Turns out, John Kerry!

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050607074009990028&ncid=NWS00010000 000001

(June 7) - Sen. John F. Kerry's grade average at Yale University was virtually identical to President Bush's record there, despite repeated portrayals of Kerry as the more intellectual candidate during the 2004 presidential campaign.

Kerry had a cumulative average of 76 and got four Ds his freshman year - in geology, two history courses and political science, The Boston Globe reported Tuesday.

His grades improved with time, and he averaged an 81 his senior year and earned an 89 - his highest grade - in political science as a senior.

''I always told my dad that D stood for distinction,'' Kerry said in a written response to reporters' questions. He said he has previously acknowledged focusing more on learning to fly than studying.

Under Yale's grading system in effect at the time, grades between 90 and 100 equaled an A, 80-89 a B, 70-79 a C, 60 to 69 a D, and anything below that was a failing grade.

In 1999, The New Yorker magazine published a transcript showing Bush had a cumulative grade average of 77 his first three years at Yale, and a similar average under a non-numerical rating system his senior year.

Bush's highest grade at Yale was an 88 in anthropology, history and philosophy. He received one D in his four years, a 69 in astronomy, and improved his grades after his freshman year, the transcript showed.

Kerry, a Democrat, previously declined to release the transcript, which was included in his Navy records. He gave the Navy permission to release the documents last month, the Globe reported.

Kerry graduated from Yale in 1966, Bush in 1968.

06-07-05 05:09EDT

By the Numbers


89
Kerry's highest grade at Yale

88
Bush's highest grade at Yale

4
Number of Ds Kerry received in his freshman year

1
Number of Ds Bush received in his four undergrad years

Source: AP

[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 06-07-2005).]

I'm not sure grades are the best way to determine intelligence. Also, if Kerry got 4 D's in his first year, but still had about the same grade as Bush, it means Kerry must have done much better in the rest of his college term. It sounds like Kerry had trouble adjusting to college but then did well.

That is a very measured and reasoned response.

So why has the media in general portrayed Kerry (and Gore) as so brilliant and Bush as so dumb? The only SOMEWHAT legitimate reason they have is because Bush's impromptu communication skills are not good.

But if they decided to be measured, reasonable, responsible media they could handle the concepts enough to know that everyone doesn't necessarily get A's in ALL classes and areas (like public speaking), but that you don't single out the one "D" (Bush's extemporaneous speaking skills) and ignore all the A's.

So although Bush got one "D", and Kerry got 4 "D"'s, it is "F"s all around for the media.

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: He said he has previously acknowledged focusing more on learning to fly than studying.

i guess he should have joined the air national guard instead of going out on those little river boat cruises, eh?

Wasn't the election held about 7 months ago?

Why still the need to compare Bush and Kerry?

Move on.

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: Kerry, a Democrat, previously declined to release the transcript, which was included in his Navy records. He gave the Navy permission to release the documents last month, the Globe reported.

That would be the reason it's making news now, instead of last November. If Kerry didn't want to be compared to Bush 7 months after the election, then maybe he should have released his transcript about 8 months ago.

Personally I don't think either is terribly good or bad, but it's an interesting comparison. Turns out both of them were pretty average students I guess.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: So why has the media in general portrayed Kerry (and Gore) as so brilliant and Bush as so dumb? The only SOMEWHAT legitimate reason they have is because Bush's impromptu communication skills are not good.

Well, the media isn't the "liberal media", with an agenda, so that can't be it. Wow, I just don't get it. Maybe one of our enlightened liberal friends will be kind enough to come along and explain it to us poor, dumb conservatives.

Doesnt prove a thing. I know people who have degrees that dont know how to open their hood or set their watch. Ill take someone with everyday smarts over anyone with college grades........

I have to say that Kerry is the smart one. I mean! He hooked himself up phat with the two rich chicks he married. Now he has the easy life living off of somebody else.

actions speak louder than transcripts.

but then again, there's no sense in arguing this on the "internets."

yeah, its hard to agrue with four D's in your freshman year

esp someone who wants to be president!

