It's funny. Here in winnipeg, I've NEVER had to wait more than 5 minutes while in Emerg. Well, except once... But that was a little... er... different. I'll spare you the details.

I find that one of the MAJOR drawbacks to free health-care is that EVERYONE uses the emergency room. I get GREAT satisfaction in turfing out the lady with the kid with a paper cut when they wheel me in with my O2 cylinder.

People have to learn that if it isn't potentially DANGEROUS, then it doesn't belong IN EMERGENCY. That's what a Clinic is for

Voytek, being a doctor in the U.S. since 1985, I would like to know what your opinion is on what would be a reasonable salary for a doctor seeing 4 patients per hour on the average for say 50 hours per week, who is also on call on the weekends, and evenings.

Please don't take this as defensive or being upset at what you said. I hear people often complain about doctors salaries, but what I can never get someone to say is, considering what other people in society make for a living, what would be fair for a doctor to make.

Example, pharmacist in the U.S. will take home about $80,000 per year (RossT would know better than I what is current). How much should a doctor make?

Seriously, just curious about what your opinion (and others) is.

The canadian healthcare system used to be good, but to me the quality is rapidly declining. Take for instance my mom, who has been rescheduled 3 times now for a catscan. She has been waiting almost a year and a half to find out why she has blackouts and short term cases of amnesia. Apparently she isn't a high enough priority to be served by our system.

I also hate how the government shut down the hospitals in rural communities and replaced them with health care stations. The people working in these stations are so ill-trained and under equiped that they can't even do a simple procedure such as stitches or examine a burn. They are there solely to build a false sense of security in communities. About five years ago some bleeding idiot doused me in gas at a bush party setting me on fire. My brother had to drive me to four different hospitals before we found one that could get me in. If we hadn't stopped in at all the health stations along the way we could have saved about an hour and a halfs time before I got treatment. So yes its free, but I think there is still a lot of room for improvement from my personal experiences.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: The canadian healthcare system used to be good, but to me the quality is rapidly declining. Take for instance my mom, who has been rescheduled 3 times now for a catscan. She has been waiting almost a year and a half to find out why she has blackouts and short term cases of amnesia. Apparently she isn't a high enough priority to be served by our system. I also hate how the government shut down the hospitals in rural communities and replaced them with health care stations. The people working in these stations are so ill-trained and under equiped that they can't even do a simple procedure such as stitches or examine a burn. They are there solely to build a false sense of security in communities. About five years ago some bleeding idiot doused me in gas at a bush party setting me on fire. My brother had to drive me to four different hospitals before we found one that could get me in. If we hadn't stopped in at all the health stations along the way we could have saved about an hour and a halfs time before I got treatment. So yes its free, but I think there is still a lot of room for improvement from my personal experiences.

I feel for you man. Healthcare can be awesome, but it DOES have it's down-points. Government cutbacks are the greatest of them.

Originally posted by frontal lobe:
...The problem with U.S. education isn't money, it's that "parents" have tried to turn it into a social system and child care. Again, the problem of the people shirking responsibility and then looking to the government to take care of them, and then the government taxing the responsible people to death to pay for the irresponsible.

My wife gets to see this "up close and personal." She teaches high-school. You would be amazed at the complete lack of responsibility that some people (students and their parents) have.

Same deal with health care. Spend ALL your money, take terrible care of yourself, reach an age where your decisions start to take their toll, and then want the HIGHEST QUALITY (not just reasonable) health care AND WANT SOMEONE ELSE TO PAY FOR IT...

Did you ever notice that the people nearest or below the poverty level (therefore, the ones accepting government assistance) seem to be the same demographic who spend the most money on lottery tickets, beer and cigarettes, and then whine about how they never have any money and always feel like crap?

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Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-21-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Did you ever notice that the people nearest or below the poverty level (therefore, the ones accepting government assistance) seem to be the same demographic who spend the most money on lottery tickets, beer and cigarettes, and then whine about how they never have any money and always feel like crap?

ROFL! SO TRUE!

Raydar, your last statement is so true. Two of my good friends got laid off last christmas, and since then they have been living off unemployment insurance and spend probably a good 7-10 hours a day sitting in front of VLT machines, cigarette in one hand, beer in the other. No matter how hard I try to understand whats going through their head, I just can't comprehend why when your already financially struggly why one would chose to spend what money they do have on those cursed gambling machines. I would guess its easier to fall into a rut than to climb out.

Hey Galen. Stop laying so much crap on Ray-B all the time. We want a turn too.

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My Fiero | Fiero Accessories

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Hey Galen. Stop laying so much crap on Ray-B all the time. We want a turn too.

