I'm not here to convert, but this is as off topic as it gets for a Fiero forum. Being a tech kind of guy I certainly have no problem with evolution, but the inflationary period after the big bang appears to be a figment of someone with too much access to a large computer and not enough fresh air.
Does anybody find that the current physics support both God and the universe as we see it? Or not?
I find most people have about as good a knowledge about God as they do about Fiero's. So of course I have great expectations because of that.

Whatever the Bible says is the way it is. No need to even argue about it.

No argument there. The Fiero is america's most fun car to drive, but they end up painted different colors. When I understand that then I'm sure I'll also know why the wagons all get put in a circle when religion is mentioned. Religion is part of life. Just like Fiero's that aren't red, we all fit on the road.
But, why isn't your Fiero red? or why don't evolutionists go to your church? should be neutral questions.
OK I've been cooped up a long time, for so long that I'm coming to you guys for a reality check, my mama warned me there'd be days like this.

Did ya see the one about the genetic engineer who had just successfully cloned a human being announcing to God that he was no longer needed. He then challanged God to a man making contest. God said, ok...we each make our own dirt......................

The bible was simply written by a man. And has been rewritten numerous times. It was written to control people and has done a great job. More people have died in holy wars that anything else.

How does science explain eternity? What was there BEFORE the Big Bang? What caused the Big Bang? Where did all this matter and energy come from?

Not even gonna touch this one.. My beliefs are probably too weird for you guys.

Ok, maybe I'll say a little bit.. but this is it. heh..

I'm a little more in agreement with Tom than the other posts, but not completely. The more I research, the weirder reality gets.

I think there's a lot we, as a species, have forgotten, and many things written in the bible and other ancient texts hint at this knowledge, but it's gotten distorted over time, and now is viewed by some as absolute truth, and by others as complete fiction. I think it's somewhere in the middle.

Actually DarkLord I think you are on the right track.

If a person believes that we are all just a chance assembly of molecules, then it would seem logical that person would have no problem with murder, rape, theft, etc. as long as they got something they wanted and they thought they could get away with it.

okay time to piss people off.

I believe that both God and science coexist.
I probably would believe god created everything in 7 days instead of just earth. He created the entire universe glaxies etc...
I think of it as God written a very complicated computer program and everything that is planned works out. God programs the big bang theory, creates the sun, makes that delicious goo soup that terms into single cell organisms. God knows that through evolution Man will be born and create the fiero and cries when rice cars are created.
God probably knows that if religion coexisted we would probably be burning witches still, such as when it rains we would say god is making it rain instead of evaporation. I believe he made it a scientific world.

I am ify on the bible subject, i havn't read it but i use to go to church and heard the stories and saw the news how one lady wants to ban the bible because of the stories in it. I heard theres beastiality and all these goodies, cutting your hair is a sin. The catholic religion has been around for a long time so it couldn't be invented and people couldn't be doing it as say so. People have written the bible and should we have an update just like our constitution because we have evolved as a society?
I believe that jesus isn't white, because he was born in the continent of Africa, so he probably has an arabian color. Jesus wasnt born on xmas but sometime in may. I do believe god exists but different then what the catholic religion says eventhough im catholic. Does god want us to go to church and worship him, or does he want us to live our life because we never know if we die in a car wreck or sickness. I go to college and i get the people that ask you to join their bible class, i say im gay or something, but it seems its like a cult for these people forcing you to join their group and because of that you will live a better person.
ignore grammer mistakes.

DRH, to a person who doesn't believe in an "afterlife", that might make sense. However, I do believe there are consequences for your actions, but not in the way that is commonly taught. My beliefs are my own, and not of any religion. I try to avoid discussing stuff like this usually.

Overall, I think reality is much more complicated that most people imagine.. and I think most people only begin to understand it when they "die". I partially agree with both viewpoints, but I admit there are a lot of questions I cannot answer, and probably won't be able to answer. It's like a recursive loop, one which most people break out of by deciding on a single answer which they hold to. Whether this answer is that god created the universe, end of story or there is no god, science explains everything, is irrelevant. I do not believe either of those statements.

