SUVs for the most part are strictly a status symbol

quote Originally posted by streetracer: as far as SUV's i dont care for them at all. I drive a dump truck and all i see on the road are these a**holes in there suv's that think they own the road. It's like the two go hand in hand, if youown an suv your an a**hole driverBy the way i almost died on the highway this past summer on my motorcycle (Yamaha YZFR6) because some yuppie pulled directly into my lane throwing me over to the shoulder at about 70 mph

Easy killer. Not all of us by these "gas guzzlers" to aim for motorcyclists. I own a 86 SE and my wife has her 99 Explorer Sport 2DR 4X4. Some of us buy these for practicality. Im military and drove from Alaska. That’s one of the few type of vehicles that I thought could actually handle these extreme conditions.
My wife and I didn't buy it so we could aim for smaller vehicles on the road. In fact I’m glad she has it because my kids ride in it (they are not little monkeys either).They both stay buckled in there seats for the duration of their trip. And yes, as long as my family is in the SUV, I hope it is tougher than any vehicle on the road. Uh, my kids are more precious to me than your Yamaha YZFR6.
I’m not getting angry. And I hope this does not upset streetracer or anyone else on the forum. I just don’t think my kids are little monkeys that climb all over the back seat nor does my wife put on makeup while driving or hog the road because she in the Explorer

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GKozlovs Fiero Site

That's funny, I operate freight trains for a living and I personally think that truck drivers are the biggest assholes on the road. More than anyone else, they endanger themselves and everyone around them by driving fatigued and taking chances just to save a little bit of time. I'm much more likely to see a trucker trying to beat a train at a crossing than anyone else. Getting a license to drive a truck should be far more difficult than it currently is and far easier to lose for those who don't obey the rules and cheat. They should be as strictly regulated as, say, us guys who operate trains.

Truck drivers used to be really bad on I-95, but then State troopers REALLY started to crack down on their driving, often times leading to their license being revolked or suspended.

I think this thread shows how many people hate SUVs, especially with smaller cars like Fiero's. I think their should be special classes and/or licenses to drive them.

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Jeff
'88 GT t-top 3.4
Baltimore, MD

I guess that I am too "thrifty" to spend $30,000+ for an overgrown station wagon on steroids. If I wanted one, I could afford it but I-and many others here- don't see the need in driving a 9 passenger tank when only one person is in it. Excuse me, but that just doesn't make much sense. It is just another fad or trend in the auto maker's world and eventually this will also pass- remember those tanks from the 70's? I still find it comical when I see a loaded 4x4 SUV with the leather, towing package and all the little gadgets, then see some little banker lady struggle to climb into it. Maybe that is an example of "More money than sense". Flame on!

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: I think this thread shows how many people hate SUVs, especially with smaller cars like Fiero's. I think their should be special classes and/or licenses to drive them.

I personally think this thread shows how much bias, envy, and plain ignorance still exists in our society. SUVs aren't any more difficult to drive than a pickup and many SUVs are evolving into unibody designs with considerable emphasis on safety being engineered into them.

But I do believe you're right on one point, there should be special classes and/or licenses to drive sport cars such as Fieros.

In choosing to drive a small economy car, you choose to accept the inherent drawbacks and compromises that come with it.

Unbelievable.

Every arguement against an SUV listed so far boils down to one thing. One inherent design flaw. The same design flaw that exists for EVERY AUTOMOBILE ON THE ROAD TODAY. Put simply, the weak link is A LOOSE NUT BEHIND THE WHEEL!

Do you guys really think that getting behind the wheel of an SUV automatically has some Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde effect that turns the driver into some kind of roadwarrior? I havent experienced that yet. I have yet to feel the need to run some unsuspecting sports car off the road, or tailgate someone in traffic just because I can.

Whats next? Are Volvos going to be declared so safe for the people inside that they are too dangerous for those unlucky enough to be hit by one (or just not riding in one)? Should volvo owners pay more for insurance because there vehicles are built well.

Besides that, A full size pickup truck will do as much damage as an SUV. This generation of SUVs were born from pickups with toppers anyway.

Drivers licenses for different weight classes of passenger vehicles is a good idea. I say take it one step further and classify them by horsepower as well. No 16 year old needs to be driving a Z28 or Mustang GT. I say limit them to >150hp until there 18.

The wrong person behind the wheel of any vehicle will do plenty of damage. It sounds like the only solution to this problem is to let "big brother" decide what type of vehicle we actually need.

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Dillon
Black '87 SE V6
"You mean like the back seat of a Volkswagen?"

Hey DJRice,

That's what we were TRYING to do, but they just refuse to let GORE win!!! Joking.

Counting the days. 12 more days until my trip to DJRiceland! The fact that it's already snowed 6 inches today and it's only 2pm doesn't make me any more anxious.

Dillon, the only problem is there would be no way to regulate by Hp like you propose. The Fiero is a perfect example. One day it has a tired old 2.8 with barely 135 Hp, next day you have a built up 3.4 pushing out that Hp at the wheels, yet looks 100% stock.

