill myself and harm those around me but I cant marry another guy or have an abortion. Because if a mother is allowed to smoke in a family restaurant near her child… well then you might as well have let her suck it out of her uterus in the first trimester because she's sentencing the child to the same fate!

Dezie

[This message has been edited by dezie36 (edited 08-02-2005).]

quote Originally posted by dezie36: but your wrong, because the smokers made a choice on smoking, unlike religion (kind of) and definitely skin color your born that way, you cant make laws taking away from one grouped of people based on sex, religion, skin color ext. You choose to be a smoker and as such you choose to not be able to smoke in a restaurant shared with those who don’t smoke. I choose not to smoke, and so I have a right to breath clean air. Why do you as a smoker get a right to pollute the public air and possibility make me or hell children in a family restaurant sick.

so the solution you think is appropriate is to stigmatize those who are capable on make a choice in favor of those who are too stupid to avoid smoke filled rooms?

I guess its perfectly fine to have freedom of choice , just as long as its not smoking..... that is a fascism pure and simple...

Well, I have to agree that there is quite a bit of hypocrisy in this thread. Majority rule is great if it is favor of something I like, but when it is against something I like, well...

Some people have a REAL problem grasping the concept of PUBLIC place. Restaurants are PRIVATE businesses. They may choose to open themselves to the public, but they are PRIVATE places. Privately purchased, privately paid for, privately owned. So please tell me: who should control them? Voters?

I am not saying they should be without safety regulation. But people have a choice whether to go there or not. Where are you going to draw the line on the safety regulation. Alcohol is harmful, too. Ban alcohol from bars? Fat is harmful, too. Ban it from restaurants?

Personally, I absolutely detest cigarette smoking and smelling cigarette smoke. On a selfish level, I would LOVE such a ban. And in a REAL PUBLIC place, I feel it is my RIGHT to have it be smoke free, as I paid for part of it. But I detest government interference in PRIVATELY OWNED business more than I detest cigarette smoke.

And by the way, this 56% of the voters wanting the ban of cigarette smoking. Not really fair to bars. I NEVER have gone in a bar. I never will go in a bar. My wife will never go in a bar. My entire church members would never go in a bar (about 500 people-ok, there may the rare exception). Yet we are voters. Do you want us voting on what happens in a bar? Fine if you do, but it doesn't even apply to us. I would like to see a vote of people that have actually been to a bar at least once in the last year to see what that percentage comes out, if you REALLY were interested in being fair to bars patrons. Although, that would still be unfair to bar OWNERS as I don't understand why the public should be able to tell them what to do in their PRIVATELY PAID FOR business.

P.S. I HATE SMOKING. I HATE SMOKING. I HATE SMOKING. I HATE SMOKING. I HATE SMOKING. Just wanted to make that clear.

quote Originally posted by JRM-2M6: so the solution you think is appropriate is to stigmatize those who are capable on make a choice in favor of those who are too stupid to avoid smoke filled rooms? I guess its perfectly fine to have freedom of choice , just as long as its not smoking..... that is a fascism pure and simple...

No, I’ve said above I don’t care if you smoke... I care if you smoke around me.
There are all of 5 or 6 sit down restaurants with out a smoking section here in Lansing... so am I stuck to those 5 or 6 restaurants?

I have as much a right to breath clean air while I’m eating as you do to kill your self. The worst part is, I went to Applebee’s last Friday night and I went to the bath room and when I cam back, there were 2 (yes I counted and searched after I found the first one) ashes on my food. I refused to eat it. I was done, I refused to pay for my food and I left.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Are these posts jokes or what?

most certainly not!

it seems the same people who support pro-choice are the same ones who quickly support anti-choice laws such as a ban on smoking.
its a double standard for which there is no justifiable basis for. Sure, smoking is bad for us , but, banning smoking does not reduce the number of people who smoke. all that this does is relieve non-smokers of any responsibility for their decission to place themselves and their children in areas where people smoke (they don't want to have to choose so they us the law to strip the right to choose from smokers) .

i clearly stated that my example was not to compare the value of a habit to skin color, insted it was solely on the mindset of individuals who would actually support such a ban . while i agree that smoking in department stores , food stores, and public buildings where children are most certainly to be present, i certainly would not expect children to be in a bar or tavern ..

[This message has been edited by JRM-2M6 (edited 08-02-2005).]

