quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I just wish I had the imagination to believe in Creation..

I mean absolutely no flame by this, please don't take it as such, for it is a genuine question. Why is belief in creation by God called imagination, or fanciful thoughts, but belief in big bang and evolution is considered reality?

Since cooter brought it back to issue

Regarding the original question "Evolution VS Creationism - Is there a right and wrong?" I believe there is, but one has to believe that their is a higher power that humanity has to answer to for this question to be an absolute right or wrong.

quote Originally posted by Gold-86SE: I mean absolutely no flame by this, please don't take it as such, for it is a genuine question. Why is belief in creation by God called imagination, or fanciful thoughts, but belief in big bang and evolution is considered reality? Since cooter brought it back to issue Regarding the original question "Evolution VS Creationism - Is there a right and wrong?" I believe there is, but one has to believe that their is a higher power that humanity has to answer to for this question to be an absolute right or wrong.

BIG BANG theory is a result of evidence like the background radiation at 4.3k not just the WE SAY SO that followers of a god are required to belive. and can and will be improved as more REAL DATA is found and the evidence is tested.
as will DNA data be used to prove what evolved in to what when!!!!
science requires theorys to be tested and accepted or rejected based on real results and MATH, so if the numbers match they move ahead, but if the numbers say noway it is time for a new idea and the theory is rejected or changed that is how a theory becomes a law or not!!!!!

SO if GOD wants to he can show himself to us and belife will turn to fact, but as no one has realy seen him, lately anyway, except some loons like jim jones or david K, faith is a required part of belife.
and unlike science god is not to be tested in any way you must belive according to the book and never dare to test or you are called a heretic [one who asks questions] or a fool to test god or his claimed book/s and their untested laws.
and if their is a god why are there so many many different cults all saying different things.

if their is only one god and he has a plan all would follow that plan .
BUT if each cult invents their own god, then there is no god just imaginations of men and thats what we now have!!!

look at the history, the only facts we have about religions are the history, like wars in gods name, or darkages that the belivers caused, or 9-11, or jonestown, and way toooo many others to list.

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by ray b: BIG BANG theory is a result of evidence like the background radiation at 4.3k not just the WE SAY SO that followers of a god are required to belive. and can and will be improved as more REAL DATA is found and the evidence is tested. as will DNA data be used to prove what evolved in to what when!!!!

I still take issue with the above, but I think I have explained myself fairly well.

quote science requires theorys to be tested and accepted or rejected based on real results and MATH, so if the numbers match they move ahead, but if the numbers say noway it is time for a new idea and the theory is rejected or changed that is how a theory becomes a law or not!!!!!

The problem with the above is that when dealing with the 'big bang' there is absolutely no way to test the 'theory' therefore taking as the explanation for the beginning of life requires faith just like believing in creation.

quote SO if GOD wants to he can show himself to us and belife will turn to fact,

Actually, throughout the OT God revealed Himself in many ways, but it did not change humanity descision to stay selfish. God, came in the flesh as Christ, the Savior, but humanity did not want it. Many saw Him first hand, and what did they do - they put Him on a cross and executed Him. Thus far God's revealing of Himself has not turned humanity into obedient people. So why would it be any different if He did it again?

quote but as no one has realy seen him, lately anyway, except some loons like jim jones or david K,

I am not calling people crazy per se, but leaders like these are not Christ. And the people that follow them, at the minimum, they are dilusioned by the salesmanship.

quote faith is a required part of belife.

Absolutely faith is required to believe in God. But the evidence of His existence is apparant to those that believe. A watch on someone's wrist cannot be there without someone having constructed it. The world as we know it (as far as I believe) did not come into being without a creator.

quote and unlike science god is not to be tested in any way you must belive according to the book and never dare to test or you are called a heretic [one who asks questions] or a fool to test god or his claimed book/s and their untested laws.

Please, see the discussion that follows regarding child/parent relationships to have a basis for the following comment. As far as I know, I as a parent don't like having my authority challenged, and rise up in defense against such challenges when my children act unruly. However, I am not just, I am not perfect, I make mistakes that impact other peoples lives, even though I try not to affect people negatively. My point is this: God, by my understanding of the Bible, is pure - free from hatred of people, is loving, is kind, is gentle, is merciful, but He is also Just and that means when He sets down rules and we break them He is justified in punishing us. He has provided the instructions we have to be willing to accept it.

quote and if their is a god why are there so many many different cults all saying different things.