The assumption that "envy" is present in the posts we have seen is down right laughable. I think if anyone here was "envious" of an SUV, they would just get one. It's not like we are talking about a $350,000 Lamborghini Diablo dream machine here. I could easily sell my Fiero and use that money as a downpayment on a new SUV, maybe I should then I can be a member of the yuppy SUV drivers and run everyone off the road too...

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Jeff
'88 GT t-top 3.4
Baltimore, MD

I was attempting to remain on the sidelines, but I've got to jump in.

I commute 30 miles, one way, in Atlanta rush-hour traffic. Most days, I drive my S-10. Otherwise, it's the Fiero. I have found that the smaller the car you drive, the more obnoxious the other drivers are. SUV drivers are no worse than Buick drivers or Beemer drivers or Honda drivers. Seems like nobody has any freaking manners, on the road. The only thing that makes the SUVs more offensive is that they are just bigger.

I would like to see the following things happen...

1. It should be much more difficult to get a drivers license. I don't know about other states, but in GA you can get a license if you can answer some questions, parallel park, and drive around a parking lot without killing any cones. You don't even have to leave the parking lot and drive on the road!
2. There should be substantial penalties for being a left lane hog. If you don't want to go fast, that's fine. Get the hell over! You don't enforce the freaking speed laws.
3. There should be substantial penalties for driving like an ass. Cutting people off, and such. Just generally agressive (or intimidating) driving. Speeding should be waaaayyy down the list, if you are not being a danger to other traffic, i.e. deserted interstate.
4. I believe that if someone hits another vehicle because they were tailgating, and they are driving a substantially larger vehicle, that they should be charged with assault with a motor vehicle, in addition to the normal "following too close, resulting in an accident."

[/rant]

Oh yeah. FWIW... At some point I will probably buy a full size pickup. My S-10 is fine for 95% of what I need a truck for. The only things it can't do, are tow a two-axle trailer (for those "dead" project cars), and bring home plywood, laid flat in the bed.

Thanks for the space.

Raydar

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-11-2000).]

My '96 S-10 (6 auto)towed a 2 axle U-Haul car caddy from Philly to RI with out any trouble. Kept right up with traffic.

Raydar, I agree totally. Especially about the left lane hog thing. God it irritates the crap out of me when some old woman in a buick is doing 60 in the left lane with not a single car in sight ahead of her. Then to make it worst you are the first car behind her, so you have to wait for all the guys behind you to pass before you can.

In MD getting your license is about the same. You should have to drive around on the streets/highways. Like my driving instructor told me, all the driving test proves is that you can maneuver a car.

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Jeff
'88 GT t-top 3.4
Baltimore, MD

quote Originally posted by Black88GT: The assumption that "envy" is present in the posts we have seen is down right laughable. I think if anyone here was "envious" of an SUV, they would just get one. It's not like we are talking about a $350,000 Lamborghini Diablo dream machine here. I could easily sell my Fiero and use that money as a downpayment on a new SUV, maybe I should then I can be a member of the yuppy SUV drivers and run everyone off the road too...

Okay, so you are only biased and ignorant, not envious, too. Good for you. My guess is that you'll spare yourself the $500 per month payments, keep your Fiero, and continue to delude yourself that you have some sort of sport car or collectible. I still suspect that many here just don't like the conspicuous display of wealth and success by others who can afford to be impractical when buying and using products totally outside of their intended realm. It must really suck going through life so dissatisfied with oneself that one must continually lash out others.

Heck, to be honest, owning a Fiero I actually NEED some sort of truck or SUV to haul home the all of the parts needed to keep it running or to tow the hulk home when it breaks down and can't be repaired on the roadside.

Something else I'm curious about. Since all you worry warts keep harping about safety, I'm wondering what your stance is on returning to the 55mph maximum speed limit. After all, you cannot refute the statistics unquestionably proving that accidents and fatalities have increased correspondingly to the increase in speed limits. Something tells me that I'm about to get an enormous whiff of hypocracy over this one. So, are you guys truly concerned about safety or do you just rant and spew about it when it's convenient for your position? Any one care to answer? Anyone?

[This message has been edited by BN Boomer (edited 12-11-2000).]

Boomer, you are getting INTO this board thing, aren't you?
So 55 may save lives, but I'd sure like to get where I'm going before the cows come home. Anyway I think you're talking apples & oranges. The 'safety' category could take us all kinds of directions.
Raydar, I too agree with you entirely. I would add something that many people disagree with: mass transit. I'll kick that dead horse on some other thread. But making licenses MUCH tougher to get would hopefully take a lot of undesirable drivers off the road, and in turn boost carpooling since those people will need to get a ride with someone else.
I don't like that the authorities can't do anything about it when you want to turn somebody in for something. Those who haven't had moving violations in a long time ought to be able to point a finger at someone and say FOUL, and it gets taken seriously. Or at least it should lower your insurance premium, because you're taking an active role in making the roads safer.

Think about it this way. Not everyone driving an SUV needs one,but they like the look or the status they feel it represents. On the other hand some people use them as they were intended and don't realy care to drive them as a daily driver.

