I realized that I had not posted any information about my 3800 turbo project here on this board. I only had it on RFT, but I know that not a lot of people go there, so here it is.

After having close to two years on my 3800sc build, I decided I needed more. Running a 12.65 @110mph was nice, but I wanted more. After seeing so many turbo 3800's in the gp and fiero world, I decided that this was the way to go. I was in contact over most of the summer last year with Ryan Gick (Darth Fiero http://www.gmtuners.com ) about a potential build over this winter.

Throughout the summer I had started gathering parts for the build. I picked up a camaro upper and lower intake, some l26 heads, an LT1 MAF, 105lb springs and retainers, a Synapse 40mm wastegate, and a Master Power T61 turbo (Thanks FieroX http://www.ftwmotorsports.net ). I'm sure I gathered some other bits and pieces too.

Since I had time before I would be able to take my Fiero down to Ryan, alot of small mods were done. I ported the upper and lower intakes, the throttle body, and did a mild port job on the heads. I then took the heads over to a friend of mine that works at a speed shop in the area and did an awesome valvejob and some minor bowlwork to the heads. There were also some aesthetics that were done. Another friend of mine is in the powdercoating business and he powdercoated my valvecovers and intake, along with some brackets, and my engine vents. I must say that it's quite awesome having friends in these lines of work! They are all excited to see the finished product.

Here's a few pics of the portwork and powdercoating:

Ported TB:


Ported upper and lower intakes:









Ported heads:
intake:


exhaust:


bowls and valvejob:






complete heads:


Turbo Pic (FieroX did the powdercoating and ceramic coating):



So now on to the fun stuff!

I took my Fiero down to Ryan back at the beginning of Dec to start this project. Along with doing the turbo fabbing, Ryan also took care of a rear-main leak, installed ARP headstuds and new gm headgaskets. I also had a performance transmission built by Dave at http://www.tripleedgeperformance.com to handle to added power. A bigger chain, heavy duty clutches, a performance converter, upgraded input shaft, and a 3.29fd are all part of that build.

So, here are some pics of the current state of the build (as of a few days ago):







Just a few things about the components in the pics. The manifolds are ZZP stainless powerlogs that have been modified to accept V-bands. The Y-pipe is custom built by Ryan and made out of stainless. The downpipe is aluminized steel. The entire exhaust will be wrapped from the headers to the muffler and a turbo blanket will be put over the exhaust housing.

There is still plenty more to this build. Ryan is working on the intake plumbing next and that will be about it. There are a couple more goodies on the way though. I will update this as the work goes on.


------------------
'88 GT- 257rwhp 319rwft/lbs (9/07) 12.657@110.19mph 1/4 mile (8/08)
gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by AkursedX (edited 01-23-2009).]

HOLY CANDY... Freakin sweet.

Looks great! Very professional build

Only one thing to say.....""!

------------------

Wow, that looks awesome!

Thanks for the kind words people. I am really excited to get this thing back and get it on the dyno! This drag racing season is going to be a lot of fun I think. I still have to order my drag radials though. I'm registered for Pinks All Out at Martin, MI, and I hope to attend a couple other larger events this year along with my usual routine of Milan and Lapeer test and tunes.

1/31



The car is nearing completion. The TB and intake tubing aren't hooked up. The custom intercooler is ordered and will hopefully be in by the end of next week. After that, it's a matter of getting a few more small things taken care of and getting a tune on it!

------------------
'88 GT- 257rwhp 319rwft/lbs (9/07) 12.657@110.19mph 1/4 mile (8/08)
gmtuners.com

Looks like a really clean installation. How much boost are you planning to run, and what kind of hp/tq are you shooting for?

quote Originally posted by doublec4: Looks like a really clean installation. How much boost are you planning to run, and what kind of hp/tq are you shooting for?

I don't like quoting hp/tq numbers until I actually have some data to back up my claims. So All I'm going to say is that I hope to make more than what I have in my sig, and 3800 people running the same turbo in a GP setup have made between 380-420whp. Will I make that? I don't know. I probably won't run anything over 17psi, but I don't know what street boost levels will be until things are dialed in and tuned.