You know you make a very good point. How can there be one true living God, if there are so many ways to worship Him, believe in/on Him, and still have salvation? The answer to this question is difficult at best, but true. Humanity has through time sought to elevate itself to that of diety, and because of prideful actions, humanity has changed the way in which we worship God. The result of this is the splintering of religious thought, and division which results in the honest and valid question like yours. The only answer I can give to you is this: if you (put aside the OT for now, and put aside all religious teachings for the moment) read the NT the answers are there, clear, evident, and truthful. God does not like nor will He accept humanity's changes. Unfortunately, humanity does not like being told how to do things, therefore humanity has tried to pave its own way to eternal salvation.

quote if their is only one god and he has a plan all would follow that plan .

I believe there is One God, and One Truth. I agree with your statement, all should follow that plan, but humanity chooses not to, this is called free will. For instance, you could make/force your children to do just about anything you want them to do, but does that give them the choice to live their own life. You and your wife created them through your relationship, so has God created you. Just as you treat your children with respect of free choice/will so does God.

quote BUT if each cult invents their own god, then there is no god just imaginations of men and thats what we now have!!!

This is exactly true. I find it heart breaking that there are so many man-made pathways to enteral salvation. Because of the splintering of religious believes many are confused as to why, and become upset, and totally throw off religion all together. A sad state of affairs.

quote look at the history, the only facts we have about religions are the history, like wars in gods name, or darkages that the belivers caused, or 9-11, or jonestown, and way toooo many others to list.

I agree with you. Many throughout history have waged war in God's name, and some still do that very thing today. The only thing I have to say is that the Christ of the NT does not want it to be this way. For on the He night of His betrayal, Peter cut off a centurian's ear. What did Christ do? Put the man's ear back on, and rebuked/chastized Peter for becoming violent.

I would like to return this thread back to its original topic, so ray, if you don't mind, and any others who may want to continue on this side topic send me a Private Message.

Evolution VS Creationism - Is there a right and wrong?

No, there is no right or wrong answer to this question. In order for one answer to be right and the other to be wrong, the right answer has to be PROVEN as fact. And in order for something to be accepted as fact, the results need to be repeatable. If we believe something to be correct, but are not able to prove it, we call it a theory.

Both creationism and evolutionism are theories. Neither one has been proven as fact, and to be honest we will probably never be able to prove one or the other as fact... simply because we are not able to create Big Bangs or make living humans out of mud. Since we cannot cause either of these two things to happen, we cannot prove creationism or evolutionism.

So there ya go.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 09-20-2002).]

quote Originally posted by tali-ban ray: if their is only one god and he has a plan all would follow that plan . BUT if each cult invents their own god, then there is no god just imaginations of men and thats what we now have!!!

Can you prove it? Or is this just your belief?

quote BIG BANG theory is a result of evidence like the background radiation at 4.3k not just the WE SAY SO that followers of a god are required to belive. and can and will be improved as more REAL DATA is found and the evidence is tested.

But the radiation isn't at 4.3k, it varies, which leads to more theories trying to explain why.

quote Originally posted by ray b: ...if their is only one god and he has a plan all would follow that plan...

...And why do you say that? Really...your logic is astoundingly thin.

Let's use a metaphor.

We have an owner at work. He is the acting General Manager. He is very much in charge, and can hire/fire at WILL.

Now, superimposing this to your theroy of God...you say if there was one God with a Plan, all would follow. I ask "why".

1) Because He'd be in control? No, that doesn't work...people disobey our owner at work, when he can in fact fire them for it. People also break laws, even though the judicial system has complete control over their freedoms.
So that can't be it...people disobey even when someone else is in control.

2) Because people would SEE Him, and believe in him? Well, people see and believe in our owner, and they still don't follow the rules there...and people see and believe in the judicial system, and they still break laws.

So tell me Ray, why you think that "if God existed, ALL people would follow him"?