I see both type of people on the freeways around Dallas Texas. In the last 2 years I put 95000 miles on my Grand Am while working. I have been in 6 (what I can remember) close calls on the road in the last two years 5 of them involved a vehicle that was a great deal larger than mine, only one was a comercial truck the others were all SUV's.

I think when people get in a vehicle they feel safe in they are less concerned with others on the road. This is not a putdown on anyone, it's human nature.

Here is an example:

you are in the checkout line at your local grocery and someone cuts in front of you. You will mumble to your self or maybe politly inform them of their error. But if you are on the freeway and you think the person already in front of you, is going slower than you think they should; you will start calling them every name in the book and giving rude hand guestures. Now if you were to do that to the man in the grocery line they might turn and kick your A**. It all happens behind the scenes in your head, you dont even think about it.

Now like I mentioned above I live in Texas, It is legal hear to carry a hand gun, with a permit. I have only made its presence known one time while on the roads. A man in an suburban Cut me off and ran me into the median, I shot him the bird. I pulled back onto the road and thought that that was the end of it, I was pissed but he was gone. 5 minutes later I look up and this a**hole is behind me, he must have got off at the next exit and waited for me. He was flashing his lights, honking his horn, calling me God only knows what, and motioning for me to pull over. So I pull over and this guy gets out of his Suburban (he is about twice my size) and starts walking towards me screaming that I fliped him off. I reached on my seat and pulled out my pistol and held it buy my side so he could see it. This Shut him up, he started to apoligize for the misunderstanding.

This story is just to show how people react to situations when they feel safe. I would never shoot someone unles my life was threatened, but I do feel safe. He also felt safe in two ways, 1)on the road because he was in a large SUV and 2)when he exited the truck because of his physical size.

This is just the point of view of a guy who in the last 10 years has diven more miles then most people will in thier entire life.

If you disagree - Please FLAME ON

[This message has been edited by RNGCRSH (edited 12-11-2000).]

Frontal,

I had to use my A/C today. Hehe.

Black88GT,

The comment about licensing based on HP was mostly a smarta*s remark, however, some kids manage to get ahold of cars that are way more powerful than they should have before they are 18-20.

As for the whole "look" or "status" of an SUV, dont count out the fact that they are just plain comfortable. And If I was worried about status with mine, I might wash it more often than once every 2-3 months.

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Dillon
Black '87 SE V6
"You mean like the back seat of a Volkswagen?"

Geesh BN Boomer, who stuck the pole up your a$$?

Why do you even own a Fiero? All I hear you do is talk about how you need so much money to keep it running and what not. Why not just sell it and use the money on one of your yuppy mobiles?

"continue to delude yourself that you have some sort of sport car or collectible. "

Thats funny. This is called a Fiero Forum and your outright bashing the car? I know there has to be a yuppy SUV forum, I mean there are millions and millions terrorizing the road on a daily basis....

quote Geesh BN Boomer, who stuck the pole up your a$$?

Well, I would have to say folks like yourself. I come here to learn more about to maintain, repair, and modify my Fiero and get treated to ignorant threads such as this. So who shoved a pole up your ass about SUVs? Did one beat you up in elementary school or something?

quote Why do you even own a Fiero? All I hear you do is talk about how you need so much money to keep it running and what not.

I originally bought a Fiero because the 87 coupe I found was cheap and, after some time spent under the hood, made an okay economical work car. After that one was wrecked, I realized I had been sort of bitten by the bug and found a pretty nice 85 GT that needed a new engine after all of 115,000 miles. They can be fun little cars, but I certainly have no delusions that overshadow the car's basic inherent drawbacks, which include being particularly, or in some cases to the point of even unacceptably, unreliable (even a quick perusal of the Technical Forum will confirm that), not that great handling (especially in rain and snow), and not very practical (especially if you have a home, 3 kids, are into a lot of outdoor activities, etc). For me, the Fiero makes an okay 3rd or 4th car. Already owning a 4WD Suburban, a Sunfire sedan, being pretty mechanically inclined, with a pretty substantial set of tools, and an open garage bay to work on it take most of the impracticality out of owning a Fiero for me. I can't imagine owning any Fiero as an only car to be depended upon or without the knowledge, tools, or facilities to properly maintain and repair it. If that was the situation, it would probably be cheaper to just make the payments on a new SUV than support your local mechanic.

quote Why not just sell it and use the money on one of your yuppy mobiles?

Didn't your mommy ever tell you about making ASS-umptions? Here's my "yuppy mobile"...

