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More questions on the 4.9 swap...Lets see those pics :) by Xerces_Blackthorne
Started on: 05-01-2009 11:02 AM
Replies: 57
Last post by: Fieroseverywhere on 05-27-2010 10:25 AM
Xerces_Blackthorne
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Report this Post05-05-2009 05:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Xerces_BlackthorneClick Here to Email Xerces_BlackthorneSend a Private Message to Xerces_BlackthorneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

As someone who is looking towards doing a 4.9L swap this summer, I would advise to do a good amount of research before mixing model years and PCMs. What we often find is that one year of engine doesn't always use the same sensors, alternator connectors, and other hardware so just your homework before you get into it. I know of a guy who tried to rebuild a 4.9L and it ended up in the scrap heap. He just put an impact wrench on the head bolts to remove them and stripped the threads out of the aluminum block but even if you do rebuild successsfully, you'll end up with a very expensive swap. I would use a sound engine as is with an improved ignition ( MSD) , full flow exhaust, and enjoy the strong low end launch and the great gas mileage. If you are going good, you might be able to do this swap for under $2000 w the auto and less for the stick. Expect to do some belt re-routing, add a new tensioner, and be prepared to build some brackets to relocate the alternator. According to Ed Parks; axles from an Olds Sillouette with the 3800 should drop right in to an auto swap.



Dennis, I'd love to come out and help you out with the swap if you end up doing it, so I can get a feel for what I am getting into with mine My plan is to get a good starting platform, slap new seals in it where need be, replace the water pump, alternator, ignition parts, and reuse as much of my current exhaust as I can (I have a flowtech dual outlet from summit with Rodney's cat running 2.5" pipe all the way back)

From what I understand about this swap, its one of (if not the easiest) swaps to do beyond a straight stock swap.

Send me a PM if you are interested and let me know

-Brian
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sanderson
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Report this Post05-05-2009 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sandersonClick Here to Email sandersonSend a Private Message to sandersonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

According to Ed Parks; axles from an Olds Sillouette with the 3800 should drop right in to an auto swap.



Not quite

Left side needs a 1989 Pontiac 6000 with light duty brakes
Right side is an early 90's minivan (like a Silouette) with 3800 with Fiero manual CV joint swapped on to the outer end
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DanFiero
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Report this Post05-05-2009 08:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DanFieroClick Here to Email DanFieroSend a Private Message to DanFieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sanderson:
Left side needs a 1989 Pontiac 6000 with light duty brakes


What side of the 6000 does the axle need to be? And is this a direct replacement or does the outside need to be changed to a fiero end?

Thanks, I blew the boot on mine and need to replace it (originally bought from Ed parks).

Dan

[This message has been edited by DanFiero (edited 05-05-2009).]

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sanderson
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Report this Post05-05-2009 10:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sandersonClick Here to Email sandersonSend a Private Message to sandersonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DanFiero:


What side of the 6000 does the axle need to be? And is this a direct replacement or does the outside need to be changed to a fiero end?

Thanks, I blew the boot on mine and need to replace it (originally bought from Ed parks).

Dan



Left side

But you can a replacement boot for your old axle for ~$50 less.

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Frizlefrak
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Report this Post05-05-2009 10:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FrizlefrakClick Here to Email FrizlefrakSend a Private Message to FrizlefrakDirect Link to This Post
OK guys....on this axle thing...Here's what I used. It's 3 years and 4000 miles later on the swap, and all is well. Anyone is welcome to come and drive it if they like...

LH Axle... 1993 Oldsmobile Silhouette. Autozone part # 026838 - 9571
RH Axle... 1993 Oldsmobile Silhouette. Autozone part # 026839 - 9572

Change the OUTER ends for those from stock Fiero axle ends from a MANUAL transmission car. Simple to do, takes 5 minutes per axle. Your new axles will bolt right up just like they were made for the car.

http ://www.autozone.com/aut...goryNValue=11299999&

I don't know what else will work....but I do know that this combo WILL work.

[This message has been edited by Frizlefrak (edited 05-05-2009).]

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Xerces_Blackthorne
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Report this Post05-05-2009 10:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Xerces_BlackthorneClick Here to Email Xerces_BlackthorneSend a Private Message to Xerces_BlackthorneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Frizlefrak:

OK guys....on this axle thing...Here's what I used. It's 3 years and 4000 miles later on the swap, and all is well. Anyone is welcome to come and drive it if they like...