------------------
'88 GT- 257rwhp 319rwft/lbs (9/07) 12.657@110.19mph 1/4 mile (8/08)
gmtuners.com

just wondering why u chose that intake style?? advantages??? contemplating a turbo set up and yours looks so damn sweet...very impressive and cant wait to see the final numbers once up and running....tim..

quote Originally posted by thismanyfieros: just wondering why u chose that intake style?? advantages??? contemplating a turbo set up and yours looks so damn sweet...very impressive and cant wait to see the final numbers once up and running....tim..

Well the main reason for choosing this intake is because this is the same setup that darth fiero has. Asides from that, IMO this is the optimal 3800 intake. It's aluminum, and it has a short-runner design to it. The ported blower case also ends up being a short-runner intake, but there's a lot of turbulance due to the air entering a plenum with alot of ridges. It's debatable how much this affects flow. Although, if you want to run a liquid/air intercooler, it would be nice to use this due to the intercoolers already out there. The l36 intake has longer runners than the camaro so you will lose a bit up top (although the HV3 insert helps this), plus it's plastic. The l26 intake is aluminum, but you cannot use the HV3 insert and you still have longer runners.

The big disadvantage to using the intake I'm using is that you can't run a bigger throttle body.

I want to note that all of that is just my opinion and I don't have flow numbers or anything else to back it up so if you disagree, that's fine.

what are the specs on your turbo ?

edit
just saw the T61 compressor... what size and trim turbine are you using ?
looks to be a T04 P trim (?)
and what a/r is it ?



------------------



87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6
Bully Stage 2 clutch
Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner
Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection
50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump
LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system
T31/T04B H3 turbo and a S10 caliper conversion.
Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value
Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure.
Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

[This message has been edited by vortecfiero (edited 01-31-2009).]

quote Originally posted by vortecfiero: what are the specs on your turbo ? edit just saw the T61 compressor... what size and trim turbine are you using ? looks to be a T04 P trim (?) and what a/r is it ?

It's a Master Power T61 P-Trim compressor with a .70 a/r and a T4 turbine with a .68 a/r and a v-band housing

Looks like another one of your slow cars, X. (being sarcastic of course) That thing looks super sweet, you've done an excelent job on it.

quote Originally posted by kyunderdawg: Looks like another one of your slow cars, X. (being sarcastic of course) That thing looks super sweet, you've done an excelent job on it.

Actually it's Darth Fiero (Ryan Gick of www.gmtuners.com) doing the build. I bought the turbo from FieroX (Ryan Cheney of www.ftwmotorsports.com) along with his old 65lb injectors. Just wanted to clarify that. I just like adding everyone's info to my builds.

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: Actually it's Darth Fiero (Ryan Gick of www.gmtuners.com) doing the build. I bought the turbo from FieroX (Ryan Cheney of www.ftwmotorsports.com) along with his old 65lb injectors. Just wanted to clarify that. I just like adding everyone's info to my builds.

I gotcha. I should have typed "AkursedX" instead of "X", just got lazy. I hope I can make my 3.8SC look that good before I put it in.

beautiful color. what is that red called? is it just a powdercoat red?

------------------
First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
My Fiero Fuel Economy
Videos of My GT
Google Videos of My GT
MPG Display for OBD I

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: beautiful color. what is that red called? is it just a powdercoat red?

It's a 2-step candy process. One coat of silver and then a red candy coat applied over it. Most of my parts were done by my friend Ken. He has a site too. http://www.fbkfinishing.biz/main.htm

[This message has been edited by AkursedX (edited 02-01-2009).]

Nice!
Looking forward to seeing that thing in motion

UPDATE:

Well the intercooler came in finally and Ryan sent me some pics of it. Unfortunately we have to wait on a couple more aluminum mandrel bends to get in before everything can be tied together.

Before:


I/C Pics:




Installed:


There will also be an airdam installed along with two 7" puller fans above it so it'll have good airflow and it won't heatsoak while idiling. That's the biggest IC you can fit there if you still want to keep your a/c. Total size is 33x7x3 and it's rated for 650cfm.

[This message has been edited by AkursedX (edited 02-19-2009).]

