quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: Mach10 - logic and reasoning skills like yours leads me to believe that democracy is a bad idea! how do you go from NOT helping complete strangers hide/ run/ or otherwise avoid the police to not buying cookies from Girl Scouts. Next time you see a police car in a high speed pursuit, are you going to get in his way? Help the perp escape? hide his car in your garage? why not? all the cop wants to do is give the other guy a speeding ticket - right?

Ken: I'm a SOCIALIST. Of COURSE Democracy is a bad idea! lol

The bible spouts a BUNCH of stuff about helping your fellow man... Doesn't specify; whether it be alerting him that he's going too fast, or giving him CPR out of the goodness of your heart. Not my position to judge what someone else has done, if I don't know him. And If I DID know him, I'm supposed to be a good samaratin anyway... I'd still give a known escaped convict CPR, just like I give the homeless guy a buck for a cup of coffee (or whatever). Not my place to judge. NO WAY can you pin anything on what that guy does based on the good actions to a total a stranger. Good begets good, not the opposite.

If everyone was nice to each other, we wouldn't HAVE terrorists... We wouldn't HAVE criminals, 'cos everyone would be so gosh-darn nice...

But by secluding ourselves, turning inwards, being unkind, uncaring, we are only creating a breeding ground for this type of behavior.

In the high-speed chase? Sure, if I'm in a vehicle big enough. I'd like to think that if I knew that it was a high-speed chase (can't see THAT much in a rear-view) that I'd do what I could to impede the prick, without risking everything. While I'd probably not mind bringing down a multiple-child-murderer/rapist with me, I'd HATE to be a statistic on the "bored kids" list.

IF mach10's logic is wacked (going to girl guide cookies), yours is too.. we were talking about people who COULD< by some remote possibility, be criminals. Now your talking about a high speed chase. COmbine you and roger, and we have someone who shoots at everyone because they could later become criminals..

what, do we have some sort of law and order obsession going here?
is everyone a criminal? are all cops corrrupt?

Anybody that is breaking the speed limit is technically a criminal, so I guess I do flash my lights at them periodically. Does that make me a bad person? Do I care what you think about me? We live in the USA not communist China. We can do this if we wish, unless there is a specific law saying that we cannot.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Anybody that is breaking the speed limit is technically a criminal, so I guess I do flash my lights at them periodically. Does that make me a bad person? Do I care what you think about me? We live in the USA not communist China. We can do this if we wish, unless there is a specific law saying that we cannot.

That would be true based upon the jurisdiction. Some state's will have all traffic infractions written as criminal, whereas others have a dichotomy of offense classifications. In Arizona, ARS28-701 is your garden variety speeding ticket (up to 20mph over) and it is civil with a maximum jeopardy of $250. They do this to circumvent the Rules of Criminal Procedure so the defendant can't request discovery and has little rights to appeal. I don't know of any laws in Arizona that disallow flashing lights. However, a cop could cite you for driving with your lights off if it occured after dusk, even if for just a moment. You could claim that an oncomming car had his lights off I guess. I don't see it as a big deal.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: We can do this if we wish, unless there is a specific law saying that we cannot.

In some places, it is citeable as "interfering with official police operation" or some other such non-sense.

I flash my lights at people sometimes to warn of cops. Not all the time, though.
I don't like to get pulled over, and either does anyone else.
I don't really think about if I'm helping a criminal or something. I'm just thinking about the normal people who happen to be going 10+ mph over the speed limit.
~sophia

Mach10 - if you are going to plead Christian morals, then you must plead them all. Jesus clearly indicated that none of us are able to do the things we should, and unless God helps us personally on a daily basis, we get worse and worse

and also, civilazation as a whole will continue to go downhill until allhell literally breaks loose.

So your assertion that, if we all be nice then everything will be fine, is not based on christianity.

Giving someone CPR is one thing, helping them avoid the police is another. Christains are required to acknowledge the authority of the governement under which they live. You can openly oppose it if you accept the concequences, but you cannot commit criminal acts and plead Christ as your excuse.

And you are right, its not your place to judge others - thats what we have law enforcement and a judicial system for. By helping someone escape the law, you are guilty of judging them - you are judging them to be innocence, and yourself to be above the law.

