The guys at carputing (ls1/ls2/lsx edit) Say that the reluctor wheel determines if what throttle body the computer is programed to operate. The 24x reluctor is used in conjuction with a cable operated TB, and a 58x reluctor is used with a motor driven TB. With this particular engine i'll have to use a cable driven throttle body. That info is kinda releaving cause the way it was looking , i was gonna have to use the motor driven TB. I wanted to stay away from that because of all the associated components . I'm trying to keep the cost down/ spend the money on the good parts. I've been toying with the idea of carbing this motor. With this new info on my reluctor wheel ,24x, I might just do a F I engine . . . . who knows . I was able to get a double roller for an LS2 so that is one less thing i have to worry about. Well hang tight more to come.
------------------ HARDCORE SBC CRONIE AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?
got some more things done. Removed the oil pump , timing gear and chain , and the cam. Everything came apart really easy which is cool. Well here are the pics.
You can see in the last two pics the towers for the DoD lifters. You'll also notice that there is a small bump in the lifter area that is inline with the oil tower. That bump is the bump that prevents the lifter retainer from being installed wrong. It'll have to be removed to use the LS1 retainers. Well there is a little more teardown and this sucker can be off to the machine shop !
------------------ HARDCORE SBC CRONIE AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?
[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 03-14-2007).]
Ok i got my lifter retainers today and i was pleasantly suprised with them. The retainers have 2 notches in them ! THIS MEANS THERE IS NO NEED TO GRIND THE BUMPS FROM THE LIFTER AREA ! The part # on the retainers is 12595365 . You should be able to go to any GM dealer and pick them up, if you go this route. These retainers are for the standard LS roller lifter. I got mine off of ebay with lifters for 129 bucks new !
Here are some pics of the the intake manifold and the oil pressure sender. This sender will probably cause some interferance with a differant intake unless it is modified to clear.
You can make clearance by grinding down the sender boss and pluging the hole. Then you can drill and tap ahole (red arrow) and stick a fitting there that the oil press. sender can screw into.
------------------ HARDCORE SBC CRONIE AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?
Well it's official the pressure seder will have to be relocated to use an LS1/LS6 manifold. The neck of the LS1 manifold is much larger than the LS4's and it hits the sender. If the sender is milled down the manifold will fit. I'll take it to work tomorrow and grind it down and get some more pics. Here are some pics with the LS1 intake.
Ok folks , i made some headway today but just as i clear one hurdle another one pops up. With the sender boss cut down,and a small piece of the manifold, the manifold will now clear the boss. Now the DOD connector is hitting the bottom of the manifold. i'll have the pull the manifold apart and do some surgery on the connector , splice in some longer wires and move the connecter out from under the manifold. It shouldn't be too hard to do. I'm trying to keep the DoD funtional for the LS1tech guys, but for a Non-DOD build this will be an easy fix.
The cut down boss
The DOD connector interferance
------------------ HARDCORE SBC CRONIE AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?
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10:30 PM
Apr 11th, 2007
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
Not really any updates but some more stuff i learned. This is if your deleteing DOD. The early model LS4 '05 with the 24 tooth reluctor can be operated with an LS1's computer. Using the LS1's computer will allow you to use a better intake manifold and use a cable actuatted TB. For the later model LS4 '06-present can use the LS2 computer which you can use LS6 intakes and you'll probably have to use the drive by wire TB. I haven't done to much searching on the LS2 engines and computers so i'm not sure if they all use the D.B.W. throttle bodies. If you want to keep the DOD function but want a better flowing intake your probably gonna have no choice other than go with the edelbrock victor jr manifold for FI aplications . http://store.summitracing.c...img=edl-29085_w.jpg. You'll have to make an adapter plate to mount your TB and possibly some decklid modifications for clearance. The LS1 manifold just will not clear the DOD valley cover without massive modifications. You'll have to figure out what year your motor is and what reluctor it has before you can start planning . You'll need to know what way you can go before you buy parts because getting the wrong sh!t SUCKS ! LOL I'll do a build thread when i start working on it this summer stay tuned for that.