Given a choice between this capabilty or what the Fiero has to offer, I'll be taking this, thank you very much. I can't even begin to fathom how much a Fiero would suck during hunting seasons, especially once snow and rain begin to be introduced to the above mild offroad situation. And before you all jump up and start ranting about how "soccer moms" don't do that sort of stuff, well, who really cares? Why do YOU really care how they use their vehicles? As long as someome isn't doing outright, utterly tasteless stuff with their SUV, I don't see what your problem is with them. Driving alone, dropping your kid off at school, picking up a latte, or parking at the mall certainly don't fit the description. Safety doesn't cut it as a reason for you to hypocritically feign "concern" about the "danger" of SUVs, either, because I doubt we'll be seeing a "55 and Stay Alive" sticker on your beloved little Fiero, or hear you extolling the benefits of seat belt laws, or preaching that older, less safe cars should be systematically removed from public roads.

quote Thats funny. This is called a Fiero Forum and your outright bashing the car?

Take it as bashing if you wish. Again, I just have no delusions about the Fiero. I choose to accept the compromises of owning a Fiero, or, more in general, of owning a such a small vehicle that shares the road with a wide variety of other vehicles, a number of which would be much worse to tangle with than an SUV. I would also like to view this forum as accomodating to those of us whose interest and enthusiasm for things automotive extends beyond just the Fiero.

quote I know there has to be a yuppy SUV forum, I mean there are millions and millions terrorizing the road on a daily basis.

Yup, there sure is. You can check it out at SUV Tyme. There is actually a link to this page on the The Ultimate Poseurs Sport Utility Page. As an aside, you might find it interesting that the pages creator and owner, Jay Karolyi, later went on the buy a Toyota 4Runner for himself and when his parents bought a Jeep Cherokee, he didn't try to dissuade them fom doing so. So much for the anti-SUV crusade. Or maybe just another stunning example of hypocracy? Do what I say, not what I do?

And terrorizing? Please. What kind of weenie are you? Resorting to emotional statements like that only serves to further undermine any credibility your argument may have had in the first place (as if it did anyway).

(Edited to fix a link. I keep getting HTML and UBB mixed up, dammit )

[This message has been edited by BN Boomer (edited 12-12-2000).]

LOL!!

I see those sucker moms taking the Lexus RX300 off road all the time. I mean, we just can't stop them from tearing up the lawns!

OK, so you addressed the issue of your bashing the Fiero. However, you didn't bash the Fiero's impracticality, you said it wasn't even a sports car or a collectible. The collectible one is highly debated and most people take the "we'll see" stance (like I have), but you seem to have totally written it off as a sports car or a collectible or even WORTH owning unless you have 3 other cars to back it up. FYI, the Fiero is my only car, and I get by fine. I don't have a big garage (barely a driveway), I don't have many tools (basic craftsman set) and I get by just fine. I have found that the fiero is an unreliable car because of its P/O(s), which goes for any car. My car has been MUCH more reliable then my brothers Honda Accord, I bought my Fiero from the 2nd owner who babied the car, the Honda has had 4 owners since my brother. The Honda also has half the miles of my Fiero.

But anyway, back to SUV's....

As I said before, it might be different where you guys live, but around me its like this...

EXAMPLE 1 - 5 foot nothing, 100 and nothing woman behind the wheel of an Excursion. I am waiting at the light in the far left lane to turn, she is in the right lane to turn (2 turn lanes) directly next to me. So we get the green arrow and I start to go. She turns also, I stay even with my lane, she swings around and rubs my right front bumper. Does she stop? Nope. I had to follow her for 30 minutes to the shopping mall only for her to say she never even saw my car, she just thought she hit a bump. This was in my yellow formula.

EXAMPLE 2 - My sister has a CRX HF (45 mpg). She is driving on a 3 lane highway in the far left lane. Some guy in a Tahoe comes off the exit ramp and merges onto the highway. Then he switches lanes, no problem. Now he is riding almost directly next to the rex. Next thing you know, my sister sees his blinker go on and he starts to move in her lane. She goes onto the shoulder crossing rumble strips. Luckily she managed to beep her horn long enough and he saw her, so he moved over. Apparently he thought it was funny because he was laughing when she drove by. What if a Cop had someone pulled over, or an abondoned vehicle was there...

Another reason I hate SUV's is just the basic love of affordable sports cars. SUV's are responsible for many many good sports cars deaths. It would be one thing if people actually needed them, but they don't. I have seen that personally in 2 different cases. Ever hear of the Camaro or the Firebird? Or the Supra? MR2? Say goodbye to them, thank SUVs for that. But I suppose you couldn't care less....

DJRice, way to hurt me! You had to use your a/c yest. I had to use my windshield scraper, defroster, and snow shovel!

Back to the topic, I don't suppose now would be a good time to ask what type of spark plug is best in an SUV...

quote I see those sucker moms taking the Lexus RX300 off road all the time. I mean, we just can't stop them from tearing up the lawns!

Please go back and reread my previous post. Or maybe just read it at all as most of it has seemingly escaped your grasp. Are you suggesting that NEED and actual APPLICATION be determining factors in DICTATING what vehicle one may ALLOWED to own? Whether you like it or not, that is exactly where your arguments are leading. I'm curious how many of us really NEED vehicles capable of exceeding 85-90mph on public roads?

As far as the reliabilty of the Fiero goes, I don't think that even a casual observer would say that it is too great. My Suburban has over 20,000 more miles than my Fiero, gets used much harsher, and still kicks the crap out of the Fiero reliabity-wise. If the Suburban didn't get the fuel economy that it does, there would be absolutely no contest between the two.

