as a 17 year old driver... i think you should only be able to attain a driver license when you are 18 AND graduated from high school... this would solve alot more problems than just road safety.

and in response to BN Boomer... so it really doesnt matter what you drive as long as you can afford it eh? aight well when i win the lottery, or get drafted in the baseball draft (fingers crossed), then im gonna buy me a tank, not a big SUV, but an actual TANK... im never going to take it offroad, for fear that it might damage the camo paint job, but instead, im just going to drive it on the streets, nevermind the fact that i cannot see anyone around me and will be too lazy to actually LOOK BACK and see if anyone is behind me... and im going to push that tank to the floor and weave in and out of traffic like im some important fella cuz im driving a tank and I cant get hurt. and heck, why will i even need to pay attention to anyone else, the tank will be armored, so I WILL be safe, i dont really care about anyone else, because im a hot shot cool guy driving a tank.

David

oh and by the way, nevermind the fact that when tanks become popular to drive, thier 3 mpg will drain the gas/oil supply so much that gas prices double....

Boy, you guys just can't let sleeping dogs be, can you?

vietnow, maybe once you grow up and present some sort of rational point rather than your muddled ramblings the rest of us may be able to understand it.

quote I bet you 4 or more out of 10 poeple that buy SUV's will say that they bought it because they like having a bigger car than other people.

I bet that 4 or more people who buy SUVs do so because they like a bigger vehicle, period. Or maybe 4 out of 10 minivan buyers do so because they like a vehicle bigger than everyone else, right?

Accept that not everyone shares your enthusiasm about being crammed into some crappy econobox. Some of us are old enough to remember when they made cars that you carry the family and a bunch of stuff in and still stretch out. Others of us have active families to move around with all the attendant gear that goes along with them. And yes, some of us actually do need offroad capability.

quote I say, if you dont need the ground clearance or 4x4, get a minivan people! much safer! But im simply stated that SUV's can cause much more damage in a wreck at any speed. Prove me wrong

Cause much more damage than what? A pedestrian, a bicycle, a rusty old Celica, a minivan, a pickup truck, a school bus, or an 18 wheeler? There are a lot bigger threats to your safety out there than SUVs, yet you do not appear to be obsessing about them. Why not? So why single out the SUV? EVERYTHING would cause much less damage if our speed limits were lower, so why aren't you championing that cause? I suspect that it's because you are not as genuinely concerned about safety as you pretend to be in expressing your distaste for SUVs. Hell, if you don't want one, don't buy one. But knock off the false pretense regarding safety, it really is thinner than the metal Asian cars are constructed of.

Do explain to me how getting hit by a minivan, your own personal recommendation with which to replace a SUV, is going to do any less damage than getting hit by a typical SUV when the overall mass and weight of the two types of vehicles are similar.

And how many SUVs have you been hit by, anyhow? Why all the paranoia? Maybe you should just stick to public transportation. Just think how safe you will feel in that bus or commuter train! After all, they're much bigger than any SUV. And size is apparently all that matters to you.

jlhuber, I still disagree. It doesn't take any extra effort to see smaller vehicles around you in an SUV. I mentioned the Fiero only as an example of a non-SUV that, at least for me, does require a bit of extra effort to check the blind spots. So the point is pretty much moot. Like you said, it's the driver. As far as I am concerned, a careless driver in a Camry is just a big of a threat to me as one in a 4Runner regardless of whether I'm driving my Suburban or my Fiero.

2exess, how much operational experience do you have in armor? What is or was your MOS? I've seen fellow crewmen banged up really bad from just driving over rough terrain, let alone a serious impact. If you truly have much experience with armor, you would already know what my point is.

quote It doesn't seem to be getting to you that the SUVs have a higher stance that causes more blind spots

It doesn't seem to be getting to you that I disagree with that opinion. I would agree with your opinion if we were discussing semi-trucks, MBTs, or APCs, but we aren't. If a SUV is truly that difficult for you or anyone else here to operate, then by all means please do indeed do the rest of us a favor and not buy or drive one.

My wife is 5'2" and has absolutely NO problem driving a 3/4 ton Suburban in any traffic imaginable in the greater Seattle/Puget Sound area. As far as I am concerned, if someone as petite as my wife can drive one of the biggest SUVs around without any problems, the arguments presented thus far just don't hold water.

fierospeeder, my pickup was once struck from behind by a Volvo and on another occassion struck head on by a Celica. I guess I should ignorantly spout off about how I hate cars and blame the vehicles themselves for the manner in which they were operated, huh? Good thing it wasn't a minivan or station wagon in your convenient story, what would you have ranted about then?