"Kerry got four Ds his freshman year - in geology, two history courses and political science..."

what does the leader of the free world need to know about history, or political science?

[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 06-07-2005).]

Oh Ken!! I thought you'd been reading this thread, https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/033897.html
and come up with YOU as the answer!!! !!! Hope you can take a joke, my friend!! !!!
Nick
fierofetish

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 06-07-2005).]

Yup, dumber. No doubt both Kerry and Bush believe the american public to be very dumb. I mean just look at who they voted for.

Yeah, an Bills gates is dumber then both of them.

quote Originally posted by filthyscarecrow: actions speak louder than transcripts.

VERY true. I agree 100%.

quote Originally posted by Steve Normington: I'm not sure grades are the best way to determine intelligence. Also, if Kerry got 4 D's in his first year, but still had about the same grade as Bush, it means Kerry must have done much better in the rest of his college term. It sounds like Kerry had trouble adjusting to college but then did well.

Kerry did what many students do, that is to hit college at a relaxed stroll instead of at a dead run. I know I made a 1.0 my first semester, I just wasn't prepared mentally for the amount of stress of first year college. However, I was able to get my GPA up to 3.85 by the time I finished my degree, though it was hard, hard work all the way.

I knew that the far right would jump on this story as soon as I heard it on NPR today, wow am I surprised. Of course, no mention of the Rossi debacle in WA, which to me is more meaningful.

And, after college Kerry went to serve multiple tours of actual combat duty in Vietnam, and live to return. GWB on the other hand was in no danger other than maybe a DWI accident or flying his plane into the ground on US soil.

To me, this is a fairly dead issue, it ended when Kerry graciously conceded his loss to GWB last year. Yes, last year.

JazzMan

yes, last year

before the election

when Kerry refused to allow this information to be released

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: yes, last year before the election when Kerry refused to allow this information to be released

Oh the humanity!

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: And, after college Kerry went to serve multiple tours of actual combat duty in Vietnam, and live to return. GWB on the other hand was in no danger other than maybe a DWI accident or flying his plane into the ground on US soil. To me, this is a fairly dead issue, it ended when Kerry graciously conceded his loss to GWB last year. Yes, last year.

I didn't find much of interest there. It would have been a *completely* dead issue if Kerry had allowed his transcripts to be released last year. Yes, last year. Before the election. What makes it newsworthy is that he stonewalled and wouldn't release the transcript during the campaign...kinda made you wonder what was there. Now, he's released it, so it's made the news. With 24 hour news channels, it makes news if someone crosses the street at high noon.

GWB's DWI and his Air National Guard service you allude to are both dead issues, however, having been beaten to a slow and painful death during the last two campaigns.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Kerry did what many students do, that is to hit college at a relaxed stroll instead of at a dead run. I know I made a 1.0 my first semester, I just wasn't prepared mentally for the amount of stress of first year college. However, I was able to get my GPA up to 3.85 by the time I finished my degree, though it was hard, hard work all the way. I knew that the far right would jump on this story as soon as I heard it on NPR today, wow am I surprised. Of course, no mention of the Rossi debacle in WA, which to me is more meaningful. And, after college Kerry went to serve multiple tours of actual combat duty in Vietnam, and live to return. GWB on the other hand was in no danger other than maybe a DWI accident or flying his plane into the ground on US soil. To me, this is a fairly dead issue, it ended when Kerry graciously conceded his loss to GWB last year. Yes, last year. JazzMan

I would love to have seen the Democrat rebuttal if a Bush supporter gave this excuse for W.'s grades.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 06-08-2005).]

fortunately, next time we will get to choose between an entirely new pair of slimeball politicians.

everyone has skeletons in their closet. ive done things i'm not proud of. but i'm beginning to suspect i'm as qualified for the job as any of the real candidates we are offered.
or maybe not.
i got decent grades in school, dont employ illegals, dont chase women (tho i do like to look), dont use illegal drugs or drink to excess. i never served in the military but i favor a strong defense. i'm not driven by ideology, and i'm reasonably honest. no one has bought me or my vote. i wouldnt have a chance of winning.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 06-08-2005).]

quote Originally posted by lurker: fortunately, next time we will get to choose between an entirely new pair of slimeball politicians.

not entirely new - one slimball is already jostling herself for postion

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: not entirely new - one slimball is already jostling herself for postion

maybe the current slimeball's brother will run against her.