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: Mach10 - if you are going to plead Christian morals, then you must plead them all. Jesus clearly indicated that none of us are able to do the things we should, and unless God helps us personally on a daily basis, we get worse and worse and also, civilazation as a whole will continue to go downhill until allhell literally breaks loose. So your assertion that, if we all be nice then everything will be fine, is not based on christianity. Giving someone CPR is one thing, helping them avoid the police is another. Christains are required to acknowledge the authority of the governement under which they live. You can openly oppose it if you accept the concequences, but you cannot commit criminal acts and plead Christ as your excuse. And you are right, its not your place to judge others - thats what we have law enforcement and a judicial system for. By helping someone escape the law, you are guilty of judging them - you are judging them to be innocence, and yourself to be above the law.

ah, yes, give unto caesar, that which is caesar's. i knew this had something to do with jesus!
let him who has no sword, sell his cloak and buy one. reckon we better all go out and buy swords, eh?

"and Judas took a rope and hanged himself"

..... Well?!

Wow...interesting discussion.

I think it would be irresponsible to think that there are so few criminals on the road that helping them avoid a stop is no problem. In fact, in most places, it is interfering with Police business and you can get ticketed for it as well.

At the same time, in IL, you're very unlikely to get stopped if you're going under 80mph, unless they witness you doing something more dangerous at the same time.

I agree bad cops and judiciators (is that a word?) are a very scary concept, and I've faced my share of both. However, that wouldn't make me feel vindicated in attempting to help anyone on the road evade a potential run-in with a likely "good" cop.

Bottom line? If they're doing something bad enough to be pulled over for, they are responsible for their own actions. I take responsibility for my actions every time I get in the car...every time I turn the key...every time I push the needle past 65...

I would think that we would be better off to worry about ourselves in this matter, help others when they need help, but not to help them "not" take responsibility for their actions.

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quote Originally posted by TRiAD: I would think that we would be better off to worry about ourselves in this matter, help others when they need help, but not to help them "not" take responsibility for their actions.

bravo! +!

"let he who is without sin cast the first stone" -Jesus

"GOT HIM DAD!" - Todd Flanders

so who is it you want to stone now?

the speeders?

the cops?!

the flashers?

"EVERYBODY must get stoned!" -Bob Dylan

definately dont cast your pearls - wear them to church - use granite to stone people. or in a pinch, gravel.

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: Definately dont cast your pearls - wear them to church - use granite to stone people. or in a pinch, gravel.

Or, if you are in a place where rocks are scarce, sun-hardened dirt-clods will work!

Ken: So you are saying god is Dead, that there is no hope, and that we are doomed to exterminate ourselves... Nah, I'd like the more hopeful approach; that we'd finally SEE, REALLY see how bad we've pooched things, and en-masse start fixing things.

But by "accepting" the fact that everyone else is slime, and concentrating your efforts to spiritual betterment purely inwards, exactly HOW are you helping matters? I don't think that by nature humans can't be GOOD, and I'm pretty sure that Jesus thought so, too... Otherwise, why bother? I think that humans are naturally weak, and prone to sinning, but that doesn't mean that we are evil. IF everyone would follow their hearts, do the RIGHT thing, then eventually we WOULD pull ourselves out of this slump.

A world without greed, theft, vanity, sloth, etc... Tell me again how that'd be a BAD THING.

Population is a sum of it's parts, and if one more person decides to do the right thing, and "be nice to each other," how is that contributing to the problem?

As far as aiding someone avoid the cops, you are showing them that what they are doing is going to get them caught, and that they should slow down, and abide the rules. I flash my lights at people driving like retards ALL the time, not just when I see a speed-trap...

Actually, I usually let them get caught in that case!

But to argue that they might be a criminal, and that you should turn your back? You are making some pretty wild assumptions...

Whenever I see Radar set up,I flash my lights.I also hardly ever speed,but appreciate it when someone flashes their lights for me,as it may be the time when I am not paying enough attention to my speed.It doesn't seem fair that someone gets a ticket that may be quite expensive(a days pay or more)for a violation that isn't even dangerous(like 42MPH in a 25MPH zone at 2:00AM).I also think that the police should be more aware of the final cost to the violator.Insurors have the right (in New Jersey)to rape their customers for such things.

This is turning into SUCH an amusing discussion...

OK, have you ever let someone pass you in the fast lane by moving over to the right on an expressway? Maybe they were going 100, just let them by. BUT... what if they were RAPISTS and just raped and murdered 37 preschoolers? And their car was full of baby hearts and littlefurrykittytongues. My oblong point is that WTF, the chances you are helping a criminal are slim to nil, and you might be helping them all the time and you just don't know it. ANYTIME someone is speeding, OF COURSE you assume they just killed people. Why else would they go 60 in a 45? [/sarcasm]. C'mon, become realistic... flashing your brights to help a few people avoid the 5-0 is not going to earn you a 1 way ticket to hell. Maybe we should flag down all speeders and kill them on the spot, JUST IN CASE they are murderers. Don't make an assumption, it makes an ass out of you and umption.

uh oh hugh.. YOU are the cause of 9/11...