In EXAMPLE 1, are you including the driver's physical characteristecs to suggest that petite women should be allowed to operate vehicles over a certain size? Why was that information important to your example? And what if she had been driving, say, a Volvo station wagon? Would you have just shrugged off the incident because she wasn't driving an SUV? Exactly what is your point? That the vehicle should be faulted before the driver?

In EXAMPLE 2, if the guy had been driving a late model Chevrolet Caprice sedan instead of a Tahoe, would your sister have gone ahead and allowed him to collide with her Honda? What does his driving an SUV have anything to do with his inattention? Would driving a car have made the theoretical stalled car or police officer on the shoulder somehow disappear or would your sister have struck them regardless of what the offending driver was driving? Again, exactly what is you point? Did the Tahoe make him do it? Do SUVs possess some sort of mythical power that siezes control of their occupants?

Since we now get to toss out extreme examples, here are a couple of mine.

EXAMPLE 1: Last summer, a Boeing employee was leaving work one morning when he had an epileptic seizure just as he was entering northbound I-5 near the Everett Mall. During his seizure, he mashed the accelerator of his late model Corvette all the way to the floor, causing him to shoot across all 4 northbound lanes of of I-5, jump a small embankment, crash through the guardrail into the south bound lanes, and impact a Geo Metro. The driver of the Corvette was killed and the driver of the Metro miraculously survived even though his car was virtually unreconizable.

EXAMPLE 2: While on my home from work early one morning just a couple of weeks ago, I happened across a severe automobile accident that had closed 3 of the 4 lanes of I-5 that lead into Everett, WA. There was a red Nissan 300Z all smashed up and upside down. I later found out that the guy in the Z had been speeding excessively, lost control, struck a full size pickup truck that subsequently crashed through a guardrail and plunged down a steep embankment, and the Z itself went into a barrel roll. Amazingly, no one was killed in the wreck, although the driver of the Z-car was critically injured and probably remains in Harborview Hospital where he was airlifted to.

Now, based on those two incidents, should I hate sports cars or consider them a nuisance or outright danger to me? These accidents were clearly caused by supposedly "superior" and "safer" vehicles that offer "greater accident avoidance handling". Should greater restriction be placed on who may or may not be allowed to own and operate such vehicles?

As far as your bemoaning the "loss" of affordable sports cars, 3 of the 4 you listed are still available and even affordable by most standards. So what's your gripe? If anything, you should be thanking SUV drivers for buying vehicles with huge profit margins that keep the unprofitable sports car lines alive. And it's been that way for quite some time. How could GM have ever financed something like the Fiero in the first place were it not for other, duller types of vehicles that you now sneer at?

And frontal lobe, I can't speak for all SUVs, but my Suburban isn't too picky about spark plugs, apparently unlike the rather finnicky Fieros.

[This message has been edited by BN Boomer (edited 12-12-2000).]

Well Guess what happened to me on the way to work this morning?

I was cut off buy a Ford explorer,with a woman driver. She was weaving in and out of traffic. She pulled into a space between me and the car in front of me, that was less than length of her SUV. I had to slam on my brakes to keep from hitting her.

She must have been late for her soccer mom meeting!

Hey Boomer
its IMO not worth the fight, people here are pertty biased about anything big, rice, and champion spark plugs.

Most vehicles bigger than the fireo will try and take advantage on the road, but do we notice and complain when an neon, volvo, or minivan does somthing stupid. Usually not.
But we do notice when an SUV does somthing stupid. Why, because they are big and we notice big things and being in little cars we assume that big things can hurt us.

In the end it doesnt matter what you drive its how you drive. take the 'soccer mom' we all loath and put her in a firefly and then the firefly becomes an accident waiting to happen. So why not ***** about lousy drivers and not SUV's. and on your way home from work today watch for all bad drivers wheather there in a SUV or not.

just my .02 cents

That was my point exactly when I said that the real problem is having "A loose nut behind the wheel."

Example: Last Christmas I took my Mom, Aunt, and Cousin on a shopping trip because my mom had had hip replacement surgery earlier in the year and although she could walk at that time, she wanted to use her wheelchair because of the holiday crowds. We had just finished lunch and I was loading her wheelchair in the trunk of the car when the moron in the parking spot exactly opposite the spot we were in backed into me and pinched me between my moms car and his. I dropped the wheelchair in the trunk and started hollaring and beating on the back of the guys car until he moved forward and freed my legs. I wasnt hurt, just a little stirred up, and a whole lot pissed off. The guy was driving a Saturn SC2. I am 6'3" so he must not even have looked in his mirror. Thank goodness for flexible bumper covers.

Any idiot in any kind of car can cause big problems. Until cars have auto navigation and driving systems, we will continue to have these problems with inconsiderate/dangerous drivers.

My vote is to develop a Star Trek Style transporter system so we could go anywhere we want in a flash. Low emissions, and if you "hit" someone else you just end up with 4 arms and one leg or something.