I'm gonna shut up now before I make anyone mad..

Monkeyman I agree with you to 100%.
I do belive in my version of the "big bank theory" God said it and BANG, there it was.
Take a look at this site it's interesting: http://www.drdino.com/FAQ.htm

Hay Rick whats the big bank theory Ilike the sound of that !!!!!

This is reminding me of the conversations me and friends have that go on untill the sun comes up

MY personal take (only MY opinion) on it:
Religion plays on the most important human emotion, which is fear. A lot of people have a very hard time dealing with the thought that you only have one life, so they created "heaven".

I personally belive that human technology and the meaning of life and all that good stuff are coming together. Did you know that they have been able to make a computer go through a near-death expierience? Have you seen the webpage a computer made, which shows that it is creative? This webpage actually made me laugh, and the computer came up with the whole thing! And to quote Issac Asimov "what if our purpose on earth is not to worship god, but to create him?"

I apologize if this seems incredibly disjointed and abstract to you all, but I am REALLY sick with an upper respiratory infection right now, and it show's in my writing, hehe. Oh yeah, don't nobody get all honked up at me, this is MY opinion!

All we have to work with is our rational mind which has boundries, our understanding of anything and everything can only go as far as those boundries allow. The Bible has been edited too many times to count. There are complete books that have been omitted, cause the editors at the time, didn't think the masses could handle the information or not giving it to them, gave the "powers that be" at the time an advantage to control. The book of Enoch is one example that comes to mind. Anybody know anything about the dead sea scrolls? Ever read the Vedic scriptures?...the egyptian book of the dead? Like the Incredible String Band said,"What can't be said, can't be said, and it can't be whistled either!" This thread could go on forever and still be no further than when it started. Bottom line is we all have to live with ourselves in the end. Live your life accordingly. "There are as many paths to God as there are souls of beings, and there is only one way" There will be balance, there has to be. "None of it looks like plan, cause it's ALL plan." Ever see "Altered States"? I think the punch line went something like, "The ultimate truth is.....that there is no ultimate truth" Namastae (means the place that is "pure light" in me pays respect to the place that is "pure light" in you) In other words...babble...babble...babble...babble, etc. Enjoy each day in the world as if it were your last. Do whatever you want as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else doing whatever they want!

The Bible was "written" by many men, but God dictated what to write. It's the absolute truth, 10000%. To quote one of my favorite Christian rock groups, Mercy Rain: "If you don't believe in God, you will." I'm done talking about this now.

I made a choice to believe in the word of God and accept Christ as my savior. Others make a choice not to believe. This was my choice, as was their's. Because I believe in a higher power, I will live my life in ways that those who do not believe may not. If, at the end of our lives I am wrong- big deal. I lived a good life and my faith kept me happy. But if those who do not believe are wrong. . . I would not want to be in their shoes. BTW- Monkeyman, I guess you can see that I agree with you.

Cooter your right..If I'm wrong then oh well, what have I lost? I have gained as a person because I have tried to lead a better life because of it, but if there wrong well...you get the idea.

Cooter,
That is exactly what I was talking about! The "I would rather be safe than sorry" idea. Don't get me wrong, relgion can do good things for people, but millions have been slaughtered over thousands of years in god's name too.

Do you know who said "Kill them all, let God sort them out"?