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: ...And why do you say that? Really...your logic is astoundingly thin. Let's use a metaphor. We have an owner at work. He is the acting General Manager. He is very much in charge, and can hire/fire at WILL. Now, superimposing this to your theroy of God...you say if there was one God with a Plan, all would follow. I ask "why". 1) Because He'd be in control? No, that doesn't work...people disobey our owner at work, when he can in fact fire them for it. People also break laws, even though the judicial system has complete control over their freedoms. So that can't be it...people disobey even when someone else is in control. 2) Because people would SEE Him, and believe in him? Well, people see and believe in our owner, and they still don't follow the rules there...and people see and believe in the judicial system, and they still break laws. So tell me Ray, why you think that "if God existed, ALL people would follow him"?

Is it possible that the owner is just ONE owner of ONE store, and if we do not care that much about working at that ONE staore we act like we do.
However, IF God was to show himself in a way that we would all know it was God, how many people including myself would have our jaws drop and get weak in the knees and say it awe, "Oh my God!"

Just wondering

Steve

quote Originally posted by Azarael: Oh ya for any readers of this post ... if you think YOUR relgion answers all questions ... you my friend are an IDIOT

You couldn't have said it better!

quote Originally posted by Leper: Can you prove it? Or is this just your belief But the radiation isn't at 4.3k, it varies, which leads to more theories trying to explain why.

I think the record of religion THAT SHOWS NO HAND of any GOD, SPIRIT, or SON in it's history proves the point better than anything

IF your GOD realy wrote any of the holy books were is the truth that only god would know, and NOT some man of 3000 years ago more or less??? no heaven in hubbles scope anywhere in the sky or NO hell in earthquake wave maps of the in side of earth
the order of the creation of earth made before the stars or light is wrong as all of earth was made in a star then that star must go supernovi only then can earth be made NOWAY BEFORE ANY STAR!!!!!or light
dates of creation are poor guess of early jews NOT DIVINE KNOWLAGE 6000 years is not even close to 4.5 billion years for earth or 15 billion for univerce
flood the intire earth NO NEVER COULD HAPPPEN
stop the sun in the sky NO NEVER COULD HAPPEN
man made of clay?? NO clay in me!!!
woman from a rib?? PLEASE

part 2

microwave back ground does vary a little and we do not yet have all the answers or even all the correct questions to ask to get a an answer. or instirments that give perfect data
but microwaves are still there and current numbers all are close to expected results
in the future we will get better # and more data to refine the picture but NOWAY is an old guy in a bathrobe going to pop out of the background microwaves or a date of 6000 years the debate is it 8 to 20 billion years
for everything and little question that earth
is 4.5 billion years old

again DNA will be the proof evo shortly

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Question wonder and be wierd

IS there a right and wrong? OF COURSE.. Just no on can prove it right now.

But anyways. Why do I think evolution has more "ground" than creation. Simply because yes, there are holes in evolution, but there IS some proof. Whereas creation is all based on "faith" and "belief".. I believe we have even found ripples far beyond which COULD be big bang related. I think there is NO grounds for creation, and at least some (a lot, in my opinion) grounds for evolution.. As for comparing it to the world being flat, etc.. I think it's more fair to compare Creation to the world being flat. To explain things we can't/couldn't understand. As I've said before.. "The earth is flat/thunder comes from God's boomstick/The universe revolves around the earth", etc..

excuse me if this has already been said, but I aint reading back through all that babbling junk ya'll call rational thought. but anywho.. if God created everything and everyone.. who created God? did he just come into being ? or did someone say.. What the heck, and BANG theres a god?

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quote Originally posted by ray b: I think the record of religion THAT SHOWS NO HAND of any GOD, SPIRIT, or SON in it's history proves the point better than anything

In other words it's your belief.

quote IF your GOD realy wrote any of the holy books were is the truth that only god would know, and NOT some man of 3000 years ago more or less???

First off, unlike you, I've kept my religeous beliefs out of this. For all you know, I could worship a pile of dead cow fetus, For not for their death, I wouldn't have as large a supply of delicious chocolate milk to drink.
Back to the topic at hand, If only god would know it, and he told everyone, then everyone would know it and it wouldn't be something that only god would know.

quote no heaven in hubbles scope anywhere in the sky or NO hell in earthquake wave maps of the in side of earth

Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Last I checked, the hubble took plenty of pictures of the heavens. How do you know that heaven lies in this universe? Since you group all religions into one pile, alot of them don't even believe in "heaven" as a place.
Earthquake wave maps show that there's a dead spot in the center of the earth, caused by something solid. Who said "Hell" is on earth? and since you group all religions into one pile, a majority of them don't even believe in Hell.