And lastly, in response to Slick781, if you truly want to drive a tank, maybe you should enlist in the Army. Might even help clear up some of your gross misconceptions.

[This message has been edited by BN Boomer (edited 12-23-2000).]

example: 2000 Ford Excursion (ewww), and a 1988 Fiero GT. Look at the height difference. If the fiero is sitting in the lane to the right side of the excursion, how easily could you see it from the drivers seat of the excursion? I know that you don't have an excursion, but once again, it is for the sake of the arguement. Now sit in the fiero and tell me what you can't avoid seeing in the left lane next to you. It is different if you have a mirror that allows you to see right next to you, or a passenger in your passenger seat that can look for you. I have never personally driven an SUV, I have driven bread trucks though which have horrible blind spots unless you know how to use mirrors ("objects in mirror are closer than they appear").

I totally agree that it is the driver not the car, but the most common vehicle that I see careless drivers driving (where I am from) are SUVs, so it is back to the stereotyping. You can't deny that people stereotype. Look at the fiero, "oh no, they catch on fire, I am not going to buy one because of that fact." We all know the reality of that statement, but look at how many people out there stereotyped the fiero as "a car that catches on fire". It is the same with SUVs. Most (read: everyone) stereotypes SUV drivers as a$$holes just because a couple of them are. Not everyone who drives SUVs are a$$holes, but people have seen enough of them to stereotype it that way. I don't give a flying F*%K what you drive, as long as whatever you do drive, you drive it responsibly. As long as I have full coverage, I could care less if someone crashes into my truck as long as I and nobody else is seriously injured. You can always repair/replace a dead car, but how do you repair/replace a dead human?

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--Jess--

boomer... gross misconceptions eh? i coulda swore that whole second paragraph was sarcasm... but i guess you would know better than me, since it seems to be YOUR life that is revolving around this message thread...

i agree, heh heh heh.

Boomer, is your wife the same as everyone elses wife? completely competant with driving a huge SUV? i doubt it.

ANY stupid driver behind the wheel of ANY vehicle is dangerous.

ok , DR. BOOMER. You can 'feel' safe all you want in your gas guzzling SUV. I dont care, i can feel scared all i want in my 'rusted celica'. That doesnt make anyone out there a better driver, and it doesnt make me want to go buy an SUV

the chances of being hit by a school bus, 18 wheeler, or any other vehicle, are just as slim as getting hit by a YUGO. Compare the number of school buses and 18 wheelers on CITY roads, to the number of SUV's.

How many retarded drivers do you think drive school buses? NONE, they hire good, trustworthy drivers for jobs like that. You have to have a SPECIAL LICENSE.

I am worried equally about being hit by an SUV, or any other car. It just bothers me that the SUV could do more damage.

Thats my opinion. your not gonna change it by bashing my age, my car, or the typos i make. I dont know why you make this personal, I'm not bashing you, or your SUV. You seem to put the damn thing to good use.
No problem with that.

Maybe ill buy a School bus, to haul all my friends, family, and all the respective gear, AND STILL HAVE LEG ROOM.

Hell, if everyone EXCEPT you drove a schoolbus, im sure we would hear some complaints out of you.

I supposed we just drop it. We dont like SUV's, and you dont like us.

jlhuber, I would respectfully suggest that you try driving a SUV sometime before accepting commonly held misconceptions about them. They really aren't any more difficult to see out of than a normal car. I can see where your logic regarding vision from the Excursion vs. the Fiero stems from, but in real life it just isn't the case in my experience.

Slick781, I suspected that your post was a poorly executed attempt at sophmoric sarcasm. As evidenced by your relatively quick response, I suppose it can be now assumed that your life is now revolving around this thread as well. Welcome to the club. Next thing you know, you'll be driving a SUV, too.

vietnow,

quote Boomer, is your wife the same as everyone elses wife?

As far as I can tell, yes. Out in the country where I live, I see plenty of women driving big SUVs, crew cab pickups, etc, without any problem. I see some of them driving around in Seattle, too, again without problems. Maybe it's just something about those southern women where you live, who knows.... (start playing "Deliverence-esque" banjo music now).

quote Compare the number of school buses and 18 wheelers on CITY roads, to the number of SUV's.