------------------ REMEMBER KIDS 4.9's ARE NOT SBC's
[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 05-13-2007).]
I have an F40 6-spd that I would like to mate to the Ls4. Will a manual flywheel from any Ls engine bolt up to the crank and will the stock Ls4 starter work with the manual flywheel? Thanks. John
I have an F40 6-spd that I would like to mate to the Ls4. Will a manual flywheel from any Ls engine bolt up to the crank and will the stock Ls4 starter work with the manual flywheel? Thanks. John
Mounting a manual trans is gonna take some work. Mainly the starter issue. The starter for the LS4 is actually mounted to the transmissions bellhousing and not the engine itself. Any LS flywheel should bolt to the LS4's crank . there is not a whole lot of extra material to mount a starter to the engine so you might have to get really creative.
------------------ REMEMBER KIDS 4.9's ARE NOT SBC's
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10:10 AM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
All LS1, LS2 & LS6 Flywheels use a 163 tooth ring gear.
I think you'll find that the LS4 uses a smaller ring gear on it's Flexplate.
So the stick shift F/W's from the LS1, LS2 & LS6 engines will need the starter pinion to be moved farther away from the C-Line of the crankshaft then what the LS4 currently has.
As you know, the FWD automatic transmission has part of the trans case running up alongside the engine block & the 163 tooth ring gear will not clear that part of the transmission case.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 04-13-2007).]
All LS1, LS2 & LS6 Flywheels use a 163 tooth ring gear.
I think you'll find that the LS4 uses a smaller ring gear on it's Flexplate.
So the stick shift F/W's from the LS1, LS2 & LS6 engines will need the starter pinion to be moved farther away from the C-Line of the crankshaft then what the LS4 currently has.
As you know, the FWD automatic transmission has part of the trans case running up alongside the engine block & the 163 tooth ring gear will not clear that part of the transmission case.
Archie
Yeah thats true i totally didn't think about that.
------------------ REMEMBER KIDS 4.9's ARE NOT SBC's
Thanks for all the information you have posted about the LS4 and what you have found out. I have been researching the LS4 alot myself and have learned alot about it between reading and asking questions. I am leaning torward doing this swap but will keep the LS4 intake/DBW TB for now along with keeping it stock for a bit. Its good to hear the LS6 intake will work on the LS4 being I do believe the TB is larger. Have been talking to a company about doing the wiring and PCM work to make the electronics side of the swap work. Been waiting for a good deal on a motor/trans together with all ACC to get started and might have found it but waiting to here back from the seller.
Why would a motor with only 5 miles on it have sludge and black oil in the oil pan? Not trying to be a smart ass just curious as to what would cause this.
------------------ My best advice when it comes to your Fiero is to "NOT" do any dealings with www.kitcarman.com
. . . .. I am leaning torward doing this swap but will keep the LS4 intake/DBW TB for now along with keeping it stock for a bit. Its good to hear the LS6 intake will work on the LS4 being I do believe the TB is larger. . . . .
The LS6 manifold will only work (until i figure out a way to clear everything) if you remove the DOD valley cover and replace it with a flat piece of metal (not sure if the LS6's/ls2 valley cover will work). That means you'll have to get rid of the DOD function. I was working on getting the LS1 manifold to work but am haveing a major issue with the DOD connector. So far i've had to cut the connector down and expose the metal circuts molded in the plastic. The intake just sits to low . I'm still gonna see if i can get it to work. The guys on LS1tech wanted a option on intakes as well but since they run power steering their chances are slim and none with a LS1 intake. If someone wants to pony up the dough and have a sheetmetal intake fabbed it would be a piece of cake. I'm still plugging away at the LS1/6 intake w/DOD but it's looking kinda dismal.
quote
Originally posted by JimmyS: Why would a motor with only 5 miles on it have sludge and black oil in the oil pan? Not trying to be a smart ass just curious as to what would cause this.