Is that a greddy core? Looks like the one I had made for my buddies supra, but 1/3 the size.

If its the same core, it will be one hell of an intercooler for the size.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Is that a greddy core? Looks like the one I had made for my buddies supra, but 1/3 the size. If its the same core, it will be one hell of an intercooler for the size.

The core is a custom made piece for Extreme Turbo Systems. It's a bar and plate setup with louvered external fins and offset and staggered internal fins. I know this company is really big in the DSM community and have been making intercoolers for high hp applications for a while.

I was originally going to go with a custom intercooler from Bell Intercoolers, but when the measurements were done and the endtanks were decided, the IC would have been $720. Before I said yes to that, I went and looked through all the other places that I went looking for custom intercoolers and found that ETS made a custom IC that was the EXACT measurements we needed. And it was only $370, plus it flows more CFM than the Bell unit, according to the numbers from each website.

Seems to be the same design as the bar and plate core that I picked out, although it has a slightly different inner structure that makes for higher flow but higher inlet temps at high flow.. It all depends on the size and balance I guess as to if I would have went with that style on such a small intercooler... Either way it should work better than my water/air core if you can get the temp drop you need out of it.

Going to lapeer opening day? A few of my friends are trying to make a day out of it.. I am not so sure I want to go so early.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Seems to be the same design as the bar and plate core that I picked out, although it has a slightly different inner structure that makes for higher flow but higher inlet temps at high flow.. It all depends on the size and balance I guess as to if I would have went with that style on such a small intercooler... Either way it should work better than my water/air core if you can get the temp drop you need out of it. Going to lapeer opening day? A few of my friends are trying to make a day out of it.. I am not so sure I want to go so early.

According to ETS, they found this design to be an optimum balance between flow and efficiency. Personally, I wish it would have a more dense outer structure since I don't have to worry about cooling anything behind it, but oh well. We'll see how it works. I spent a lot of time debating the water/air vs air/air intercooling. I decided to go air/air because no one else has yet, besides Darth Fiero and his i/c isn't exactly optimal. I hope that this will prove that you can run an air/air setup in a high hp application.

I doubt I'll be at Lapeer on opening day. I don't get too many weekends off. But I will be there as early as I can.

Looks great so far. Are you going to get it dyno'd? I believe we're running the same turbo so I'll be looking to see what kinda numbers you're putting down. I'll most likely run between 10-12 psi..nothing too extreme.

quote Personally, I wish it would have a more dense outer structure since I don't have to worry about cooling anything behind it,

That was what I was thinking... We orginally had a old greddy bar and plate core with maybe 40 rows or so, and the new one had 18 rows... but after investigating the deal with intercoolers.. I found that the flow was MUCH more important then the ability for it cool itself. Our core has big bars because they have a very complex "tumbleing" system inside the bars that swirls the air around the alum getting much more transfer to the cold alum. All intercoolers suffer from heat soak of some sort, and intercooler designers are making these massive bar cores knowing that they can just increase the airflow over them a bit or spray them cold.

The complex tumble system killed the flow abilitys of the core.. so they had to make the bars much larger, and sacrifice some of the heat soak resistance...

quote I hope that this will prove that you can run an air/air setup in a high hp application.

The key here is that you can run a very nice street setup with this, but if this IC isnt up to the task of flowing the air you need efficently and not heat soaking, you should be more than fine. Combined with your marginal sized turbo, it will be effective as hell at the 350-400whp area... I just would be a bit worried when you pass that 400whp area, where you are going to be flexing the abilitys of the upper end of your compressor, cam, and exhaust dynamics.

[speculation] I imagine some serious gas or water injection will be required for the 10 second passes.[/speculation]

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 02-19-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Sphynx: Looks great so far. Are you going to get it dyno'd? I believe we're running the same turbo so I'll be looking to see what kinda numbers you're putting down. I'll most likely run between 10-12 psi..nothing too extreme.

I have some friends who work at a performance shop who have a Land & Sea Chassis Dyno. They already know I'm going to be bringing it there as soon as I can. I will probably put some hours in dialing in my tune further once I get it back and then it'll be on to the dyno. This'll probably happen within a couple of weeks of when I pick it up.