EVOLUTION IS A HOAX. We are created beings in God's image. Every "missing link" has been proven to be a hoax. Piltdown man, Nebraska man, Peking man, all phony. What bugs me about evolution, is it's portrayed as fact instead of theory. Piltdon man was presented as fact for 40 years, untill it was discovered that it was the head of a man and a jawbone of a baboon. Nebraska man was constructed from a single tooth. THE TOOTH OF AN EXSTINCT PIG. It takes more faith to belive that all of creation happened by chance instead of design. Just look at your hand. What an engineering marvel. Look at the universe, everything is in order. We are just the right distance from the sun to support life. I heard evolution compared to taking all of the componets to construct a house, put them in an airplane,take off, throw it all out the door and it turns into a constructed house once it hit the ground. The Bible is the inspired Word of God. It was written over many centuries, by all types of different people. AND IT STILL WORKS TODAY. I have seen the word religion used on this topic a few times. Jesus hated religion. He fought the religious leaders his whole ministry. He told them that "You are like those tombs over there. All pretty and white on the outside, but inside they are full of dead mens bones" Their religion found them no favor with God. Religion is men trying to find favor with God. God want's us to have a relationship with Him. He made us free moral agent's. We are free to serve Him or reject Him. Everyone knows if they are ready to stand before Him or not. I personally judge no one, I am only responsible for me and my house. Sorry guys, didn't mean to preach and if I offended anyone, my apologies. Just my .02 worth. PEACE

I do believe in god. We all know god is a she. Dont we? And you folks that know the bible real good. Look up Lilith and get back to me.
Darklord sounds like we have a lot in common.

Since evolution contradicts most of the fundamental laws our universe functions on it must be god's way of constantly reminding us that life is a gift. I don't understand at all, but it is a great comfort that I am not alone in that respect.
And I must add, The responses were exceptional! Thank you, and God Bless.

I feel like I'm the minority here, but I've never felt so free as the day that I stopped praying. I was born and raised a Christian, and I never really questioned it. I was more or less brainwashed to THINK that god existed. People always got angry when questions were asked.... I used to wish I was one of those people who could "hear the voice of god", but that day never came no matter how hard I wanted it to. All too often, I see religion being used as a crutch. People commiting "sins" knowing that god will forgive them. The bottom line for me: I refuse to believe in a god that would damn me to hell for not believing in him(it says this very clearly in the bible)... This is the ultimate selfish act, in my opinion. And then there are those who say,"I don't believe in that part of it..." Like people think they can pick and choose what to believe in. You believe it, or you don't. I consider myself a deeply spiritual person, but I don't find my spirituality through a God someone has created for me. It comes from within.

Me talk about religion? Not a chance. I get myself involved in enough controversy at this forum making a little joke about oil changes at Wal-Mart.

GT Bastard,
Don't feel so alone here I am also a very spiritual person, but I do not belive in god. Think about all those children who have cancer, who will never see the age of 18, and who spend their entire lives going through horrible cancer treatments. How does god explain that? Does god love them so much the he gives them cancer?

Wow, this is so wierd to be talking about this on a fiero forum! All the posts on this topic have been VERY intelligent though, and I respect each and every one of you, though our opinions may differ DRASTICLY!

This is definatly one of those topics... I was luthern, got confirmed. Then I sat down and thought about it, and decided that I couldn't believe any of it. None of the western religions make any sense to me, too illogical. From what little I know about the eastern religions I tend to agree with those more, but for now I'll stay an atheist. After all, how can I go to hell if I don't believe in it?

Wanna hear the "voice" of God? Just look outside. God created the sunshine, and the rain (even the snow). Yeah, I know. Snow sucks, but just think if there wasn't any precipitation during the winter. What would you do for water to drink, shower, cook with, etc. For those of you who don't believe in God, I'll feel sorry for you when you die. My elevator's going up, yours won't.

Monkey, don't you think the elevator remark is a little harsh? I mean, it doesn't sound very Christian-like. I've heard the words "I feel sorry for you" on more than one occasion in refrence to my beliefs(or disbeliefs), but in many ways I feel more sorry for the people who tell me that. I could just as easily say something negative in refrence to what you believe, but I won't.

Did you hear about the dyslexic agnostic who suffered from insomnia? He stayed up all night contemplating the meaning of dog.

We all have diffent beliefs. And I have to say this has been to most civil talk about it I have had. And with people from such diverse backgrounds.