LH Axle... 1993 Oldsmobile Silhouette. Autozone part # 026838 - 9571
RH Axle... 1993 Oldsmobile Silhouette. Autozone part # 026839 - 9572

Change the OUTER ends for those from stock Fiero axle ends from a MANUAL transmission car. Simple to do, takes 5 minutes per axle. Your new axles will bolt right up just like they were made for the car.

http ://www.autozone.com/aut...goryNValue=11299999& fromWhere=&itemId=prod10799&displayName=CV+Halfshaft&searchText=cv+axle&_requestid=130710



This is one of the things that has been bothering me, the axle debate. Now that this is cleared up and I know what exactly works, I will be ordering these ones here My other option that I can look into is getting custom axles made. It may be cheaper. There is a place in Reading called Hartman Drive Shaft that does axle rebuilding and such...I think they said its $75 for each axle...More info HERE on them. May help others out with different swaps in the future

Thanks Frizle, plus to you

Now, where can I get the Fiero manual trans outer axle ends? Can I buy them new anywhere?

-Brian

[This message has been edited by Xerces_Blackthorne (edited 05-05-2009).]

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Frizlefrak
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Report this Post05-05-2009 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FrizlefrakClick Here to Email FrizlefrakSend a Private Message to FrizlefrakDirect Link to This Post
When we did Jeff88's 4.9 swap, he had an old Ed Parks kit (same one with the large idler pulley). We got curious as to what axle Ed used, in case it ever needed to be replaced. Jeff gave Ed a call, and the Silhouette info was what Ed gave us. We used that combo on the second swap (my 88). This one was homebuilt, as Ed had stopped selling the kits at this point (2006). The axle combo worked perfectly.

Hope this helps.

ps....Brian, you might give Ed Parks a call and see if he has any good used manual axles laying around. If not, post a WTB in the mall and check eBay for them. All you need is the outer end and a pair of slip ring pliers to change them. Then pick up a new boot clamp kit at any auto parts store, and you're set.

[This message has been edited by Frizlefrak (edited 05-05-2009).]

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Xerces_Blackthorne
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Report this Post05-05-2009 11:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Xerces_BlackthorneClick Here to Email Xerces_BlackthorneSend a Private Message to Xerces_BlackthorneDirect Link to This Post
Just to be clear, the outer ends must be from the Fiero manual trans, I know that. But which manual trans? The 4 speed Muncie? 5 speed Izzy? 5 speed Getrag? Does it matter at all?
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thismanyfieros
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Report this Post05-05-2009 11:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thismanyfierosClick Here to Email thismanyfierosSend a Private Message to thismanyfierosDirect Link to This Post
all fiero manual axles are the same..4 spd and 5 spd...
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Report this Post05-06-2009 09:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sandersonClick Here to Email sandersonSend a Private Message to sandersonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Frizlefrak:

OK guys....on this axle thing...Here's what I used. It's 3 years and 4000 miles later on the swap, and all is well. Anyone is welcome to come and drive it if they like...

LH Axle... 1993 Oldsmobile Silhouette. Autozone part # 026838 - 9571
RH Axle... 1993 Oldsmobile Silhouette. Autozone part # 026839 - 9572

Change the OUTER ends for those from stock Fiero axle ends from a MANUAL transmission car. Simple to do, takes 5 minutes per axle. Your new axles will bolt right up just like they were made for the car.

[URL=http://www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/parts/partsShelf.jsp?
categoryDisplayName=Drivetrain&fromType=parts&fromString=search&parentId=cat10001¤tPage=1&filterByKeyWord=cv+axle&isSearchByPartNumber=false&navValue=11200512&categoryNValue=11299999&]http ://www.autozone.com/aut...goryNValue=11299999&[/URL]

I don't know what else will work....but I do know that this combo WILL work.




You're making this harder than it needs to be.

If you use a left hand axle from an '89 Pontiac 6000 with light duty brakes it drops right in. No need to swap a Fiero manual CV joint onto it.
Should have also said the Pontiac 6000 besides light duty brakes needs to come from a 4T60 (4 speed auto) transmission

Rockcrawl uses the Pontiac 6000 axle as have several people here on the forum

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 05-06-2009).]

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Xerces_Blackthorne
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Report this Post05-09-2009 10:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Xerces_BlackthorneClick Here to Email Xerces_BlackthorneSend a Private Message to Xerces_BlackthorneDirect Link to This Post
Just out of curiousity, do I need to upgrade my fuel pump with this swap as well? Is there a Walbro pump out there that works with the Fiero? I would imagine I need to put a higher flow pump on for it to run properly, it makes sense. But I'm not sure... Whats everyone using?
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Report this Post05-09-2009 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DanFieroClick Here to Email DanFieroSend a Private Message to DanFieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne:

Just out of curiousity, do I need to upgrade my fuel pump with this swap as well? Is there a Walbro pump out there that works with the Fiero? I would imagine I need to put a higher flow pump on for it to run properly, it makes sense. But I'm not sure... Whats everyone using?


I'm using a stock Fiero pump i.e. it wasn't changed and my swap runs fine.