quote the order of the creation of earth made before the stars or light is wrong as all of earth was made in a star then that star must go supernovi only then can earth be made NOWAY BEFORE ANY STAR!!!!!or light

It never says that the earth was made before any light. It says [gen1:2]"Now the earth became formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep,"
The definition of darkness? http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=darkness
darkness n.
Synonyms: dark, dim, murky, dusky, obscure, opaque, shady, shadowy
These adjectives indicate the absence of light or clarity. Dark, the most widely applicable, can refer to insufficiency of illumination for seeing (a dark evening), deepness of shade or color (dark brown), absence of cheer (a dark, somber mood), or lack of rectitude (a dark past). Dim suggests lack of clarity of outline: “life and the memory of it cramped,/dim, on a piece of Bristol board” (Elizabeth Bishop). It can also apply to a source of light to indicate insufficiency: “storied Windows richly dight,/Casting a dim religious light” (John Milton). Murky implies darkness, often extreme, such as that produced by smoke or fog: “The path was altogether indiscernible in the murky darkness which surrounded them” (Sir Walter Scott). Dusky suggests the dimness that is characteristic of diminishing light, as at twilight: “The dusky night rides down the sky,/And ushers in the morn” (Henry Fielding). Also, it often refers to deepness of shade of a color: “A dusky blush rose to her cheek” (Edith Wharton). Obscure usually means unclear to the mind or senses, but it can refer to physical darkness: the obscure rooms of a shuttered mansion. Opaque means incapable of being penetrated by light: an opaque window shade; figuratively it applies to something that is unintelligible: opaque philosophical arguments. Shady refers literally to what is sheltered from light, especially sunlight (a shady grove of pines) or figuratively to what is of questionable honesty (shady business deals). Shadowy also implies obstructed light (a shadowy path) but may suggest shifting illumination and indistinctness: “ [He] retreated from the limelight to the shadowy fringe of music history” (Charles Sherman). It can also refer to something that seems to lack substance and is mysterious or sinister: a shadowy figure in a black cape.

Again, it's your belief.

quote dates of creation are poor guess of early jews NOT DIVINE KNOWLAGE 6000 years is not even close to 4.5 billion years for earth or 15 billion for univerce

I'll concede this one, but what are you going to do if science proves that they were wrong before and that the earth and the universe are actually older than that still?

quote flood the intire earth NO NEVER COULD HAPPPEN

1: Sure it could, you could almost do it now by melting the polar ice caps, who's to say that the earth would have been as hard to cover with the same amount of water since mountains and ocean valleys may not have been as high/deep? (or is plate tectonics a religeous idea?)

quote stop the sun in the sky NO NEVER COULD HAPPEN

Why not? I can think of a few ways to explain this, but I want to hear why it's impossible.

quote man made of clay?? NO clay in me!!! woman from a rib?? PLEASE

According to evolutionism, life sprang from coincidental mixing of chemicals available on the earth, but it's impossible for someone to use the same chemicals to do the same thing?
Science has proven that it is possible to make a woman from a rib, it's just not doable with our current technology.

quote part 2 microwave back ground does vary a little and we do not yet have all the answers or even all the correct questions to ask to get a an answer. or instirments that give perfect data but microwaves are still there and current numbers all are close to expected results in the future we will get better # and more data to refine the picture but NOWAY is an old guy in a bathrobe going to pop out of the background microwaves or a date of 6000 years the debate is it 8 to 20 billion years for everything and little question that earth is 4.5 billion years old.[/b]

You say that you haven't got the answers, but you still accept it as fact. What if you looked at the bible (as an example, since you keep using it) with a view that you "don't have all the answers, or even the right questions to ask. Or instruments (words in this case) that give perfect data."

quote again DNA will be the proof evo shortly

I'm not disputing that things evolve, I'm disputing that they came from nothing, just like you are claiming that some guy with more powers than you made life from nothing a long time ago.

leper.. man.. You're really grasping for straws there.. You don't understand "darkness"? Please don't tell me you think the earth's core is "hell".

How's it grasping at straws?
Dark, not light. It's dark right now, but it doesn't mean that the sun dissapeared.