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Dillon
Black '87 SE V6
"You mean like the back seat of a Volkswagen?"

I thought my point was implied in those 2 examples, but I guess not.

My point was that people in SUV's often times feel they are Kings of the road. Its the David vs. Goliath mentality. I also left out a Fiero related SUV accident, occured when a woman in a Ford Explorer switched lanes into a nice Fiero GT, taking off the mirror and damaging the door panel.
I think that the mentality of "I am King of the road" makes these people laxly switch lanes, don't even look when they do, just use their mirrors and go. Most SUVs are big enough that they do have blind spots, you can't just use your mirrors. Its common human psychology, are you going to feel more powerful in a go-kart, or an M1 tank? Especially for shorter people, I.E. where the 5 foot nothing woman comes in. I guess to be "politically correct" I should have said 5 foot nothing "person", I tend to stray away from that dimention of American society (political correctness - that is just in case you missed the point on that one)

Look, I'm not flaming or bashing or anything like that. The bottom line is, I find that people in SUVs often times feel they rule the road, often like big rigs used to until the cops started to crack down on that. Subsequently, I don't think that SUVs are "necessary" for more then half the people that buy them. I think they buy them for the same reason why people wear certain clothes and talk certain ways. Thats JUST AN OPINION so don't go flaming me for it.

I think the guy in a Z28 would be safer then the mom in the Excursion talking on the cell phone (high stress conversation) while 4 rug rats are carrying on the in back. You can only assume the guy in the Z28 is going to drive bad on the sole fact that he has a fast car. You can think of many reasons why the woman would drive bad in the SUV.

Thats it I am done with this thread.

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Jeff
'88 GT t-top 3.4
Baltimore, MD

Oh gee this is getting funnier by the post...

Well, BNBoomer I think we all see your point, at least I do. You own an "SUV" and use it for all things it was intended to do, that is perfectly fine.

To be honest, I haven't seen too many pictures of suburbans "actually" in the great wilderness. You get kudos for that one.

I think the point here was to flame those who buy SUV's for the status symbol appeal and without having any intentions of driving their SUV off road. I know, I'm beating a dead horse.

Well, Jeff, I left out a Fiero related accident, too. How many of us have seen the pictures of the guy from Michigan who lost control of his Fiero, spun sideways, and was impacted broadside by a pickup truck traveling at 50 some mph? Why should I suffer the undo consequences of such a mistake on someone else's part?

By the way, since you continually dodge the question, what difference does it make whether the vehicle that switched lanes into the Fiero in your story was a Ford Explorer, a Toyota Camry, or even another Fiero for God's sake? Would you just ignore the damage if it wasn't done by an SUV? You continue to imply that driving a SUV leads to some sort of psychological superiority complex or is somehow much more difficult than a typical sedan or station. Such just ain't the case, pal. If you actually do believe that nonsense, then you would have no choice but to also have to accept that people who choose to drive smaller vehicles, IE Fieros, would correspondingly suffer from the opposite psychological disorder, IE inferiority complex. On second thought, maybe you're on to something here....

It's laughable to suggest that SUV buyers are the only segment who do so for image. I would bet money that a far higher percentage of high end sports car buyers do so for the exact same image. Next time you see a Ferrari, pay some attention to how much the driver is watching everyone else to see who is looking at him. Fact is, most of us factor appearance in somewhere when selecting an automobile. Nothing wrong with that.

Tigger, so why single out SUV drivers to flame? What about sports car owners who bought one without the slightest inention of ever visiting a race track or wringing any more performance out of it than they would a Geo Prism? What's the difference?

ok boomer, you still miss the point completly.

what I am saying, and what he is saying, are almost the same thing.. Like he said, that people who drive SUV's get that kindof King of the Road feel, and they dont even have to worry about getting in a wreck, because they wont get hurt. In that state of mind, I think said person would be much more liable to CAUSE an accident rather than be the victim of one.

Second, WHY ARE YOU WORRYING about getting in wrecks? YOU DRIVE A FREAKIN TANK.

If i drove an SUV, which i probably never will, i would agree totally with this thread. because i dont have a biased opinion.

open minded.

think about it....

Third, the reason i posted this thread, was not to bash SUV owners, but to tell people what i thought, and to get some INTELLIGENT conversaton going.

but with people like BNboomer around, it just gets turned to mud slinging and name calling.. NO ONE WAS FLAMING.

MR. BOOMER, we EVEN AGREED with you. because you actually put your freakin tank to good use.

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Vietnow --
1986 Celica GTS

I think that the point that Black88gt and others who described a crash was that a lot of the pople who buy SUVs for the status symbol, do not take into consideration the fact that the vehicle is taller than most other cars and that creates more blind spots. Same thing with semi trucks, you have to physically move your head (you know, make some effort) and atleast look at your mirrors to see any other cars. Where as in a Fiero, you are so low to the ground that you can't help but not see all the other cars.