Like Jake said the only thing i can see it being from is a generous dose of assembley lube and it being a new engine with oil from the factory. ------------------ REMEMBER KIDS 4.9's ARE NOT SBC's
[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 04-13-2007).]
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10:46 PM
May 7th, 2007
Madess Member
Posts: 2040 From: Cincinnati, OH Registered: Feb 2004
so what are difference in sizes between the ls1 and ls4? wouldnt it be easier to just do an LS1 swap or does the water pump stick out pretty far as well on that?
The LS4 doesn't require an adapter plate. LS4 = 5.3 , LS1 =5.7 . From what i have been told from a guy that does ALOT of resleaving is that the 5.3 liners have the same outer diameter as the LS1 liners. The inner diameter is less and can be bored out to equall the LS1's bore. The LS4's waterpump and housing can be bolted to the front of any LS motor . The nice thing about the LS4's water pump housing is that it moves it off the the left side of the engine to make the overall length of the motor shorter.
One thing if doing a carbed setup like me ,you will have to use the LS2's timing cover. The LS4 and LS2 covers are differant in the fact that the CAM pos. sensors are 180*s out. The timing components are the same though. I guess the LS4 programing is differant in the regards to when the cam phase signal (i guess thats what its called) is sent. I'll try to stop by the GM dealer and see how much that is gonna cost . stay tuned more to come once some other business is taken care of.
Here are some pics of the the intake manifold and the oil pressure sender. This sender will probably cause some interferance with a differant intake unless it is modified to clear.
You can make clearance by grinding down the sender boss and pluging the hole. Then you can drill and tap ahole (red arrow) and stick a fitting there that the oil press. sender can screw into.
What does it look like under the valley pan? On my LS6 block, the oil pressure sensor screws right into the block and the valley pan goes around it. Go here for a pic: http://public.fotki.com/8ba..._fiero/misc_076.html I'm going to do a 90 degree bend out of the block and use a soft line for a remote oil pressure sensor. I can get pics of the valley pan if you need them.
What does it look like under the valley pan? On my LS6 block, the oil pressure sensor screws right into the block and the valley pan goes around it. Go here for a pic: http://public.fotki.com/8ba..._fiero/misc_076.html I'm going to do a 90 degree bend out of the block and use a soft line for a remote oil pressure sensor. I can get pics of the valley pan if you need them.
-Chuck Fiero in pieces.
Hey chuck the valley on the LS4 block is pretty much an open area where the sensor (assuming cam position sensor) is located on the LS6 block. If one were to use the LS6 valley cover it would leave an open hole. You could thread the oil passegeway and mount a 90* and relocate the oil pressure sender. I have some fairley thick T-6 Aluminum available at work and i can make a cover to suit my needs. I can loose install my intake and the dod valley cover to see if it will fit without any interferance. It should. I also stopped by the GM dealer today and ordered the timing cover from an 05 pontiac GTO with the 6.0 (LS2) motor. The price wasn't as bad as i thought it would be. The timing cover was $118.12 p/n 12600325. I also ordered the Cam position sensor as to it being differant too. It was $70.92 p/n 12585545. I'll get pics to compare the differances when the parts come in.
I just took a few pics of the manifold and valley cover. They fit with no interferance. The runners are nice and smooth and match the head port design perfectly.
I'll have to get a pic of the runner-to-head mis-match, or lack thereof .
Really tight, but good! I guess both the LS4 and LS6 have their good and bad point when putting them in a Fiero. I had to grind my block some to clear the starter/adapter plate.....
Ok picked up the timing cover today and was pleasantly suprised. The cover also included the cam sensor ,gasket,front main seal and new hardware, all for $ 118.12. So now i have to go back and cancel the C.P.S. and get 70 bucks back. Ok here are some pics.