Look at Venus, it's a planet with alot of simialarities to earth, probably no life though, because there's a huge cloud of gas covering the planet. That cloud is blocking the light making the surface a cold, dark place. Now you could say that "darkness was over the surface of the deep" couldn't you?

As for the earths core, not having been there in person, I couldn't rule it out as being anything, much less hell.
I just don't make the assumption that it isn't.

quote Originally posted by Leper: Look at Venus, it's a planet with alot of simialarities to earth, probably no life though, because there's a huge cloud of gas covering the planet. That cloud is blocking the light making the surface a cold, dark place. Now you could say that "darkness was over the surface of the deep" couldn't you?

Huh? The surface of venus is about 740Kelvin... That's hot enough to melt lead...

The clouds (Or "darkness" as you call it ) HEAT UP the planet, they don't cool it. The REASON there's no detectable life on Venus is because of the extreme heat, and sulpheric acid atmosphere... Get your facts straight!

The ONLY things that make Venus like earth are the size, and the fact that is HAS an atmosphere.. Nevermind it's made of entirely different things.

quote Originally posted by Leper: How's it grasping at straws? Dark, not light. It's dark right now, but it doesn't mean that the sun dissapeared. Look at Venus, it's a planet with alot of simialarities to earth, probably no life though, because there's a huge cloud of gas covering the planet. That cloud is blocking the light making the surface a cold, dark place. Now you could say that "darkness was over the surface of the deep" couldn't you? As for the earths core, not having been there in person, I couldn't rule it out as being anything, much less hell. I just don't make the assumption that it isn't.

earth before light is the POINT but then it gets worse day #2 mombo about water in heaven
day #3 dry land and trees,grass, and herbs
DAY # 4 now GOD make the SUN MOON and stars
DING DING DING SORRY WRONG ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!
all the stuff in you me and the cat earth moon rock trees every thing was in a realy big star, then the star goes SUPER-NOVI now the stuff is a cloud that forms our star and all the stuff around it like EARTH
so the old book just got the order wrong
good guess by old jews but NOT DIVINE

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Question wonder and be wierd

There is a "Frank & Ernest" comic I remember reading a while back: The two frames are both a picture of the Earth. The first frame has one voice outside of Earth saying, "The Creationists and the Evolutionists are at it again." The second frame has a voice replying, "I wish I had never created evolution."

Just because scientists don't state that there is a supreme being, doesn't mean they don't believe in the existence of one. As a scientist myself, I still believe that there is a being guiding the formation of the universe and the evolution of life. The holy books of the various religions offer stories of morality, and theories about the origin of human life. I say theories because, even if the HUMANS who wrote the books truly received their words from the almighty, they were still human, and got things wrong, and added their own flavor to events. Humans trying to understand events around them, but being unable to by the primitive science available, would naturally claim a supreme being did it. As humans have advanced in their perceptions, they have begun to understand the ways that the supreme being worked. I personally believe that humans are destined to learn how the Creator made the universe, so we may join him/her after we have reached that ultimate knowledge.

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"Wise man say, when in doubt, mumble."

Erwin

I believe in both.

Who ever said that God's day was 24hrs long?

Maybe it was in the millions?

or....

a ship landed and genetically helped the little furry apes along.

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News from Friday:

"ECHO OF BIG BANG SPOTTED BY SCIENTISTS"
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/09/20/cosmic.radiation.reut/index.html

My thoughts on the whole creation vs. evolution argument? We'll I'll have to say I agree with both. While I believe that we are the result of millions of years of evolution, I can't get my head around someone or something having to set the stage up for the big bang to occur. I just can't comprehend how you can create something from nothing. I have always felt it comforting to believe that there is some higher power out there, and that we are all part of his plan. I think its an argument you could spend a lifetime arguing about, but you are not going to be able to find a right or wrong answer. It all comes down to what you personally believe.

Aha! now proof.. Let it go! (And if 1 more person says "How do we know gods days are 24 hours".. I'm going to scream)

Basically it comes doen to this.

"Evolution" is a THEORY, not a FACT

"Creation" could be viewed as an "alternate theory".

Basically, both take "faith"...what made the big bang happen anyways? And why would evolution produce millions of species instead of one "master race"? The whole idea is "survival of the fittest", isn't it?