Friends,

I would like to make a disclaimer here. First of all I will not touch on the controversy of evolutionism vs. creationism since it has been rather heavily hit on this thread already. Secondly, I am not trying to evangelize any of you, more specifically my intent is not one of conversion. However personally I am a devout Christian and love Jesus Christ my saviour. By my testamony here I am only trying to provide facts that I have discovered along my path to the truth. Also this is an EXTREMELY lengthy thread, if you are not interested in my opinions please feel free to move on. I do feel that I mention some valid points for those of us regardless of where we are in relation to the fence, left, right or otherwise.

Bengal has made one of the best point of the discussion. Organized religion was the vehicle which christ was fighting. I hope to back up this statement by a few different points.

Several references have been made to various Jihads (or Holy Wars), it is important to remember that these wars were not fought by God but by those that were mislead by religious leaders. Let us examine this point further. I agree that the Crusades were an awful time in the history of the world but what we must look at is the broader sense. Christian values are the basis of society in every civilized nation. For those of you that refuse to believe this compare many laws of the state to those of the church. Many are aligned. So for those of you who oppose religion you must admit that it tends to make the world a better to place to live for the most part.

The second point along this line that I would like to make is that organized religion is lead by mortals. Mortals cannot be divine by definition. No mortal can know or understand all things. Does anyone here feel that they are all knowing? Although I consider myself to be fairly well educated, in the whole scheme of things, I am extremely ignorant. I make multitudes of mistakes daily. Furthermore, if you look into the politics of the early church you will realize that way back from Jesus days, religious leaders have lead their disciples astray. This primarily has been due to the association of Church and State. The 7 original chuches are a perfect example of that. Have you ever heard of the Church of Sodom and Gamora? If not, I am sure you are fully aware of what it is famous for. Taking this one step further if you look at the leaders of the early Catholic church, you will realize that often they were very corrupt and were NOT following the will of God.

While these have been some extreme instances, I believe that I have sufficiently illustrated my point that most of the aforementioned problems with God are not with God at all, but rather his vehicle.

Now looking at it from this angle, let us examine other religions. Virtually all major religions believe in some form of a higher power weather they be polythestic or monothestic. Making this assumption let us assume that all religions basicly worship the same principle of a higher being or beings. Most religions then base their beliefs on directives from that higher power that create essentially a code of conduct for their daily living.

So why then are there so many religions? There were many polytheistic beliefs in place long before Christ walked the earth. Hinduism is a good example. If one were to research Hinduism they would discover that no one knows the true origins of the religion. Most theories concur that it was a set of beliefs or tales that were passed down from generation to generation. As the culture developed around these tales it took them to be truths and began living according to them. Human nature is one of seeing is believing. There are MANY references in the Bible to Jesus' own desciples not believing in him until he would perform a "miracle". Therefore it is easy to understand why the world has so many religions. They were already deep seeded and without seeing first hand, it is easy to understand that one would not convert. In general other religions are good for the world as well since they all develop their own code of conducts on which governments are based upon. Without some form of rule the world would be an awful place to live.

Many opponents of Christianity site that a truly loving God would not condemn anyone to eternal damnation. I do not know the origins of this disbelief, but it most likely came over from Europe and has really proliferated here in North America. There is virtually no reference to a "loving God" in the Bible. Jesus was an example of what God was willing to sacrifice for us and therefore was an example of his love. Throughout the Christianity most believers have remained "God Fearing". This is where I refer them to the fact that throughout creation God has "started over" several times. In the days before the Great Flood, God had populated the Earth. When he saw his product become corrupt he decided to choose a representative and start over with the people. He unmerciliously killed virtually all inhabitants of his world. Many more examples can be found throughout the new and old testaments where forces armed with God obliterated their foes and sustained no injuries.