Ok frontal lobe let me clarify, I feel a public place is anywhere I am free to walk in from the street. So if its a private smokers club fine that’s your business. or a bar.. even a bar ill bend on. and say yes smoking is fine there.

but my real beef is restaurants, its disgusting to sit down see my delicious steak and take a whiff and thinking I’m gonna smell the steak and I smell some assholes (tobacco of choice).

You don’t go to a bar but I’m sure you’ve been to Chilies... or Applebee’s or any other number of sit down restaurants.
We dont allow cooks to smoke while preparing food any more so why should we allow the food to become contaminated after its prepaid.

"Ok lets go with yoru idea of not going to a place if they allow smoking… ok so I choose not to eat at any sit down restaurant that allows smoking… in this hypothetical example its 1989, I cant find a restaurant that has no smoking… so what’s my solution? To only eat at home? Well that’s not the American way."

Yes it is. Private business gets to decide how to run their business.

THE AMERICAN WAY is, in 1989, you can't find a restaurant that has no smoking. You perceive there is an unmet demand. YOU start your OWN restaurant that is totally no smoking, and solve the problem yourself. THAT is the american way.

Take your Applebee's example. Since when is it their RESPONSIBILITY to provide me with clean air to breathe? They are a PRIVATE business selling a product. "Here is our food choices. Here is our price list. Here is our environment. It includes stinky cigarette smoke air. Do you want to buy."

Your potential responses:

No thanks, I don't like your food. (my answer, too)
No thanks, I don't like your prices.
No thanks, I don't like your stinky air.

They have counter options if enough people say no:

provide better or different food
change their prices
regulate their air (no smoking, for example)

Don't get me wrong. I HATE cigarette smoke. But even IF I decided to tolerate it, my wife and daughter can't because of asthma. So there are places we simply cannot go. I don't like that we can't go. But, hey, it is THEIR restaurant. They bought it. They are paying for it. They are taking the risk. So THEY can decide what goes on in it and I can like it or lump it.

quote Originally posted by dezie36: You choose to be a smoker

[added]
okay i understand your situation with limited restraunts and seating. but your delima is certainly not the avager. if you and the others who choose not to smoke would stop going to any of those restraunts "just for a little while" it would have an economic impact on them. they would begin to find ways to accomodate non-smokers just to regain the business (unless your par of some smoking minority there). these guys dont want to loose anyones business . so a boycott by non-smokers thats only aimed at limiting (not banning) smoke in the air of the restraunt would financially seem like a reasonable request. but demanding it to be banned altogether is literally telling them to "give up a portion of your livelihood so i can get fresher air" only seems like your asking them to take the financial hit so you can benefit... nobody wants you to have to inhale 2nd hand smoke , their just asking you not use the laws that are ment to protect everyone, against them just because they smoke and you dont ... you do have to keep in mind that smokers have gone out of their way to ONLY SMOKE where it is still legal to do so, while non-smokers have rewarded them by demanding laws to further reduce the number of places where it is legal. maybe non-smokers should try deplomacy and use laws to ban smoking any further as a last result...

smokers are trying but nobody is meeting them halfway
[/added]

You do realize that a good portion of the medical communtiy and trail lawyers believe (or atleast convenced judges) that many smokers were born with a predisposition towards smoking because of their parents use of tabacco. matter of fact these same groups are also attributing use of alcohol and narcotics as a predisposition they were born with via the parents addiction. but if you believe otherwise , maybe we can ask the courts to overturn their decisions and recover some of the money that the tabacco industry has paid out.....

you choose to be a non-smoker therefore you should be willing to adhere to your choice and not visit extablishments that allow smoking throughout the building... I certainly wouldn't do business with a company who discriminates against minorities "kind of like funding the enemy" so don't spend your money their . protect the rights of everyone (EQUALLY) by simply not subjecting your self to that enviroment "it's your choice and nobody's trying to take it from you"

[This message has been edited by JRM-2M6 (edited 08-02-2005).]

quote Originally posted by JRM-2M6: it seems the same people who support pro-choice are the same ones who quickly support anti-choice laws suck as a ban on smoking. its a double standard for which there is no justifiable basis for. Sure, smoking is bad for us , but, banning smoking does not reduce the number of people who smoke. all that this does is relieve non-smokers of any responsibility for their decission to place themselves and their children in areas where people smoke (they don't want to have to choose so they us the law to strip the right to choose from smokers) .

And its funny how the pro-lifers are the same ones who support the death penalty and of course smoking anywhere they want.

So who’s life is the valuable one?
A mother who smokes around her child is knowingly hurting her child and most likely damning it.