If you had been taught something other than Evolution in school, THAT would be what you believe. You're just believing in something that was taught to you improperly. NO ONE considers Evolution a "fact". It's a theory.

I still say Evolution (or adaptation) could well have been God's tool used for Creation.

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: Basically it comes doen to this. "Evolution" is a THEORY, not a FACT "Creation" could be viewed as an "alternate theory". Basically, both take "faith"...what made the big bang happen anyways? And why would evolution produce millions of species instead of one "master race"? The whole idea is "survival of the fittest", isn't it? If you had been taught something other than Evolution in school, THAT would be what you believe. You're just believing in something that was taught to you improperly. NO ONE considers Evolution a "fact". It's a theory. I still say Evolution (or adaptation) could well have been God's tool used for Creation.

evo is about 5-to 10 years way from being a FACT just as soon as DNA canbe read it will be call a LAW the process has take 150+ years but it is getting very near its end
as DNA has recorded all the changes and we can DATE when what evolved in to what at each step
all the facts are lining up now NO one who studys DNA doughts this

UNLIKE creation "science" that has not one FACT only an old story backing up it's ideas
no exparemental data at all for supposed theory of 6000 year old earth or plants before the SUN or STARS
so just as evo has been tested and has passed many tests, creation theory has failed many tests as to dates, order of claimed events, and lacks truth as the writers simply were not there!!!!

so NOWAY are the two equal or both valid one passed the test and soon the final exam [evo] and will be a law
and one has failed [creation] and is just a tall tale

==

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: I don't think it is fair to use an example like the world used to be thought to be flat and all that, when that was back when only parts of the world had even been discovered and some were still believing in mythical creatures and such. We have TV and computers and we know what is going on. They didn't have the technology and communication and all like we have now. You are trying to use examples and ideas from a completely different time which is just so....so....I don't even know how to word what I want to say or how to respond that. That is just wrong. Steve

Why? Everything we "know" now could look just as ignorant in 1000 years.

It's not that we were taught it (I don't even know if I was). it's because it's the option that makes most sense.

I wouldn't call creation a theory. Theories need some sort of hypothesis and proofs.. The bible doesn't count.

quote Originally posted by Mach10: Huh? The surface of venus is about 740Kelvin... That's hot enough to melt lead... The clouds (Or "darkness" as you call it ) HEAT UP the planet, they don't cool it. The REASON there's no detectable life on Venus is because of the extreme heat, and sulpheric acid atmosphere... Get your facts straight!

You're right about the temp thing, (I blame it on me trusting my memory and not double checking.) However you got a few things backward as well, The atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide, which is causing the extremely high temperatures, not the clouds, which happen to contain. the sulfuric acid.

Johnnyk, How do we know God's days are 24 hours?

"ECHO OF BIG BANG SPOTTED BY SCIENTISTS"

Looks like a guy in a bathrobe to me Ray

quote Originally posted by ray b: evo is about 5-to 10 years way from being a FACT just as soon as DNA canbe read it will be call a LAW the process has take 150+ years but it is getting very near its end

Ray, I read DNA on a daily basis. I'm a geneticist (MS, PhD). I clone, I replicate, I make new sequences. It's no secret that the genetic code of aves and mammilia are less than 5% different. You can view that in 2 ways. We have a common ancestry... OR this is the best way for life to propogate.

People have a strong misconception about what DNA IS and what it does. *sigh*

quote as DNA has recorded all the changes and we can DATE when what evolved in to what at each step all the facts are lining up now NO one who studys DNA doughts this

You really have no clue, do you? You need to do something besides shoot off your mouth about something you have really no clue about.

quote UNLIKE creation "science" that has not one FACT only an old story backing up it's ideas no exparemental data at all for supposed theory of 6000 year old earth or plants before the SUN or STARS so just as evo has been tested and has passed many tests, creation theory has failed many tests as to dates, order of claimed events, and lacks truth as the writers simply were not there!!!! so NOWAY are the two equal or both valid one passed the test and soon the final exam [evo] and will be a law and one has failed [creation] and is just a tall tale

Wow... how unarticulate... let me guess... high scool graduate?

What tests has evolution passed? I accept the fact that things evolve. Genetic drift and crossing account for quite a bit of genetic diversity even in the past 1000 years. Look at the difference between the build of the Nordic settlers versus common Americans.

