A six year old killed by another six year old in Michigan yesterday. One killed, four critically injured in Pennsylvania today.

WHAT THE F#@K IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE!? WHEN IS THIS S#!T GONNA STOP!!!???

Sorry, just venting!

One word...Upbringing. If parents would take the time to teach their kids or spend time with their kids or discipline their kids...Have I made my point?

Exactly. That six-year old had to learn that stuff someplace.
Don't know about the PA thing. I'll suspect we'll find out.

This is why the states might just be a much safer place if more citizens had concealed weapons permits. Somebody could have put this guy down the minute he opened fire. Of course, I think that anyone who applies for a permit should be at least tested on gun safety, and given at least 10 hours of training.

Speaking of upbringing, the kids dad was already in jail when it happened. Funny how that works. Like father, like son.

I'm going with Monkey, and Shiner on this one. Upbringing is getting a lot more lax. I notice it very much with little kids(under 12yrs). They have little or no respect for anyone or anything.
Guns. Yes! We need many more concealed weapons permits. But firearms need to be owned and operated by people who are trained, understand firearms, and are confident with their use(plus these people need to be mentally stable).

Shiner--I'm not giving an opinion to the CW permit thing (I used to have one), but I doubt a grade school teacher was gonna pack heat. Even so, could you shoot a 6 year old? I don't think that I could. I'm not flaming you, just giving my $1.35 worth.

I heard that the kids mother was evicted from her apartment and moved into a crack house. I dunno why that little kid did what he did.

I'm hoping shiner was refering to the guy in PA that went on a shooting spree today ( I agree ) and not the 6 year old???

[This message has been edited by DRH (edited 03-01-2000).]

Kids act upon what they see, learn and hear. They are desensitized to violence. Look at the movies and video games. Killing people is old hat. Now the media, also glorifies the school shooters. Parents don't watch or spend time with their kids. Look at the Columbine killers.They did it so they could become famous. They were building bombs in their garage and the parents didn't even check on them. I personaly don't own any guns. But if I did, I would make sure that my kids couldn't get their hands on them.

Life is precious. People don't respect life any more. This isn't something that happen overnight. We have had 50 years of schools teaching that it's by chance that we are even here. They teach that were a bunch of amino acids that decided to evolve into something else. We kill 3,000 children per day for the sake of convenience. All this just burns my butt. Didn't mean to go back to the evolution post or start a new debate but, IMHO,they are related. Just my .02.

Alot of the lack of disipline has to do with the fact that you can't disipline a kid without fear of being turned in for child abuse. Kids now a days threaten parents with that all the time. You can't touch me or I'll turn you in....you can't spank me...you can't ground me,that's child abuse. The parents have to be able to disipline their children without the fear of getting turned in.

We always had guns in our house when I was a kid. My parents hunted. We were all taught about guns and did not touch them. We even had a huge trunk in the hallway full of all types of ammo but we would never have thought about touching it or playing with it. I personally think the problem is not enough parent contact (sometimes with a good paddling) and no training about guns. Now virtually any moron can get a gun and they usually leave them in a drawer in the bedroom or someplace like that. Too many people -sort of like rats in a cage. OOpps going off the subject.

The Pennsylvania shooting happened because some white guys went to a black mans apartment to fix his door and the black man was enraged becuase there were no black guys. He got out his gone and shot at them and went on shooting at white people. I heard this on the evening news. Bunch of crap isnt it?

Today, I stood in front of my class of second grade kids and tried to explain how important it is that if they know that someone has a weapon at school, that they should tell an adult. Then I remembered that when I was a first grader, I tried to take a knife to school. That was one of the worst beatings I ever got! Looking back, it would be child abuse under today's liberal law system. But, I never again had any thoughts of taking a weapon to school. But then again, I had parents that were not too busy to be parents and realized that children are precious and need a parent's attention. It took almost 30 years to see how lucky I was.
I tried to convince 15 kids that they were safe, but are they? We practice lock-down drills once a month. A school cannot be secured if someone wants in bad enough. This is sad for kids who will never get a chance to be kids. I am going to call my mother now. . .

Don't worry our leaders on going to save us....they gave us the "V" chip right?