Addressing the topic of death and more specifically terminally ill children and loved ones, one must understand that every near death experience is explained in a similar manner. Much of this is pure hype, but I am certain that dying is much easier on those going through the act than those left behind. Examining this further, we see that the act of mourning is one of pure selfishness. Regardless if we are believers or non-believers it is easy to understand that life is easier once the eartly life is gone. There are 3 iterations that I will site here:

1) If you are Christian and you go to Heaven, then life obviously not only goes on but is filled with bilss.
2) If you are not Christian but believe in an afterlife most iterations that I have heard have been of a good existance elsewhere.
3) If you beileve that an earthly death is only an end and nothing more, then your troubles still cease upon your death.

Therefore it is apparent that our berievement is a lamenting for OUR loss not the loss of the one who has passed. We wish that WE could have said or done something to that person before they left this earth. Either way the suffering that we call life is over. Realize that many who are taken from us at a young age suffer for a few years often terrible pain. The way that I think of this is that they are doing their life's worth of suffering in a rather condensed period. After all without pain, by what measurement would one measure pleasure?

Lastly, I would like to touch on GT Bastards response. GT I am not picking on you (or at least not trying to... ) but what Monkey is the way that Christianity dictates. In Jesus own words [paraphrase] "It is better to believe in something than to not believe at all". God has no sympathy for those that actively choose to reject him. This is enforced by the fact that most "aethiests" when confronted by an unsurmountable problem ask for "God's or another Dieties" help. This is the definition of being used. I cannot imagine that you would be to repectful to another that has rejected you in every way when they ask you for a favor. Furthermore it is important to realize that Monkeyman's response is well doccumented in the Bible, there is not much room for interpretation. Your reaction suggests to me that you really do believe in the concepts of Christianity, otherwise it would not have bothered you so.

An important illustration to remember though is that all that accept Christ are the same in God's eyes. This was exemplified for those of us believers in the story of Christ being crusified between two criminals. While one continued in his ways and mocked Jesus, the other acknowledged him for what he truly was. This simple act changed the outcome drastically for the second criminal. He was subsequently sent to heaven along with Jesus.

My final point that I would like to make is that there are plenty of problems with organized religion. I have a lot of personal issues with this topic. I do not however feel that these illustrate problems with religion. There is a key difference there. To those opponents of God, I suggest that at least for yourselves you determine what you are opposed to religion or organized religion. The single most intelligent person that I have ever known was a young man of Chinese descent. He was culturally an aethiest. However, unlike most he was interested in the Bible in that he wanted to better understand what he didn't believe in so that he could fully understand what he did believe in. I encourage more of you to do the same. As with any project, do your research and come up with your own thoughts on the subject. DO NOT ALLOW ANYONE TO FORCE FEED YOU INFORMATION STATING THAT THEIR WAY IS THE BE ALL END ALL. After researching the Bible, I feel that its illustrations are representations of actual events. That is not to say that I like Monkeyman believe that the Bible is 1 bazillion % accurate. I am convinced that during the first translation into English that much was translated poorly. This differences primarily pertain to implied meanings given by Greek or Hebrew words that do not have direct translations and therefore cannot as easily display the hidden truths.

O.K. Have, I said enough? I think so. If anyone would like to question me off the forum please feel free to do so, but do not expect a debate from me. As some have found out in the past, I simply provide my personal facts and opinions. I do not enjoy forcing them on others nor do I enjoy having others opinions forced upon me and therefore try to keep out of debate type situations.

William T. Thorn, III

These men have expressed my feelings far better than I ever could, so I will leave you this:

"I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse. "

Issac Asimov

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear and punishment and hope of reward after death. It is therefore easy to see why the Churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees."

Albert Einstein

"Which is it, is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's? "

Friedrich Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by Shiner (edited 02-08-2000).]

I,like William, have a relationship with Jesus Christ. He saved me from a life of substance abuse, 8 years ago. He gives my life, meaning and purpose and direction. I have never heard God's voice audibly but I hear it in my spirit. His Holy Spirit is the voice that tells you right from wrong. I belive that he talks to us all, but sometimes our hearts are too hard to listen.