I've been watching your build closely as well seeing as we are running the same turbo but going about things in a pretty different way. It'll be interesting to see the results. I will probably be running higher boost though. I'll probably start at 12-13psi and see if I can make it to 17psi.

heh, wusses my spring is set at 16psi right now... boost controller is going on next week ready to rock for 2x. (I am cheating though, i have a stock valvetrain, low compression, and a T3 hot side)

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: The key here is that you can run a very nice street setup with this, but if this IC isnt up to the task of flowing the air you need efficently and not heat soaking, you should be more than fine. Combined with your marginal sized turbo, it will be effective as hell at the 350-400whp area... I just would be a bit worried when you pass that 400whp area, where you are going to be flexing the abilitys of the upper end of your compressor, cam, and exhaust dynamics. [speculation] I imagine some serious gas or water injection will be required for the 10 second passes.[/speculation]

Right now I can only take a wait-and-see approach. I do believe that the intercooler will be the limiting factor though. I never intended for this to be an all-out beast. If that was the case, I would not have a/c and there would be a much bigger intercooler in there right now. I highly doubt I will ever see 10's on this setup for a number of reasons, but I'm ok with that. I think this is where this build is going to end engine-wise. I still have to finish the interior, a new brake setup, and then some small exterior changes.

Hey,
Nice looking build. I might have missed the it somewhere but are you staying with the stock cam/springs/timing chain?? Any plans for an electronic boost controller?

Another quick question, I've been looking into turbo 3800s lately and I'm curious to know if anyone has narrowed the boost levels down to what stock enternals can withstand?? Can the stock bottom end take daily driven 15-20psi? where is the limit as to ___psi is all the 3800 can take before blowing out stock parts?

Thanks

quote Originally posted by Nebiros88: Hey, Nice looking build. I might have missed the it somewhere but are you staying with the stock cam/springs/timing chain?? Any plans for an electronic boost controller? Another quick question, I've been looking into turbo 3800s lately and I'm curious to know if anyone has narrowed the boost levels down to what stock enternals can withstand?? Can the stock bottom end take daily driven 15-20psi? where is the limit as to ___psi is all the 3800 can take before blowing out stock parts? Thanks

New stock timing chain, stock cam, 105lb springs, and 1.84 rockers, with ported heads.

Ryan has something up his sleeve for the boost control, but I'm not sure what. We talked about it in person, but I don't remember.

I don't know how much boost the bottom end can take. The stock internals are quite stout though. Most failures I have seen have been from bad tunes or a lack of fuel. So I don't know how much a stock bottom end can take. I believe ZZP has made 600+whp on a stock bottom end.

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: New stock timing chain, stock cam, 105lb springs, and 1.84 rockers, with ported heads. Ryan has something up his sleeve for the boost control, but I'm not sure what. We talked about it in person, but I don't remember. I don't know how much boost the bottom end can take. The stock internals are quite stout though. Most failures I have seen have been from bad tunes or a lack of fuel. So I don't know how much a stock bottom end can take. I believe ZZP has made 600+whp on a stock bottom end.

834whp on a stock bottom end.

I thought you crammed a cam in.. oh well, we are both in the rocker boat now I guess eh? I still have my stock springs, but I should be swapping out soon.

HEY you stole my firebirds motor

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: 834whp on a stock bottom end. I thought you crammed a cam in.. oh well, we are both in the rocker boat now I guess eh? I still have my stock springs, but I should be swapping out soon.

I wasn't sure if the TTGP was a stock bottom end or not.....I knew Kalo's Impala was. No cam though. I have a spare shortblock that I might build up some day with a cam and some forged pistons, but that's far down my list.

Kalo actually had pistons at one time... I was still under the impression they were still in there when they were saying that it was a stock bottom end....