What kills me is the NRA's lockste refusal to acknowledge the need for some kind of gun control. A spokesman was quoted as saying that it is purely a parental control issue (in MI) and had nothing to do with legislation. We cannot legislate that people pull their head out of their ass and raise their kids right. We can legislate that gun manufacturers start selling child proof guns. We have childproof lighters, childproof aspirin bottles for cheese sakes! But it isn't feasible to make childproof guns? Hello?
Now as far as this crazy guy in PA, crazy world we live in. I hope they give him the needle.

Frustration seems too simple, but out of three people I know that committed murder they all were frustrated by the inablility to make a difference or even to be noticed. Same symtems as suicides, some use the killing of others to push themselves over the edge, gets them up to where they have to finish it.
Damn this **** is depressing, wish I'd hung with the geeks instead.

NUMBER ONE !!!!! The NRA did not shoot anybody today , yesterday or ever. Lets get that straight. The NRA does nothing but teach gun saftey and responsible ownership and try to hammer into the heads of all the dumb a-s politicians that they need to enforce existing laws...
NUMBER TWO !!!!! Parents need to stop letting the TV raise thier children. When I was a kid my Dad took me hunting and fishing. Let me help him work on cars etc.
My Mom took me to Church , school functions , etc. I didn't have time to watch all the bullsh-t on TV.
NUMBER THREE !!!! Ain't it a bunch of crap that everytime a shooting takes place the Gun-Control idiots sit back with a little gleem in thier eye and drool over the prospect of more inane-useless-unenforcable laws. I truly think that they could give a sh-t about the victems just the advancement of thier own personal political objectives.

LETS START PUNISHING THE CRIMINALS INSTEAD OF SOCIETY AS A WHOLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We cant blame videogames, violent movies or guns. The parents are to blame. There was about 6 school shootings before the big colobin <SP>shooting in colorado, this was last year in 1999. Mostly southern states that had these shootings. There was shootings back in the 80s but not too frequent. Video games, violent movies and hand guns were around for years before this school shootings started. Children of today dont have any respect and are selfish during this period of time. Are we going to blame video games for kids being racist?? In the colorado shootings, one of the shooters pointed a gun at a black girl and shot her saying some racist comment towards her i guess he got that from playing video games or watching a movie, maybe the gun talked to him. I grew up playing video games, i watched horror movies since i was seven with my mother by my side. I respected my mother for the things she gave me. I was also afraid of her when i did something bad, the usual belt. No she didn't beat me only discipline. She talked to me about what was right and what was wrong when i was a child, its wrong that someone touches you, its wrong to say swears, etc.... So it pisses me off that someone will say we blame guns for this. We had guns since this country was born. Why now? Parents will love their kid when they are young but there discipline isn't as strong when there kids are older. Ive been to my friends house and i see what they can do. Mommy buying beer for them, there only 18 for there highschool parties. Anyone watch jenny jones, 14 year old sluts. The parents are saying what am i suppose to do, and you can tell they allow it to go on and they need help in parenting. In conclusion, bad parenting causes shootings, not guns, video games, or movies, it didn't see anything on the news when Rambo came out.

A couple more cents to throw into the pot:

Yes, when I was talking about CW permits, I was refering to the PA shooting.

I play very violent and graphic video games all the time. Do I want to kill people? NO! I once played a game called "Postal" This game was banned just about everywhere but the states. It is absolutly the most violent and disturbing game I have ever seen. You play a postal employee who went nuts, and you basicly just shoot hundreds of civilians and police officers. People would cry "I can't see! oh my god!" while they were lying on the ground and stuff. This game gave me nightmares for a straight week. I was afraid to go to sleep at night, because I knew I would wake up at 2 am in a cold sweat, terrified out of my mind. That game NEVER made me think of killing people in real life.

The NRA is at least a small step forward, but it is run by a bunch of idiots! They pretty much screwed us over during that "Assult Weapons" ban a few years ago.

people look at me like I'm psychotic whenever I mention I'm interested in weapons design.. and most of the time they don't listen long enough to realize I'm talking about STUN weapons.. non-lethal.. they're not perfect, but in most situations it would be sufficient, and not cause any permanent damage. I still think it would be hard to take down a 6 y/o with any weapon, but better to knock them out than to put a hole in them.

I personally don't like guns.. but, I don't think insane gun control laws will work, as chances are the people who are a threat, won't be obeying those laws!!