Well, then, I'll take it that Huntsville doesn't have the bristling economy, seaport, or transportation, timber, or agricultural industries that the Puget Sound region enjoys. I find myself much more concerned when around semi-trucks nearly blinding my with road spray in heavy traffic than any SUV, which pale by comparison.

quote How many retarded drivers do you think drive school buses? NONE, they hire good, trustworthy drivers for jobs like that. You have to have a SPECIAL LICENSE.

Let's see, in my neck of the woods the job pays something $10 or $11 an hour. You're not exactly going to draw the cream of the crop around here with wages like that. And SPECIAL LICENSE? Maybe you should go find out for yourself how difficult it is to get a Chaufer's license before suggesting that one is some sort of evidence of a higher degree of driver training or driving ability.

quote We dont like SUV's, and you dont like us.

Wow, another brilliant assumption. Is it any wonder why I take such exception to ignorance like that? I don't know any of you well enough to have formed an opinion on whether I like you or not. What I definitely do not like are ignorant, uneducated generalizations. Stop making them and we won't have any further problems.

quote I supposed we just drop it.

Fair enough. I can accept that we have differences of opinions and leave it at that. Let's see if anyone else is able to.

boomer, i find it hard to say that you can accept anything.

your hard headedness has shown from the first post you made.

this all has been opinion, it started out as opinion, but you made it personal, then started bashing fieros.

maybe im wrong for 'not liking SUV's' but i think we all have one thing we can agree on, that stupid drivers are what we are really scared of. it doesnt really matter what vehicle they drive, but a stupid driver in an SUV scares me the most. im not in contact with 18 wheelers on the roads daily, im in contanct with your everyday driver.

we all 'prefer' certian types of cars. and it seems this thread has gone to bashing of personal tastes and opinion. i never bashed you, boomer, about driving an SUV, i never said once that you or your wife didnt know how to drive it. i didnt say every person who drives an SUV is stupid and probably talking on a cell phone causing a wreck.
but you act like i have.

i accepted everyones opinion from day one. i started this thread to get peoples opinions.

Since this (and a few other) threads keep me from checking the Forum at work because of the language and stuff, I might as well add my 2 cents. The following info comes from the MHSTA website. It is fact.

There are two characteristics of LTVs that could potentially drive fatalities higher: rollover propensity and compatibility. In fatal crashes, SUVs are twice as likely to have rolled over than passenger cars. A rollover increases the likelihood of occupant ejection, fatality or injury.

Compatibility involves differences in vehicle characteristics between passenger cars and LTVs such as weight, height off the ground, geometry and stiffness. NHTSA crash statistics demonstrate that, in side impact crashes, LTVs are more injurious as a striking vehicle than are passenger cars. For example, when LTVs strike passenger cars on the left side, the risk of death to the car driver can be 30 times higher than the risk to the LTV occupant. This compares to a driver fatality ratio of 6.6 to 1 in car-to-car left side impact crashes.

Although vehicle weight is only one characteristic distinguishing LTVs from cars, it is most often cited when discussing the issue of vehicle incompatibility. In general, when heavy vehicles strike lighter vehicles the overwhelming majority of fatalities occur in lighter vehicles.

In 1996, 30 percent of all passenger car and LTV fatalities were due to rollover crashes. But LTVs are involved in fatal rollover crashes at a much higher rate. As indicated in figure 4, SUVs have the highest rate of fatal crashes involving rollover (37 percent). The difference in rollover propensity is due to handling and stability factors and the manner in which the vehicles are driven.

Agency evaluations have found that vehicles with anti-lock brake systems (ABS) have a statistically significant increase in the single vehicle run-off-road crashes (rollovers or impacts with fixed objects). It is unknown to what extent, if any, this increase is due to incorrect use of the ABS system by drivers.

Within these vehicle categories, high risk populations have been identified. For example, the rate of fatalities among older drivers of certain categories of LTVs almost doubled between 1988 and 1996, while the rate for younger drivers, although high, has been declining. The rate of fatalities in rural vs urban areas is split about evenly for passenger cars, utility vehicles and vans.

Now after reading this, just how safe is the SUV to its occupants? It sounds like the driver of the SUV is as much of a risk to himself as he is to the rest of the general public. Maybe Darwin's theory of poor gene elimination is true after all.

My MOS is in Armor. M1A1s to be precise. I've never seen any crew members banged up form any terrain or ever heard of such a thing.

I have a 97 Transport that I have no problems operating. I'm not trying to get involved in this whole mess.

Forget I was even here.Because I even said I don't care what people drive as long as they drive it safely.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

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Jeff