The LS2 cover is on the left in all the pics and LS4 on the right. The LS2 cover is a little deeper and will stick out just a little bit more than the LS4's cover. There might be an interferance problem with the LS4's water pump housing . I think the housing might hit the C.P.S. on the LS2 cover. This will not be an issue if your using the LS4's fuel managment to run the motor. Since i'm using the carbed setup i have to make an LS2 out of the LS4 , minus the displacement of course .
From what i have been told from a guy that does ALOT of resleaving is that the 5.3 liners have the same outer diameter as the LS1 liners. The inner diameter is less and can be bored out to equall the LS1's bore.
Ok, I'll be the irresponsible one here. Since the LS4 is so similar to the LS2 and it has enough room to bore it out to a 5.7L...well what is the difference in outer diameter between the LS1 and LS2? Because if I getting 400 cubic inches is a practical option I probably wouldn't stop at 350. “In for a penny; in for a pound”, right?
Hey Toaster_man since the intake and ignition box i am using works with LS1 . I had called MSD to find out some specifics on their ignition control box. MSD makes 2 differant boxes. One for a 24 tooth reluctor and one for a 58 tooth reluctor. Since my engine has a 24 tooth reluctor (changed to 58 for 06 and later LS4 so im told) i went with that box. I also learned that the LS2 has the cam pick-up on the front of the motor , Like the LS4, and MSD makes a extension for use on the LS2. Well i didn't know that the LS2 and LS4 cam sensor were located differantly untill i got the harness extention and read the directions. I figured all parts were the same since the LS2 shares a common timing gear set with the LS4. Since they are not the same i had to use the LS2 timing cover to get the cam sensor in the correct position. The LS2 block Has more material machined out of the cylinders to accept the bigger liner. I'm not having mine resleeved im having the sleeve bored out from 96mm(3.779) to the LS1's bore of 99mm(3.897). So all in all with the block bored to 99mm and fitted with 243 casting heads will pretty much make this engine the equivalent of an LS6.
edit to add: Resleeving is EXPENSIVE so boring is gonna be good enough for me. Although a 427 powered fiero does seem like just the right amount of overkill.
------------------ REMEBER KIDS 4.9 ARE NOT SBC's
[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 05-11-2007).]
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08:24 PM
wikid_one Member
Posts: 2838 From: Ocean City, MD Registered: Dec 2003
So ummmm... when can I expect you bring this bad boy down and drop it in my car? First time I actually looked through all the pages. You are making a lot more progress than I expected. I figured the Blazer was taking up all your time
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10:14 PM
Jun 14th, 2007
Madess Member
Posts: 2040 From: Cincinnati, OH Registered: Feb 2004
The LS4 doesn't require an adapter plate. LS4 = 5.3 , LS1 =5.7 . From what i have been told from a guy that does ALOT of resleaving is that the 5.3 liners have the same outer diameter as the LS1 liners. The inner diameter is less and can be bored out to equall the LS1's bore. The LS4's waterpump and housing can be bolted to the front of any LS motor . The nice thing about the LS4's water pump housing is that it moves it off the the left side of the engine to make the overall length of the motor shorter.
One thing if doing a carbed setup like me ,you will have to use the LS2's timing cover. The LS4 and LS2 covers are differant in the fact that the CAM pos. sensors are 180*s out. The timing components are the same though. I guess the LS4 programing is differant in the regards to when the cam phase signal (i guess thats what its called) is sent. I'll try to stop by the GM dealer and see how much that is gonna cost . stay tuned more to come once some other business is taken care of.
So is your LS4 going to fit without moving the transmission or transmission mounts, and thus axles? are you going use a manual or an automatic? if you are going to use a manual, how to plan on overcoming the starter problem?