I was down in Florida in November, and for the most part it was cool. I used to go there a lot when I was younger.. but one night, I just didn't feel safe. Saw some street gangs, and wished the rental car had better locks.. and that my dad would hurry up in whatever store he was in. (some convenience store..)

and I'll say right now, I don't like detroit.. seen some scary things there while driving down south.. a car tried to run us off the road.. guess they didn't like a new lincoln full of white people.. if I'd been driving, I would have stepped on it, screw the speed limit.. but I was about 11 at the time.. strangely enough, it was on my way back through detroit that I saw my fiero Fiero....

Ok, enough rambling for now.. the USA is pretty cool.. best entertainment in the world.. some of the best cars too. (and let's not forget cutest actresses.. hehe..) but there are some serious problems.. violent video games certainly won't help, but they're not the problem either. call me a wimp, but I never liked violent movies or video games.. I play need for speed and solitaire.. and I do like a couple of limp bizkit songs, I've heard some people say that their music incites violence.. guess it doesn't work on me.

sorry for the long rant.

My father had 2 rifles and 1 handgun in the house when I was growing up, and there were 4 kids in my family. We never, and I mean NEVER, thought about touching them. We knew exactly where they were, we knew where the ammo was, but if we had so much as moved
them, all he&& would have broken loose! And you didn't mess with my father. Kids need that fear put into them, and too many parents nowadays have no idea how to discipline! We've all grown up with violence! Dirty Harry movies, the Vietnam War...but that is no excuse! We need to TEACH our children about responsibility, honor and truthfulness!
I have a concealed carry permit and put it to use every time I leave my house. I know how to use my gun accurately and will use it to defend myself or others, if ever that occassion should arise. Hopefully I will never be faced with that circumstance.

Way to go Kel!!! You don't see too many women with CW permits. Don't take this remark as sexist but... I think more women should have permits to carry. If only 10% of women packed, I think we would see rapes go down incredibly low.

Gun safety was just HAMMERED into my head as a child. My uncle Joey blew off his pinky finger (he was an adult at the time) because of a stupid mistake while cleaning guns. I always had that as a VERY real reminder of what happens when you don't take guns DEADLY serious. Personally, I will not let someone give me a gun unless they SHOW me that it is empty, and vice versa.

It doesn't take a gun for kids to kill kids. Without guns they would find something else. Just like the bored american teenagers in Germany. They were lobbing large bricks from a bridge onto the Autobaun! One brick went thru the windshield, hit the Mother in the head and killed her with her kids in the back seat! The newspaper here said they heard a couple of accidents and KEPT DOING IT! What is up with that?!? They are thinking of charging them with murder. Kinda hope they do.

I can't help but see in my mind the gun haters smile everytime something like the events in the last few days happens. (I'm sure they don't, but that is what I invision) They just get more fuel to throw against the people who want to keep their constitutional rights. What if someone wanted to take away their 1st amendment right to speak their mind? I live in Colorado (about 60 miles from Columbine). My daughter wrote a poem the day after the shooting. She was 13 at the time. http://www.homestead.com/wkayl/Columbine.html
About a month ago a classmate of hers brought an unloaded gun to her middle school. He had a disagreement about some cds another kid had borrowed. He lives with his mother and step-dad. His parents pay no attention to him and he has raised himself without any guidence from parents. Aside from no parental involvement any more, I see the governments involvement in our raising our kids as a large problem. If you spank your kid in a grocery store for acting up, you can go to jail. If your teacher touched your kid in school, she loses her job. If you yell at your kid too much at home, your neighbor can call the cops and they take your kid away. There has to be some protection for children of child abuse, but it has gone overboard.
Thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Your daughter wrote a beautiful poem, wkayl. You should be very proud of her.

I fear for my family's saftey, folks. How am I supposed to protect them from this? What is it gonna take to stop this!? How many more innocent people - INNOCENT CHILDREN - have to die before someone figures out how to stop this!!!?

I was raised to respect others. I was raised to respect life, human or otherwise. I was raised to never hate anyone or anything. But I place myself in the shoes of the parents that lost their little girl on Tuesday and I begin to feel so much saddness for the parents and so much anger against the suspect and his family. I want someone to pay ... dearly!

I would give anything in exchange for never having to live with the loss of a child!

Oh, BTW - Fieros rule!!!!!