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: not entirely new - one slimball is already jostling herself for postion

I can only pray...yup Ken I pray ... I pray that the masses will come to their senses and let a demarcate fix our economy and our country, am I the only one who misses .coms and bjs?

quote Originally posted by dezie36: I can only pray...yup Ken I pray ... I pray that the masses will come to their senses and let a demarcate fix our economy and our country, am I the only one who misses .coms and bjs?

There is your mistake. You expect government to fix the economy. The Economy is driven off of me and you. Government can hamper businesses with regulation and taxation. Other than that, let the market be by itself. Government has nothing to do with it.

The economy is fine. Nobody going to starve in America!

quote Originally posted by Wichita: There is your mistake. You expect government to fix the economy. The Economy is driven off of me and you. Government can hamper businesses with regulation and taxation. Other than that, let the market be by itself. Government has nothing to do with it. The economy is fine. Nobody going to starve in America!

Really? you should come to Lansing... where GM just closed another fing plant and 3500 people just entered the work force... the already stretched work force. In my auto class there are 10 guys from GM who got layed off.

The government can force companies like GM to stop out sourcing to other countries. I personally don’t like calling technical support on my laptop and be talking to some Indian woman who asks me to repeat and spell everything I say because she doesn’t know my language.

Your right the economy is driving by me and you... but if ME doesn’t have a job, how can ME buy anything there by supporting the economy?

The problem starts with the big companies... they want to go from having 100,000,000 in profit this year to having 2389089189078971234897234897123490 next year, so what do they do? They cut jobs and move them to places where people will work for .25 an hour. You stop the out sourcing and you fix the economy... you bring jobs back to the us, you fix the economy... you get a president that isn’t paid off by big business to make laws that help the business not the people, and you fix the economy.

Dezie

------------------

out of morbid curiosity, what god do you pray to for more money grabbing fly by night dot com companies and presidential bjs?

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: out of morbid curiosity, what god do you pray to for more money grabbing fly by night dot com companies and presidential bjs?

The pot smoking hippy one...lol

Obviously not your god... he’s too uptight for me... my god is cool laid back... my god created he platypus... and nothing else... he just likes to throw a monkeys wrench in the works every now and again. He gets a good laugh out of it.

how the world really works

Golden rule #1: The world doesnt owe you a living. The world includes GM, other companys, the government & your parents. If you dont understand this your life will be totally screwed up.

dezie,

I could tell those 3,500 people why they shouldn't have their job back, but it is sad and harsh so I wouldn't want to be the one to tell them. Automobile competition is now GLOBAL, not US. So GM has to be able to compete with companies with workers elsewhere, OR with foreign companies that produce cars in the US. The GM benefit package that the union of those 3,500 people has negotiated is no longer sustainable compared to what other auto workers across the US and across the world are getting.

So...they shouldn't have their job back because their union is not willing to take less pay for their job, so instead of having 3,500 jobs of less pay, they have ZERO jobs.

The follow-up complaint to that is that GM is so greedy and makes so much money. While I have no doubt there are corporate greedy people, if you look at the profit number that GM (or Ford, Chrysler, etc.) makes compared to the TOTAL INVESTMENT and the size of their business, their actual PERCENT profit is not very large. It would be a percentage that if you were investing your money somewhere and that was the rate of return you got, you would be highly disappointed.

Now the question for you is can you have the discussion of these highly complex issues within the context of the highly emotional-and rightfully so-loss of 3,500 jobs by 3,500 individuals and the fall out it has on the families of those individuals? It's hard.