I think that it was around the time a rod blew up while tuning it.. either they had forged in and blew the rod, or they blew the rod and put in the forged... Tim king just has 8.0:1 pistons and stock everything and made almost 1000whp on 2 GT35r's. His intercooler is the size of a regular sized suitcase.

quote Originally posted by Nebiros88: Hey, Nice looking build. I might have missed the it somewhere but are you staying with the stock cam/springs/timing chain?? Any plans for an electronic boost controller? Another quick question, I've been looking into turbo 3800s lately and I'm curious to know if anyone has narrowed the boost levels down to what stock enternals can withstand?? Can the stock bottom end take daily driven 15-20psi? where is the limit as to ___psi is all the 3800 can take before blowing out stock parts? Thanks

The no.1 limiting factor is the pistons/ring package. Stock pistons have a design flaw (from a performance point of view) where the ring package is placed too close to the top of the piston. This was done on purpose for emissions reasons. GM also used thin/low tension rings. These smaller rings cannot take the heat of hi-power applications like aftermarket parts can. And because they are placed so high up on the piston, this puts them closer to the heat of the combustion event.

When you see guys busting piston ring lands off the stock pistons, this is usually caused by the person trying to run too much boost for the application or running too lean of AFR's. Both of these situations cause higher combustion temps and exposes the upper compression ring to this excessive heat. The factory ring gap is very tight (again for emissions reasons) and this closes as the ring heats up. When the ring expands (due to the exposure to heat) and the gap closes, it can expand no more without breaking the ring land off the piston. And that's usually what happens. This is also the reason why I recommend that people not try to do "top end swaps" or put boost on stock n/a (L36) engines. The L36 engine has an even thinner piston which means it cannot transfer the heat of combustion away from the rings and top of the piston as effeciently as the SC L67 pistons, which are thicker.

Pistons used in these stock L36 and L67 engines are cast aluminum. Cast aluminum pistons do not tolerate detonation well at all. GM put a special heat-reflective coating on SC pistons to help the pistons live longer in a supercharged application. While this helps, it does not change the fact the piston material is cast aluminum. The amount of boost you can safely run on stock pistons/internal parts depends on a lot of factors. Ambient temp, humidity, type of fuel used, air/fuel ratio, charge air temp, camshaft profile, cylinder head port flow rate, and amount of spark timing advance amoung other things all impact the amount of boost you can run on a given set of internal engine parts. The amount of boost I like to run on my Turbocharged Intercooled 3800 Series 2 engine in my Fiero is limited to 12psi on 94 octane pump gas and about 17psi on 110 octane leaded racing gas. I have been running this setup for almost 6 years now and have not had any failures. I don't have the best turbo or intercooler for what I would like to do so I limit the amount of boost I run -- and that's why it has lasted so long I'm sure.

Also you need to keep in mind a bigger turbo will move more air more effeciently at less boost vs. a smaller turbo. This will also impact the amount of boost your engine can tolerate. If anyone where to ask me what I would do the 3800 supercharged bottom end to make it durable for 18-20 psi of boost from a good turbo, I would tell them to get a set of forged pistons and have the engine machined to attain the proper cylinder wall to piston clearance recommended by the piston manufacturer. Then I would use a set of performance piston rings rated to work with boost and filed to attain the proper end gap. Engine cylinder machining is critical when installing new pistons. The piston to cylinder wall clearance must be correct or you will have problems.

-ryan

------------------
5+ years on this same swap -- NO engine or transmission failures...

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

Update 2/28

Got an e-mail from Ryan that she's up and running. I must say that it's nice to hear that "you need to get new tires, first gear is essentially worthless when you get into boost". And I run 245-45-17 Falken Azenis' on the rear! Looks like I'll be running DR's on the street!

Pics will be posted when I get out of work. Hopefully I will have her back soon. I got a lot more work to do!

------------------
'88 GT- 257rwhp 319rwft/lbs (9/07) 12.657@110.19mph 1/4 mile (8/08)
gmtuners.com

Good to hear! I'm sure Im not the first person who will request pictures, videos, etc etc

------------------

Here's the pics.

Topside:









Here's a couple of the intercooler air deflector.

Thats really nice! I hope you bring it around some shows this summer and maybe to the annual London Ontario show. I'd love to hear/see it in person. Good choice on the red colour too, my valve covers are about the same colour.

(btw, kind of off topic, but where did you get your rims... 5zigen's right?)

------------------