Shiner,
I agree that more women should carry! I encourage my female friends to come to the range with me and learn how to shoot. They offer handgun use and safety courses there (which I took before I even started). But most of the time, they don't seem too interested. They think it's a man's sport, and are "too afraid" of guns.
What really irritates me, is when a woman (or anyone for that matter) buys a gun with no idea how to use it safely or accurately!!! I was in the local sporting goods store the other week and I heard a woman asking about ammo for her handgun. She said she had a concealed carry permit, but had never used a gun, and was wondering what kind of ammo she should get for it. Now that scares me!!! Why in the world would you get a gun, get a concealed carry permit, and not know how to use it??? It's not suppose to be a fashionable thing to do, it's suppose to be for self defense!!!
I also was taught about SAFETY first. The guys I learned from at the range were always more than willing to help me out and never made me feel as though I didn't belong. In fact, they were glad to see a woman taking as much interest as I did. I've been shooting for about 4 years now, and I practice at the range anywhere from 1-3 times a week. I enjoy it immensely! (can you tell?)

Kel,

I think PART of the reason people get guns without training is TV and Movies make it look too easy. It's a lot harder to actually hit what your aiming at than one would think by watching the cop show of the week.

David.

I just figured out that you were talking about the PA shooting, not the 6 year old one. Sorry.

I wasn't spanked much as a child, but I did get the paddle a few times in school. I was raised by my mother (father flew the coop when I was 7) and I think she did a great job. She paid attention to me and my sister, helped us out with whatever we needed help with, etc. Now, I'll be the 1st to admit that I'm a fairly screwed up individual, but I've never even thought about killing someone. I couldn't even imagine trying to injure somebody. What's my point? I dunno...maybe that an occasional swat on the butt isn't going to hurt anyone. And that a little bit of attention from the parent(s) goes a long way.

Wow Dale, you were sounding a little borderline there! Let me state that I am nuetral on gun ownership. I have never seen the need personally to own a gun and would not want one if it was given to me. But I am not anti-gun. I am also not anti-cigarette lghter or anti aspirin, but I see the purpose of having child-proof features on them. All the fear of God and spankings ain't gonna bring that little girl back. But why should a gun be so easy to operate that a 6 year old kid can pull that trigger and splatter an innocent classmate? What freedom of yours will it take away to have some kind of feature that makes a gun child safe?
Oh, and in addition to those nice little gun safety courses, the NRA sends MILLIONS of dollars lobbying the government to fight anything that is in the Gun MANUFACTURERS interest.
So don't feed me that sh*T, ok?

EDIT- the following post is based on a misunderstanding that was resolved off post. I don't want to come across as belittling the importance of gun safety courses. I am merely pointing out that above all else, the NRA ia a political action group. True,good well meaning people belong to the NRA and I doubt sincerely that any homicidal shooter even belong to the NRA. However, to dispute that the NRA receives substantial funding from gun manufacturers to minimize any fiscal liability is a leap in reasoning. That being said, I love all you people. Please don't shoot.

[This message has been edited by stimpy (edited 03-07-2000).]

stimpy,
Those "nice little gun courses" as you put it, have done worlds of good educating and training people about the responsible and safe handling of a deadly weapon. I wasn't trying to feed you anything. It's something I strongly believe in and I don't consider it sh*T.
I respect your right to feel as you do, so how about respecting mine!

There are a lot of organizations out there that I dont agree with, but they may be necessary to keep a "balance of power". If there was no NRA, the anti gun lobby would have stripped people of their constitutional rights long ago. I may not agree with one or the other, but because they are on opposite ends of the spectrum, there is almost a balance. My kids at school ask me about guns from time to time, and it is a hard subject for me to discuss with them. I have a concealed carry permit and believe in the right to protect myself with what ever means necessary. With the kids, I compare the gun to a hammer. Both are inanimate objects that man created. In the right hands, a hammer can be used to create, in the wrong hands it can destroy and kill. A gun in the right hands can help to provide food for a family, protect them from the evils of the world or provide years of enjoyment. In the wrong hands, it is an instrument of death and destruction. Years ago, kids saw that when it was supper time, the chicken that you were playing with earlier that day is now on the table. The permanence of death held signifigance and kids knew that when something was dead, it doesnt come back in re-runs next month. Today, death means nothing. At Colombine High School, part of one of their courses was nicknamed "death ed." It involved writing your own obituary, picking pallbearers for your funeral and writing essays about how you would die. One kid that had attempted suicide said that she would never gone through with it, but the class gave her the courage because death was glorified and held no permanence. There are no easy answers, but when God was taken out of schools the devil came in and took over.