The statement with pickups being in the same boat as SUVs about the visability problems is not entirely true. I have more visability in my truck than any SUV. That is a cold hard fact because a SUV has more pillars that go up from the main body to support the roof and create the unibody on some. Pillars = obscured visability. On a truck, you do not have as many of the pillars to obscure your vision, unless you put a topper (campershell) on it.

Ha, ya know what, I've had enough of this BS. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and they are going to stick by it. Everyone is entitled to drive whatever he/she wishes to. Whether it be a $40,000 SUV or a $3000 Fiero, it is like they say, "Whatever floats your boat." In my case I choose a pickup & Fiero. (currently Fieroless though). Fiero for the sunny cruise/hangout days, truck to do all the work (ie: haul the dirt bikes, dead cars, car parts, furnature, winter, whatever. I very seldom have the need to cary anymore than 2 passengers, if I do, that is what the extended cab is for.

I guess my point is, drive whatever the f*&k you want, and don't let other people try to tell you what to or not to drive. If you want to drive a tank, so be it. But with whatever you do choose to drive, drive it responsibly, please.

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--Jess--

vietnow, the only reason I've completely missed your point is simply because YOU HAVE FAILED TO PRESENT ONE ARE ANYTHING COMPREHENSIBLE THAT EVEN VAGUELY RESEMBLES ONE.

If you can prove this so-called "king of the road" mentality that you ascribe to SUV drivers, then please do so and provide the references. Otherwise, please end your pathetic pop psychology tirades.

Any why shouldn't I be concerned about being involved in an accident regardless of what I drive? Should I not care that any punk can save up a little bit of money, buy some car (maybe even a Fiero), and endanger my family and myself with poor driving ability? What's wrong with chossing a more crashworth vehicle for my family's sake? And just for the record, I operate freight trains that weigh up to 17,000 tons and travel at speeds of up to 60 mph and I STILL worry about getting into a wreck, even with automobiles/trucks at grade crossings. If you think size alone dictates safety, you are in need serious of counseling.

Furthermore, while I realize the reference is mainly symbolic, I highly doubt that anyone here suggesting that SUVs are analguous to tanks has much experience operating either one. Go for a ride in a tank sometime and let me know just how much you would like to experience a significant impact of any sort or even as little as a hard turn at speed. Given your lack of knowledge or insight regarding any other matter so far discussed in this thread, however, it doesn't surprise me that you possess none on this subject, either.

And yes, you most certainly do have a biased opinion and would most certainly be considered close minded in your intolerance of people and vehicles that differ from yourself. Maybe you need to take a closer look in the mirror to see what is actually reflected as opposed to what you wish, at least wish for us, to see reflected.

And apparently, your "unbiasedness" and "open mindedness" defines "INTELLIGENT conversation" as only that which agrees with you. You might want to check with Webster next time, BEFORE you start tossing about terms the defintions of which you clearly do not understand. If you truly want to have an intelligent dialogue, why don't you go back and successfully rebut the points and counterpoints I have previously put forth rather than continue on with your peculiar brand of pointless drivel.

jlhuber, I have to respectfully disagree with the first portion of your post. You cannot claim that SUVs suffer from limited outward visability because of the pillars and at the same time suggest that in Fiero you have much better visability. I find the sail panels on my Fiero create enormous blind spots, much moreso than ANY SUV I have driven. And I also find it much more distracting and difficult to turn my head far enough around in the Fiero to properly check for other nehicles when turning or changing lanes. As far as the SUV vs pickup context in which you presented your opinion, most pickups I see also have canopies, which drastically obscure and restrict outward visability. There really is no contest, in my opinion. And given that the anti-SUV'rs most popular suggested replacement for the SUV is a minivan, with similar visability characteristics, I really don't see how much this factor would come into play. I doubt there would be much difference between getting sideswiped by a Dodge Caravan or a Toyota 4Runner.

Man, I love getting in my Dodge Durango R/T and blasting through town just daring anyone to get in my way, lest they get run over. Gas mileage, who cares. I know I can get anywhere, whenever I want. When I get to feeling guilty about all the gas I'm guzzling, I jump in my 4 cyl. Fiero for a few days and then I feel all better.
Flame suit on.
TL

Boomer, if you had any maturity no matter what age you are you would understand my point.

This is simple

ANY punk behind the wheel of any car can cause damage. lets say a kid in a sports car comes flying around the corner head on to a minivan with a family in it. at 30mph.

consider the damage.

Now relpace that punks sports car with an SUV. and consider the damage.

Which do you think would cause more damage?

I dont care about your SUV or how you drive. But im simply stated that SUV's can cause much more damage in a wreck at any speed.

Prove me wrong.

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Vietnow --
1986 Celica GTS

Here are my two rides. I bought my 1999 Ford Explorer 4X4 in Alaska. Yes, it snows. Being military, I never know where I will be stationed next. I chose the SUV for my families safety. I don't believe my Taurus would have made it out of Alaska. The Alcan Highway is the roughest stretch of highway in North America.

I'm not going to start up on which type vehicle any one should own. I've probably been run off the road by as many SUV's as I have sports cars.