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11:43 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
If you're going carb'ed, I saw on Hot Rod TV a week or 2 ago them doing a modification on their Old Blue Hair project car. (carb'ed LS2). It involved adding a front timing cover that has provisions for a distributor, so you don't need a programmable distributor controller. It was a front mount distributor with the cap near where the normal LSx throttle body would be.
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02:35 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Madess i'm not sure on the positioning of the motor and trans yet. It's still on the engine stand
Formula88 i purchased the intake manifold and coil driver as a package from edelbrock, so i don't need the distributer and the special timing cover.
Ryan the dod connector connects to 4 solenoids. Each solenoid controls the int. and exh. lifter for the given cylinder. The oil ports are staggered ,2 on the left bank and 2 on the right bank. The DoD cylinders are the 1,4,6,7. here are the oil ports in the lifter valley.
Well as far as a redline , im gonna stick to around 6500-7000. I know the LS motors have turned more but im not super concerned about tons of revs. This motor with the 4t65hd in 3rd gear was pushing 163mph wheels speed @ around 6200rpm. thread is on LS1tech . http://www.ls1tech.com/foru...wthread.php?t=725060 A fiero should be plenty fast with that tranny with a normal redline and rev range.
------------------ ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
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06:52 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Originally posted by FIEROPHREK: Ryan the dod connector connects to 4 solenoids. Each solenoid controls the int. and exh. lifter for the given cylinder. The oil ports are staggered ,2 on the left bank and 2 on the right bank. The DoD cylinders are the 1,4,6,7. here are the oil ports in the lifter valley. ... Well as far as a redline , im gonna stick to around 6500-7000. I know the LS motors have turned more but im not super concerned about tons of revs. This motor with the 4t65hd in 3rd gear was pushing 163mph wheels speed @ around 6200rpm. thread is on LS1tech . http://www.ls1tech.com/foru...wthread.php?t=725060 A fiero should be plenty fast with that tranny with a normal redline and rev range.
Ahh, so they progressively deactivate one by one so you don't feel anything...
You should go for broke and try for 8k. You'd have the equivalent of a high power northstar with a few less pounds. On that note, do you know of anyone on LS1tech with an LS4 that is reving that high or higher?
Most of the guys on LS1tech have done minor mods like rockers and springs, CAI and a tune. There is alot to be gained from a cam swap and exhaust work. The rear exh manifold just isn't getting it done in my book ,but i'm no expert. From what i've read, the dod engages all at once but since the engine is equiped with ETC (drive by wire) it opens the throttle to compensate for the loss of 4 cylinders. 8k might be do-able but i'll need to reasearch what i'll need to turn that reliably.
------------------ ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK
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10:07 AM
Jun 17th, 2007
bluhevn86 Member
Posts: 51 From: Hunstville, Al Registered: Jun 2006
Don't qoute me on this but, a while back on ls1tech I read that a DOD oil pump can suck the oil pan dry without the DOD or if the pump was placed in a non-DOD engine.
Also all LSx motors that I know of are 6 bolt mains and cross bolted, four through the bottom and one through each side of the skirt, it's pretty stout.
Bump ! Not really much to update . Ordered my pistons and they are one the way.Mahle's 10.4:1 cr for the 6.125 rods. Once they get here the block will be taken to the machine shop and will be bored up to 3.898 which is the stock bore for the LS1/LS6. Once thats at the shop i will order my connecting rods . When they are done boring i'll bring it all back and get the rings file fitted to thier respective piston and bore. Then back the shop to drop the rotating assembley off for balancing. Then it will be time to work the heads. I'll get more pics so stay tuned.
I glad to see someone else is working just as slow as I am on the LS4 swap. I havent even touched my LS4 in a month or so unless you count moving it around. Need to get on the ball so it will be atleast close to being finished by the end of the year.