Have we been evolving for 4.5 billion years? That's unlikey at best.

Here's the clencher for me. The 'big bang' is a astrophysiological myth. I can name quite a few astrophysicists that have outlined the sheer impossibilty that the chemicals needed to create such a reaction could not be present at the 'righ place right time'. The probability is well beyond 1 / 1x10^800. That's enough for any astute physicist to laugh it up as 'impossible'. (that is, the few astrophysicists that laugh)

Do I believe that there was divine intervention. Yes, to the point that 'divine' is determined by something that we cannot understand as limited human beings.

I mean COME ON! We can't see beyond 1 / 1,000,000th of this galaxy! Is it so hard to grasp the concept that there is somthing out there that transcends our frail attempt at logic?

Just remember... Time is not linear. It's circular. There ISN'T a beginning and there ISN'T an end... to ANYTHING!

We just can't grasp the fact with the puny protein sacs we have for brains.

Please... no one just have diahhrea of the mouth all over this thread without a reason. People are posing legitimate and thoughtful questions...

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I thought this was going to be a thread about cloning. Obviously at least one of these theories is wrong because they can't both be right. On the other hand maybe they're both wrong and a new theory will surface in the future.

Jane

BTW,what was the prize? Did I win? LOL

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 09-23-2002).]

quote Originally posted by ray b: ...evo has been tested and has passed many tests, creation theory has failed many tests as to dates, order of claimed events, and lacks truth as the writers simply were not there!!!!...

1) Evolution hasn't passed any "tests". If you want to claim carbon or radio-dating as "tests", keep this in mind...If I tested the HP on a car on the dyno "after" modification, but not "before", I'd have no "control" to gauge my results. All my results would be speculation, and the data would be null and void.
We need either some dude who watched the big bang to tell us how old a rock is, or some who dated a rock when it was new, to know if our dating processes even work.
We only have had dating technology for what, 50 years at the most? So we have no "control" for these processes more than 50 or so years back.
Scientifically speaking, the entire process is flawed and all data that came from it cannot be considered valid.

2) You cannot say Creation could not be correct because it doesn't appear to agree with the order in which your theory claims things happened, any more than I can claim yours is completely wrong because it appears not to agree with Creationism on the surface.

You never were in a debate team (or english class) were you?

personally I think whether you believe in creation or BB/evolution is not an indication of your intelligence, or your understanding of science or religion.

To accept creation is to admit that something happened in the past that is beyond your ability to comprehend. If God created... then who created God? Impossible to answer.

But to say you believe in the big bang is absurd - In the beginning there was nothing - no matter, no energy, no SPACE and time itself did not exist

Then IT exploded!

what exploded?! how could there be a 'THEN' when time did not exist?!

The big bang theory is NOT a theory - its a fairy tale - its a bunch of words that dont make sense when you string them together.

how can nothing explode?

how can the universe change state from nothing to something when time itself didnt exist?

I propose that BB/evolution is nothing more than the fair tale held as fact by people who are hard core control freaks - they dont want to accept reality as it is, so they decide what is real and what isnt - even though they KNOW what they are saying is nonsense - they still insist its a scientific FACT!

true of the matter is - the origin of the universe and of life is BEYOND our ability to comprehend - if you cant live with that - if that keeps you up at night, then that is a weakness of your character.

Some things are beyond our grasp. Whatever it was that existed before matter, energy, space and time began, you can call it GOD or you can spew a stream of psudoscience mumbo jumbo and call it science

in either case the fact remains - you really cant comprehend it - nobody can.

I don't know if anyone posted this at all but check it out. and I truly beleive in creation. I have a set of six videos of Dr. Kent Hovind displaying many facts.
http://www.drdino.com/

[This message has been edited by Dan Robinson (edited 09-23-2002).]

Wow, this discussion going on again?

Fact is that it really doesn't matter what you believe in. Problems don't start because one is right and the other is wrong, the problems start when one group is trying to convince the other group of their right/wrong (with or without the use of violence).

That's the problem with people. People can't accept it when someone else makes another choice (in life) than they do. You believe in (a) God, so those who don't are short-sighted. You own a Fiero, so MR2 owners are a$$holes. You don't believe in freedom so you fly a couple of airplanes into a few buildings.