GM is running itself out of business. You may complain about those 3500 people who lost their job, but the bigger issue is when GM goes belly up and EVERYONE at GM looses their job.

No matter how good or bad the economy is, if YOU loose YOUR job, the economy sucks. And somewhere there are always going to be companies or cities that have a poor job situation.

And there's the key. GM is trying to stay in business. We can argue all day long about other budgetary cuts they can make, but really, they pay their CEO ZERO, and that's just a drop in the corporate profit. They are outsourcing as a cost saving measure. The government tells them they can't outsource, and somebody different gets laid off, because they NEED to cut costs. Do we really want the government telling GM how to run their company? I sure don't. Name one organization run by the government, other than the military, that is cost-effective and does its job well.

Well we can have this discussion when one of you lose your job to a worker in another country who will do your job for less. Tell then you will all be to head strong to realize how outsourcing is killing our country… if every company out sources all of its blue collar jobs out to 3rd world countries… then there will be no jobs for more then half the population… lets see us be number 1 in the world then.

And when these people lose their jobs, they wont have any money to buy stuff from the stores (even yours, if you own a business) so the business go out of business. and every one loses... except for the corporations. I must be crazy cause this makes sense to me…and one one else.

[This message has been edited by dezie36 (edited 06-09-2005).]

If US companies are prohibited from outsourcing, then what is to keep foreign companies from driving the US companies out of business?

quote Originally posted by Steve Normington: If US companies are prohibited from outsourcing, then what is to keep foreign companies from driving the US companies out of business?

And if US companies are allowed to just continue outsourcing till only their headquarters is located here... where are all our millions of American workers going to get jobs to buy their products?

quote Originally posted by dezie36: And if US companies are allowed to just continue outsourcing till only their headquarters is located here... where are all our millions of American workers going to get jobs to buy their products?

They'll come from the same place where the new jobs came from for all the workers whose jobs were taken by robots and machines. The economy always changes. New jobs are created and old jobs are lost (either by replacing with machines or by outsourcing). The out of work employees will find jobs in other places either by retraining themselves or finding a new niche for their skills. The skills that an automotive factory working knows (welding, painting, running an assembly line) will work in many other industries.

Now that I have answered your question, will you actually give me an answer to mine?

quote Originally posted by Steve Normington: They'll come from the same place where the new jobs came from for all the workers whose jobs were taken by robots and machines. The economy always changes. New jobs are created and old jobs are lost (either by replacing with machines or by outsourcing). The out of work employees will find jobs in other places either by retraining themselves or finding a new niche for their skills. The skills that an automotive factory working knows (welding, painting, running an assembly line) will work in many other industries.

Dezie, 40 years ago, how much of the US workforce was employed in IT? Computer programmers? Software engineers? Systems analysts? What about identity theft/computer security specialists? How many people are employed by Apple, Microsoft, Dell & Gateway and HP combined? How many did those five companies employ just 30 years ago? How many people were employed by cable companies or TV stations in the early 1900s? You mentioned dot coms...20 years ago, no one knew what a dot com was.

As Steve pointed out, the economy is constantly changing. Millions of jobs that people work at every day simply didn't exist 20, 30, or 40 years ago. Some jobs disappear, others are created to take their places.

quote Originally posted by Steve Normington: If US companies are prohibited from outsourcing, then what is to keep foreign companies from driving the US companies out of business?

Good point. Let's see, we eliminate outsourcing. Now you can buy a Sony TV for $500, or a made in the USA TV of comparable quality for $1500. Which are you going to buy?

Sony pays $5 / hr.
US TV pays $20 / hr.

So, how does US TV stay in business? No one will buy the more expensive TV, but at the same price, US TV loses money.
That's the problem GM is having right now. GM pays more in employee benefits per car than any foreign manufacturer. That makes them even less competitive in the market. With no outsourcing, that problem is worsened by having more U.S. employees and having to pay their benefits.

So, what's the solution? It's not a simple solution of "getting rid of outsourcing" is it?