I gave ya'll a whole day.. I admit I didn't do it on purpose, I did not choose to be sick like I was yesterday, I would have chose NOT to be sick like I was yesterday. But hey, it happens. Hopefully not again for a VERY VERY long time.

I read a funny on the last page, someone called ray_b a **** addict I chuckled .

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Fierosite.com - The webs #1 Fiero Search Engine

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: The canadian healthcare system used to be good, but to me the quality is rapidly declining. Take for instance my mom, who has been rescheduled 3 times now for a catscan. She has been waiting almost a year and a half to find out why she has blackouts and short term cases of amnesia. Apparently she isn't a high enough priority to be served by our system. I also hate how the government shut down the hospitals in rural communities and replaced them with health care stations. The people working in these stations are so ill-trained and under equiped that they can't even do a simple procedure such as stitches or examine a burn. They are there solely to build a false sense of security in communities. About five years ago some bleeding idiot doused me in gas at a bush party setting me on fire. My brother had to drive me to four different hospitals before we found one that could get me in. If we hadn't stopped in at all the health stations along the way we could have saved about an hour and a halfs time before I got treatment. So yes its free, but I think there is still a lot of room for improvement from my personal experiences.

Loafer - You are VERY right. I know a guy who's had a problem with a couple tendons in his foot. He's a welding shop foreman and spends most of his time on his feet. He needs a VERY MINOR surgery. The waiting list is just over 2 YEARS!!! He will get it done about a month from now by paying $480 in a private clinic. A system for the rich? You bet your booties.

Frontal Lobe - $80,000 a year for a pharmacist is INSANE. This is where proportions come in. Just how important is a pharmacist's job? Obviously this has got to do with their shortage. It is the same story here in Canada.

As far as doctors are concerned, it used to be about the passion to heal people (a long, long time ago). What do I think a reasonable compensation for a doctor is? Well, for starters, due to the lengthy education and additional hours, yes, I believe they deserve more than the average engineer. I guess it's hard to put a number on it but, as it stands, I believe they make way too much in the US and probably OK in Canada. The problem is as long as doctors in the US earn what they earn, we will continue losing specialists.

Voytek, again just to make it clear, I am just discussing this and we are in no way arguing.

As in most jobs, people can have several motives for doing it. My number 1, over-riding motive is to help people. So just because earning a living is in the top 5 motives doesn't make the work any less noble.

I would like to make more than, say, a plumber (no offense to any plumbers on the forum, we need you), yet they charge way more to visit me than I charge to visit a patient.

We can argue relative values, but I can't calibrate whether I am over-paid in the eyes of the majority, because I can never get anyone to give me an actual number (or range) of what people think I should be paid.

So I'm still waiting to hear solid numbers.

P.S. That 80,000 per year for pharmacists is U.S. dollars, and is on the low end of the range.

I have been watching this thread for a while and want to chime in.

I believe that what I see is the successfullness of governments to demogue(sp) and demonize private industry. From MicroSoft, to auto manufacturers, to the health care industry.

As far as I know, there is absolutely no proof where a government taxes it's citizens into prosperity, better living conditions, or better lives. The only thing governments do is grow too large to do any good. They let criminals go free and punish the victim citizen.

Betterment of the individual comes from caring individuals and those individuals forming a community of growth. No government can substitute for good ole fashioned hard work. Work is hard. Work is not always enjoyable. But work always rewards with accomplishment. Too many people want things handed to them without having to go through the rigors to achieve, and then b!tch and moan that they should receive special treatment because they don't have what the "rich people" have.

Rich is always a relative term. Someone who makes 10k a year sees a guy at 40k year as rich. The guy at 40k sees 80k rich. The guy at 80k sees a guy at 120k a year as rich, and it keeps going. But the one constant is that those who see the other guy as rich, always want to have what the rich guy has.

Leaders, in the US, are in power by an electorate, and if the leaders can keep the electorate ambivalent, ignorant, or stupid then the leaders can manipulate the citizenry to back bite and construct an attitude of get-givenism between classes of people, creating a situation that promotes nothing but hatred between people and empowers noone but the government.

There is and always will be those who have special or drastic medical conditions, but the solution is not "free health care" which is not free at all, it is paid by the citizens. I have lived socialized medicine for I am a military brat, and it is not the best system. True competion breeds better products and better prices, everytime, in every industry, every where.

You want a small example. Look at the cell phone industry. Better phones, better service, more minutes, better coverage, and everyone tries to have the best price. Competition runs the market (albeit it does have some regulation) and the customers are better for it. Same holds true for health care.