The God that I serve, does not sit up in Heaven and says, you live and this person dies. This child gets cancer and these people will starve. These things are in our world because of SIN. When God created the universe, He did not mean for these things to happen. He did, however, love us enough to give us a choice to love Him or reject Him. When Adam and Eve, disobeyed God, thats when sin entered the human family. We are all born with this sin nature. Sin is defined as rebellion against God.

As for hell. God did not make hell for the human family. It was created for Lucifer and the angels that rebelled with him. God does not send anyone to hell. We send ourselves there if we reject His gift of salvation.

I am going to close with this thought. God Almighty, took on the persona of man, was beaten, hung on a cross to die and rose again so that we might have eternal life. I don't claim to have all of the answers but I challenge any of you that don't believe, seek Him out. Check out his Word. Jesus claimed to be God Almighty in the flesh. Either Jesus is who He says He is, or He is a liar. Seek Him and you will find Him. I know that if I asked everyone on the Forum if they know who Christ is, they will answer yes. I not only know who He is, but I have met Him and I will never be the same.

Feel free to e-mail if you have any questions and I will share some more. I also have enjoyed discussing this with no flames. You guys are awesome. PEACE

Bill

"God does not play dice with the universe"
Albert Einstein.
Depends on when he was asked, he was appalled at human suffering but the beauty of physics showed him God without the shadowing of man's anguish. The church fears science for no reason, science always supports God.

[This message has been edited by Phaeton (edited 02-09-2000).]

I commend William and others on their intelligent responses. Although I don't agree with some things that have been said, I'd rather this didn't turn into and argument. But let me just say a few more things to while I'm typing... One thing I DO agree with however, is being educated on religion(ei. the bible.) Just so you know, I HAVE actually read a good portion of the bible, and even though I can't say I believe it, I think it has many good things to offer in the way of moral perspectives and such. But I must also challenge those who are devoted to god to read the works of someone like Fredrick Nietzche. Not because I think it will turn you into a non-believer, but because I think everyone should see "both sides of the story." Once again, thanks for the civilized discussion. On any other forum I've been to, this would have been a heated flame-war by now. Peace everyone...

GT Bastard-Some of us just don't think that there ARE 2 sides to this story. I, for one, know absolutely that I am right and everyone else with a contrary opinion is wrong. I'm not trying to flame anyone. I think you guys are great and are entitled to your opinion. This is mine. I've never actually seen God in the flesh, but I see his miracles every day. I just happen to know the outcome of not believing in Jesus Christ. When I mentioned the "elevator" thing earlier, I wasn't trying to to flame then, either, but I was dead serious. I don't get irreversible opinions about much (if in doubt, see all of my different opinions scattered about regarding stereos), but my opinion is forever etched in stone about this. I won't argue with anyone, but I will pray about it.

Man oh man, is it getting difficult to keep my mouth shut...

phaeton, I did a search and found the article below. It mentions (explains???) the "inflationary period" you refered to in your original post. I see what you mean. The "singularity" idea seems pretty far-fetched to me also. Is this really the latest and greatest thinking of our scientific community? The mention of the 4 forces of nature reminds me of when people thought everything was made up of earth, wind and fire (or some such nonsense).

I really don't see how this is any more credible than a theory that a "higher being" put the whole thing in motion. Just my .02

http://members.tripod.com/~ssscott/BigBang.html

Monkey.... If don't agree with me, the least you can do is refrain from saying "I'm right and you're wrong." In fact, it's that sort of mentality that made me shy away from religion to begin with. I'm trying to keep the discussion on friendly grounds here, but it's not working out as well as I'd hoped. I have so much so say, but I don't want to be responsible for feeding the flames myself. Perhaps we need a different perspective.

Monkeyman.. No hard feelings, ok? I don't want Pennocks forum to end up like Camaroz28.com and thirdgen.org.