And, yes my 5'5" 120lb wife drives the Explorer. She is one of the most cautious drivers I've seen to date. So if we must start the flame wars, please lets be a little more curtious on who we bash. My little "monkeys" stay buckled in their seats.

(Mrs.GKozlov now) There have been many times when I've been driving to work where someone has run ME off the road in MY EXPLORER because THEY weren't paying attention. Don't judge all SUV owners by the vehicle they drive. Judge them by their driving skills. I'm a more curtious driver than my husband is. That I guarantee. To date I have only recieved 1 ticket, a fix it ticket. There are a lot more reckless people on the road than SUV drivers, for example, motorcyclist. If you want, flame them. They are more likely to cause you an accident from their driving habits. I'm not trying to piss anyone off here. Just trying to add my two cents like everyone else. Whereas some people here are getting very sensitive I'm at least trying to look at it from everyone's point of view.

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GKozlovs Fiero Site

Hey Boomer,
I was not trying to compare the obscured vision of a SUV with that of a Fiero, though that is how most people probably read it. I was trying to point out the height difference between them. A SUV is higher in the air so it takes effort to see the *smaller* cars like the Fiero. Whereas in the Fiero, you can't help but see all the other cars while hoping they also see you.

Well where I am from, everyone uses tonnaeu (bed) covers instead of camper shells/canopies/toppers.

I agree about the Caravan/4Runner comment. It realy wouldn't make much of a difference which one side-swiped me if I am in a Fiero because I am much smaller than both of those and they are about the same size. Now if you say Caravan/Excursion, that will make a difference, but also has nothing to do with what you are saying.

The point that I tried to make in my post was that I hate dumb/carless drivers. As it happens, the most common thing that I see them driving (where I am from) is SUVs. I know this does not make all SUV owners jack-a$$es, but it is kinda like the BMW yuppie stereotyping deal.

If you have a SUV, that is perfectly fine. If you want an SUV and can afford one, go buy one. Just think about it for a bit before you go buy one "just because the neighbors did" and you have to show them up that you are as good as them. (read: I too can waste as much money as you) Personally, if I were to show off how much money I had (like I will ever have that kind of money), I would go all out and buy an exotic sports car. I would also drive it in the winter because if I had that kind of money I wouldn't care if it got wrecked/rusted, for I could always go buy another. I know that most SUVs don't cost anywhere near what an exotic does, but it was for the sake of the arguement.

Anyways, back to the topic: If you have a use for an SUV, be it saftey for your family/4WD/covered cargo & passenger space/status symbol, go buy one. But it is like I said earlier, with whatever you do drive, please drive it responsably.

That is all I have to say on that.

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--Jess--

[This message has been edited by jlhuber (edited 12-22-2000).]

Originally posted by BNBoomer
I highly doubt that anyone here suggesting that SUVs are analguous to tanks has much experience operating either one. Go for a ride in a tank sometime and let me know just how much you would like to experience a significant impact of any sort or even as little as a hard turn at speed

What was you point here BNBoomer? I've ridden in M1A1s, M88s and quite a few M113 personnel carriers. I'd rather be in one of them in an accident than any car on the road. Yes even you're nice suburban. That is a nice one too

Not flaming, my father has a 2wd Jeep Cherokee. I don't care what people drive as long as they drive it responably.

And it does seem like you're totally bashing the Fiero in a few of your posts.

It doesn't seem to be getting to you that the SUVs have a higher stance that causes more blind spots. Especially when it comes to smaller lower cars. I've been nearly ran off the road by a variety of vehicles. Yes even a Jag in South FL. I don't make pretenses about who drives what.

My wife drives a 97 Pontiac Transport, she's a careful driver that never exceeds the speed limit by more than 5 mph.And she always takes her time switching lanes. She's 5'2". She drives 40 miles one way everyday to work, been doing it for 6 months now without incident. She doesn't like to even ride in my Fiero, she says it's too small.

I agree with everyone that said THAT IT'S BAD DRIVERS NOT THE VEHICLE

Sorry couldn't take anymore

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Jeff

[This message has been edited by 2xsess (edited 12-22-2000).]

how about this prick in his ford explorer that almost hit me today.

I just left my G/f house and im a block away from the street i turn into that goes to my house. Im on the main road with my turn signal on about a block before i turn left onto my street. Theres a SUV thats going to turn left on the same street. He is almost using up my lane that im going to turn into too because he has to use up two lanes to take a left turn. As no cars uproach, i make my left turn, as i turn onto my street, the suv pulls out almost hitting me, and i swerve around him, and i see that he even pulls out further which i have to drive in the parking lane. I guess his SUV was to high for him to see me. I wish my G/f was in the car, because she would have honked for me, couldn't have because i needed to control the car with two hands and possibly giving him the bird. I wasn't driving my bright red fiero, but my moms brown station wagon. Too small to miss?

maybe i should get a suv because maybe people wont pull out in front of me????

Yes i did have the right of way, and the guy had a stop sign. No fault at all on my side.

Just another bad driver with a SUV and my hatred for them just grows.

and women with cellular phones.