Alright, I've got my soapbox out.
One)
Our government has been in the business of social engineering for decades. One method is through our tax laws. We used to reward people who were married by allowing them to pay less taxes. If you stay married, you are a more stable element of society, because you have to hold down a job, make house payments, and raise your children. We also gave them a big tax break for owning their own home, which again promoted stability.
Now our government gives you a tax break if you are separated, and penalizes you for being married. Divorce used to be a dirty word when I was growing up. You were a social outcast, and a rarity. Now, its more "normal" than staying married, since its over 50%. It is really easy to bail out of a marriage when things get tough, and it takes a lot of work to hang in there. The tax break for owning your home is still there, but is proportionately much smaller than it was forty years ago.
To make matters worse, we give financial reward for being a single parent by issuing welfare checks and subsidizing housing, and the more children the single parent has, the larger the check.

Two)
There are enough laws on the books right now to control all crime, if the passage of laws was all it took for a perfect world. Think about what you just read. Shooting sprees are a societal problem, not a legal problem. One hundred years ago, nearly every rural home had at least one firearm in it. Yet there were no mass shooting sprees of children in 1900. Our society has radically changed in that time frame. We have to promote honor, discipline, and respect in our kids. Can't do that if your not there.

Stimpy, you're beginning to sound more like Charles Shumer and Fienstein each time you post. You have a zeal for righteousness (as I think we all do)but not according to accurate knowledge.You should be very, VERY thankful that the NRA exists. Without the HRA,you have no 2nd ammendment.With no 2nd ammendment you have no "BILL of Rights". Think about that the next time you bash the NRA.Fortunenately or unfortunenately it is the GUN that keeps us FREE.

A guy breaks into your house. You heard him break a window to get in. As he comes up your stairs, you grab your gun. In the dark, you look for the key for the trigger lock. Darn,where did I hide it from the kids? Oh yea, under my socks in my dresser. Now where is the ammo. Oh yea, top shelf of the hall closet. But it doesn't matter, because buy the time you had found the key for the lock, he had grabbed 1 of your kids and was standing in your bedroom with a gun (that no law in existence or proposed by the president would have prevented him from having) pointed at you and your wife. In his mind he is thinking "I'm glad there are all you law abiding suckers in the world so I don't have to worry about you being able to defend yourself. It makes my job of robbing you that much easier."

I believe that we all need more "GOD" in our homes and less Government. We live in a Goddless society thats very imoral. (prayer in schools , etc.) HOPE seems to have took the "last train to the coast". Say a prayer and then remember that "Big Brother Is Watching You".

I should sick to talkin about kittens and sunny days, although I am sure that would get contriversial.
Kel- You got hit by some unintended shrapnel. Please read my apology and explanation that I emailed to you.
Cobra- Who? OK, I am gonna sound downright commie, but- I really do nt see the relevance of the 2nd amendment in my life. Don't want a gun, don't need a gun, if I had a gun, I probably would have used it o myself during my bleaker days. That being said, I am not cryingfor the disbanding of the NRA! I merely think it is time for Chuck Heston to open his eyes and point the NRA in a direction thatis more constructive.
You gotta admit, it makes it pretty hard to defend easy gun ownership when bank robbers can have running gun battles in the street with automatic weapons. Do I have answers? Hell no, but I can pose some questions.
Dale- Yes we live in a Godless society. I am not happy about it. What do you propose we do?

I notice in all discussions about guns the purely receational (non hunting) topic rarely surfaces. My wife and I(both NRA Certified Instructors) have engaged in competitive pistol shooting for about 30 yrs now. We enjoy our sport and find it just as demanding as any other. Believe me it is not as easy to consistantly hit what you're aiming at as they show on TV. Ever notice that the TV coverage of the Olympics does not even cover the shooting sports? BAN GOLF CLUBS
Bye now

stimpy...I don't know...really wish I did. I do know that banning guns or modifying them for safteys sake isn't the answer. Making people responsible for thier own actions is. The fellow who left the gun on the bed in Mich. needs to be responsible...That little boys dad and mom need to be responsible. That poor little boy don't stand a rats chance in h-ll. I have twelve kids...(all adopted)...I have twenty guns. Never had one little problem. The kids have learned about them from me. The older ones get firearms training from me. I allways keep them locked up.
Now the fellow in PA. needs strung up. He was nothing more than a lazy-worthless-racist. If guns were banned completely this guy still would have cracked and somehowe managed to harm a bunch of people.

Are there any good answers ??? I don't know. I don't feel that taking away my rights as an American will work however.