Dan
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Xerces_Blackthorne
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Report this Post05-09-2009 11:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Xerces_BlackthorneClick Here to Email Xerces_BlackthorneSend a Private Message to Xerces_BlackthorneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DanFiero:


I'm using a stock Fiero pump i.e. it wasn't changed and my swap runs fine.

Dan


4 or 6 cyl pump? Only curious because I am doing this swap on an 88 with the duke...
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Report this Post05-09-2009 11:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DanFieroClick Here to Email DanFieroSend a Private Message to DanFieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne:


4 or 6 cyl pump? Only curious because I am doing this swap on an 88 with the duke...


6 cyl.
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Report this Post05-26-2010 11:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxCubesClick Here to Email MaxCubesSend a Private Message to MaxCubesDirect Link to This Post
From my expirience the best "mod" one can do for the 4.9 is to toss to stock throttle body and intake and find and install one from a Cadillac Allante... I noticed a big improvement in the 2500-4500 rpm range, burnouts are easier and longer, and my quarter mile time decreased by almost a full second !!....



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Report this Post05-27-2010 12:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxCubesClick Here to Email MaxCubesSend a Private Message to MaxCubesDirect Link to This Post
I also believe doing the five speed versus the automatic is also a worthwhile "mod" to increase performance

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Report this Post05-27-2010 12:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxCubesClick Here to Email MaxCubesSend a Private Message to MaxCubesDirect Link to This Post
The Allante also has other great "performance" parts to help the 4.9....

The valve springs on the Allante have a higher seat pressure... what this means is that you can rev the engine to higher rpms without valve float which causes loss of performance and possible damage.

The rocker arm bracket on the Allante is made of iron instead of aluminum... obviously this is better for higher revs... espescially with the higher pressure valve springs.



..... and while you are at it.... you may want to get the Allante gear reduction starter... smaller,lighter, and cranks better.... a must with any fiero transmission so that you don't have to cut out a hole in the transmission to clear the big 4.9 starter.

[This message has been edited by MaxCubes (edited 05-27-2010).]

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Report this Post05-27-2010 10:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereClick Here to Email FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereDirect Link to This Post
You can infact overbore the cylinder sleeves. Larger pistons are available from summitracing.com. IIRC they are Keith Black silv-o-lite. These are the best way to go as you don't have to change the compression ratio like the Northstar or Quad 4 pistons do. They are available in up to .76mm overbore...
http://www.summitracing.com...Rings/?Ns=Rank%7cAsc
I'm not sure the weight compared to stock pistons so a re-balance of the rotating assembly may be needed. For higher compression builds, such as using Northstar pistons with shaved heads, graphite head gaskets are available. Unfortunately, there are no better intake manifold gaskets available at this time. This remains the weak link in the gasket department and a hinderance for boosted applications.

Rebuilding a 4.9 is not really a difficult thing. The teardown is absolutely crutial though. Any stripped threads in the alluminum block are a PITA to fix. Lots of heat a penatrating lubricant are absolutely necissary. I agree with Mickey Moose on this, for most peoples use its just not worth the time or money to do it. Of course the owner of the engine is the only one who can properly make that decision.

When I did mine I bought a 150k mile junk yard engine. It was the lowest mileage I could find at the time so I decided a rebuild would be a good thing for the longevity I was looking for. Total cost was $204 for engine, PCM, and wiring harness. I spent $355 on premium gaskets, rings, bearings, and an intake valve that needed replaced. There are also oversize bearings if needed. Don't bother with cam bearings. They are line bored after install from the factory and difficult at best to replace. I spent another $180 on the cam that needed replaced. Its cheaper to get a regrind then a factory replacement. Total cost for my rebuilt 4.9... $739. If the cam had been fine it would have been just over $500 total. This is not an expensive engine to rebuild as some would have you believe. I've spent more on 2.8 rebuilds in the past.

Boreing or honing the sleeves is very easy since they are removable. There is no need to take it down to a machine shop to have it done. You can hone them easily with a cordless drill and stone. Overboring is a bit more difficult but still easily possible for the garage mechanic. The gasket kit will come with new o-rings for the cylinder sleeves. Either mark the location of the sleeves or measure their height to the deck when re-installing. They should sit .080 above the deck and be uniform. The 4.9's usually run forever, so unless its needed, I wouldn't bother rebuilding.

Figure out how you want your 4.9 to run and several people here can help you make it happen. I've got a good plan for a performance built 4.9 but I'm not letting it out just yet. My next one will push the limits of what is thought to be possible. It will also be an auto for power holding. I found out roller rockers are much easier then previously thought. I am still working out the details so you guys will just have to be patient...

EDIT: Oops. Just realized this thread is over a year old. Oh well, the info is still good.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 05-27-2010).]

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