I wish people would see it really doesn't matter.

I don't believe the big bang theory came from nothing. I believe the theory is There was mass, infinetly small and infinetly dense.
But you are calling The big bang theory a fairy tale?? WHen put against "God made Adam.. Then he took adam's rib and made a women. They ate the forbidden fruit" WHAT? bahahhahaa..

[This message has been edited by JohnnyK (edited 09-23-2002).]

so you have made up your OWN big bang theory - there was mass but it was infinitely small?

Sorta defeats the purpose of having a scientific theory of the origin of the universe if you just make it up yourself, doesnt it?

was your infinitely small universe resting on a stack of turtles? or did Atlas carry it on his back?

Creationism is right because rayb believes in evolution.

OT: Is it just me or does rayb's ID spell rabid? (raybid)

AgaricX 4.5 billion is the generaly excepted
age of earth NOT LIFE on earth.
but DNA is accepted in courts of LAW to ID a person or say who's the dad of a child NOW

I was watching a Discovery chanel show last week called the REAL EVE, they used microcondial [mom's] DNA to DATE PEOPLE as to when they moved out of africa at 80,000 years ago!!!! allso this has been used to date splits in human and chimps common ancester at several millions of years ago.
why do you misstate this???? Do you realy think DNA cannot DATE?????
and give NO facts to back your statements.

peoples differences in heights and size are based on improved diet and nutrition NOT DNA
as rate of change is too fast.

then jump to attack the BIG BANG???
lets get DNA done before jumping to other things, WHAT AM I WRONG ABOUT in DNA and it's becoming LAW soon.

btw my hobbies include astro-physics, I have read all of steve hawkings books and many other on string theory ect
and my oldest son is a physic's student who has compleated his 3rd year now!!

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 09-23-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Leper: You're right about the temp thing, (I blame it on me trusting my memory and not double checking.) However you got a few things backward as well, The atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide, which is causing the extremely high temperatures, not the clouds, which happen to contain. the sulfuric acid.

I listed the SA in the atmosphere as a reason as to why we aren't finding any Tribbles there, not as a reason for the somewhat, oh, HELLISH climate

But the fault is in my wording I butchered that post... Many appologies; Venus is one huge greenhouse, boiling on the surface, with a corrosive atmosphere...

Better?

Triad: THANK YOU! I think you are the first bible-thumper ( Sorry, couldn't resist! ) that has admitted that creationism is a THEORY.

To all creationists; I'd like for you to consider something. God creates man (however he does it). Man wakes up, and says, God, where do I come from...

Does God:

A) Explain to the first humans over the period of decades about physics, chemistry, organic chemistry, astro-physics, nuclear physics, Genetics, statistics, probability, molecular bioliogy, and all the other good foundations for a complete understanding of how things work, and expect them to repeat it to all other humans that ask?

OR

B) Give them a nice, simple, "Cos I said so" answer that the humans (once they stop EATING the pencils) can faithfully copy down, and teach their offspring, maintaining the important facts (God did it, he did it with basic elements, and that there are 2 types of humans, both slightly different...).

Gee... Which is more plausible? Can you imagine an early agricultural late neolithic tribe of israelites running around with thermonuclear weapons?!?

Creationism is so vague, and so open-ended, that it is perfectly reasonable to fill the gaps with whatever you like.

But that doesn't make it any more or less valid.

As an Anthropologist (God, I GRADUATE in 3 terms ), The 6000yr earth-age goes 100% against everything that I've learned, seen, and discovered for myself.

The sad fact is that many (if not ALL) creation scientists go about trying to PROVE their own theory (Creationism) by pointing out holes in other theories (evolution etc.). Sorry, but logical arguments don't work like that. Disproving a theory doesn't lend any validity to your own.

Science acknowledges that theories are MEANT to have holes shot into them... The only way you prove anything is by ironing out all the wrinkles...

Yes.. A subatomic atom exploded.. hurling matter everywhere.. Radiation was found decades ago, from the explosion itself. And it is also proven that the universe is expanding and galaxies moving away from the center point at speeds relative to their distance. So god made everything at a central, subatomic point, and pushed everything away from each other? Come on guys. Think logically. A big man in the sky invented the universe and people? I don't see why more people don't realize that the bible was made when nothing was understand, so they wrote fairy tales to explain it all.