I got a call from summit yesterday and they informed me that the pistons i ordered are still in production. They told me they expect them in 3 to 4 weeks . I pulled the pistons and rods out of the block and was suprised to see how the powdered metal rods are made. Apparently the rod is cast then machined then the main bearing cap is broke off from the rest of the rod. I guess it works though since i've heard the rods are good for like 500hp with nothing more than some ARP rod bolts. I'll get some pics of the rods up in a few for anyone who is interested.
Fierophrek, Just found your posting. Excellent progress on this LS4 project. I'm also having the LS4 swap done, but by Ryan at Sinister Performance. He's already started to capture some of the photos of my engine (2005 Grand Prix GXP w/ TAPShift) on his site. I've been following the LS1tech forum to see what they've accomplished with engine mods, but is seems like most of them are waiting for a cam or aftermarket headers to be fabricated. I've decided to keep the DoD functionality, as well as the TAPshift as I'm also using the 4T65 tranny. So far, Ryan has ported the heads, had the surface areas around the pistons machined, and I've had the tranny rebuilt with a high performance shift kit from Triple Edge Performance. Right now, Ryan was experimenting with a different manifold combination from the LS1 on Camaros as he felt the LS4 is a bit restrictive in terms of air flow. Sounds like you've been experimenting with same thing.
I was going to have Ryan take alot of photos and post them here on Pennocks, but between your project and MustangBeware, it probably doesn't make alot of sense to have 3 projects at the same time. I'll continue to follow your project and as I get progress from Ryan, I'll share here (if you don't mind). Good luck with your project! I'll probably have Ryan check out your postings to see if there's any learning to be shared along the way. Does anyone know if FastFieros has made any progress on his LS4 projects?
Fierophrek, Just found your posting. Excellent progress on this LS4 project. I'm also having the LS4 swap done, but by Ryan at Sinister Performance. He's already started to capture some of the photos of my engine (2005 Grand Prix GXP w/ TAPShift) on his site. I've been following the LS1tech forum to see what they've accomplished with engine mods, but is seems like most of them are waiting for a cam or aftermarket headers to be fabricated. I've decided to keep the DoD functionality, as well as the TAPshift as I'm also using the 4T65 tranny. So far, Ryan has ported the heads, had the surface areas around the pistons machined, and I've had the tranny rebuilt with a high performance shift kit from Triple Edge Performance. Right now, Ryan was experimenting with a different manifold combination from the LS1 on Camaros as he felt the LS4 is a bit restrictive in terms of air flow. Sounds like you've been experimenting with same thing.
I was going to have Ryan take alot of photos and post them here on Pennocks, but between your project and MustangBeware, it probably doesn't make alot of sense to have 3 projects at the same time. I'll continue to follow your project and as I get progress from Ryan, I'll share here (if you don't mind). Good luck with your project! I'll probably have Ryan check out your postings to see if there's any learning to be shared along the way. Does anyone know if FastFieros has made any progress on his LS4 projects?
Go ahead and start a new Thread with pictures and what direction you are taking your swap in. Seems like all 3 of us are going in diffferant directions with our swaps so it would be nice to have 3 differant Threads showing them. I myself need to start a Thread with pictures and what my plans are with the swap and what future plans are with it. I am leaning torward not using the DOD fuction/tapshift function and keeping the stock exhuast setup for now. Of course my mind changes all the time and I might decide to keep the DOD/tap shift funtion but not forsure yet. Maybe with a build Thread and others interested in it, it will make me get off my azz and start working on it more. Will start a build Thread once I get back home and get more pitures of my setup.
!
. I'm still gonna see if i can get it to work. The guys on LS1tech wanted a option on intakes as well but since they run power steering their chances are slim and none with a LS1 intake. If someone wants to pony up the dough and have a sheetmetal intake fabbed it would be a piece of cake. I'm still plugging away at the LS1/6 intake w/DOD but it's looking kinda dismal.
. stay tuned more to come once some other business is taken care of. 
On that note, do you know of anyone on LS1tech with an LS4 that is reving that high or higher? 
