I recently bought a v8 Archie swap kit off ebay for a heck of a deal (imo)
It says the kit is for a 350sbc and for the 4-speed fiero muncie.
anyways what engine choices do I have? I'm pretty ignorant in this area so you'll have to bear with me. I definitely don't want to go carbed so I'm looking for more of a modern engine choice. I briefly scoped out the L98 and LT1 and was wondering if there are other options out there? Pros, Cons, other recommendations reliability, etc.

Thanks!

EDIT: Kit is for 1986 and up engines

[This message has been edited by Adam1988 (edited 01-16-2010).]

With the archie kit, you can adapt any traditional sbc. The LT1 can be done, but it's a little more work I think.

You can take any sbc engine and adapt fuel injection, if that's what you want.

IMO, I think a 327 would be a great choice for the fiero due to the short stroke and quick revving capability.

Personally, I would look for a Vortec engine out of a 96+ truck. They're plentiful, relatively cheap, and have lots of potential.

Decide on your budget and fabrication skills first, and choose the engine based on that.

Most of all,
Good Luck!!!!

How much would adapting a fuel injected setup run me? Are there any 327's that came factory with fuel injection?

I wiki'd the vortec engine are you refering to the 4.3L V6?

The V8 versions are only from 99' and up and they would most likely be pretty expensive.

Oh and I have access to mastercam/solidworks/machine shop so I could fab up some parts if need be. Welding not so much..

You have to know what year of SBC your swap kit is for. The flywheel bolt pattern changed in 1986. Measure your bolt pitch circle. Pre 1986 used a 2-piece rear main seal with a bolt circle of 3.58", and the later 1-piece rear main seal is 3.00". That may help you narrow down your engine choices. Of course you can always buy the other flywheel from Archie.

Personally I can't see using a 327 when it is the same physical size and weight of a 350. Why give up HP and torque when 350's are easily found?

Rick

[This message has been edited by couldahadaV8 (edited 01-16-2010).]

only difference in a 327 and a 350 is the stroke. has same size bore.
you could even put a 305 in if you want. has same bolt pattern. just smaller bores and what not.
but if it was my engine.
id get a 350 and rebuild it to a 383 stoker. there are lots of rebuild stroker kits out there that are pretty decent. and not expensive at all.
unless your wanting forged crank and rods and such.
you could get an L98 engine out of a firebird or a camaro. they are an older engine but there fuel injected.

quote Originally posted by Adam1988: It says the kit is for a 350sbc and for the 4-speed fiero muncie.

If you have a kit for a manual transmission you can use any Fiero Manual transmission and some FWD manual transmissions as well. You will also need to know if the flywheel which came with your kit is for a single piece rear mail seal or a split rear main seal. That will affect your choice of engine.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 01-16-2010).]

Since you are staying with a manual (and your kit will work the 5speed manuals as well as the 4 speed) and their ratios are best suited for an engine that can spin past 6K, you should look at building an engine with a power band to match.

If you take that into consideration, the stock TPI setup is not a good match since it starts being a restriction on the 305's about 5K and the 350's about 4500 rpm. Sure you can throw $$ at it until there is nothing stock TPI about it and it will flow better, but for the $$ you are usually better off starting with something else.

The LT1 intake can be used on a traditional SBC with some modifications and flows well past 6K. The Holley Stealth Ram and GMPP Ramjet Intake are also similar and can provide a power band past 6K.

What ever engine you get, spend the majority of you $$$ on a good set of heads. The 96+ vortec heads are a great bang for the buck, but there are better aftermarket aluminum ones.

Sorry, I realize my post was confusing. There isn't a late model Vortec 327. I feel like the 327 is a great choice because it will rev quicker, and you can make great power with them.

What I meant was that the EASIER and CHEAPER route would be the Vortec engine. I've seen used ones complete for under 500. The Vortec heads will support 400 hp with a little work, plus it has a roller cam and fuel injection. Aftermarket fuel injection setups generally run 1000 - 3000.

Really all comes down to budget.

Edited first post, kit is for 86+ SBC's. I'm looking so spend maybe around 1k in an engine and another 1k in misc things.

Now if I get hired by the fire dept i'd have much more money to spend..

And mike the vortec would bolt up to the archie kit?

Also there was an LT1 for sale on craigs for $600, what makes the lt1 more difficult to swap? How much should I consider paying for a TPI or LT1?

Did you just get the economy kit, or did it include the Starter/Oil filter relocation, waterpump, clutch exhaust manifolds/custom exhaust as well? If you didn't get these other items, it is easy to spend another $1000 to 1500 just to get these additional items... the cost of the SBC swap can quickly get out of hand.

The 96+ Vortec 350 in the trucks is a good base and if you look long enough you can find a complete takeout with engine/harness/ecm for under $1000. The engine was rated at about 245hp stock and responds well to upgrades. The downside is the factory intake manifold will quickly become a restriction. Upgrading to a better EFI intake (Ramjet or vortec HSR) or going the carb route will increase the costs depending on what you can buy the needed parts for.

The LT1's can also be had complete with ecm and harness for under $1000 as well. The LT1 will yield more HP in stock form (275 to 300) and also responds well to upgrades. Biggest issue is the camdriven waterpump requires the engine/tranny assy to be shifted to the driver side about 2 3/8", some notching of the frame rails and custom axles are required.

It is much cheaper to go with a 4.3 CPI (92-95) or 96+ Vortec and you can get about 190 to 200 hp.
You can use the stock 4x4 oil relocation parts, 2 DS exhaust manifolds, a typical short style SBC waterpump, and a near stock clutch.

Here is my Vortec/Ramjet SBC fiero:



Here is my 4.3 CPI/4T60 auto:

The LT1 is slightly different, and with reverse cooling. I don't know that much about it, so I can't give you specifics. It can be done though.

The Vortec engine should bolt right up, and on a budget of 1000, those are probably the best heads you'll find. Swap a cam and some valve springs, and you should be in the 350-400 hp range.

You can probably find a TPI setup for a couple hundred bucks, but they really don't breath well, they're just pretty. The TBI setup will probably get you better overall performance, with a little less tire-melting torque down low and a little more hp higher in the revs. You can even modify an edelbrock manifold for the TBI to improve flow.

Keep in mind I'm no expert, and I've never actually used an Archie kit. I'm just a guy whou reads a lot and has tinkered with cars for a decade or so. I've owned 2 TBI Firebirds, but never a TPI.

Popular HotRodding built a 447 hp version of a Vortec motor, something you could work with later as you get more cash - http://www.popularhotroddin...all_block/index.html

Hope this helps!

quote Originally posted by Adam1988: I recently bought a v8 Archie swap kit off ebay for a heck of a deal (imo) It says the kit is for a 350sbc and for the 4-speed fiero muncie. anyways what engine choices do I have? I'm pretty ignorant in this area so you'll have to bear with me. I definitely don't want to go carbed so I'm looking for more of a modern engine choice. I briefly scoped out the L98 and LT1 and was wondering if there are other options out there? Pros, Cons, other recommendations reliability, etc. Thanks! EDIT: Kit is for 1986 and up engines

I know you definitely don't want to go carb'd but, before you go there you should think about the money. FI is more expensive to work with and to modify. You'll need the ECM and wiring harness at minimum. If you already have the laptop or analyser all is well, but if not, again you'll have a setup expense. So, to budget for those extra costs is a must, before you install an SBC that runs like cr*p and disappoints you.

The advantage of the carb'd engines is that you can buy a carb already metered for the 350 straight out of the box. This means no setup costs. Just some more stuff to wrap your head around.

Arn

I have a 5.7 L and it is carb'ed..... old style mechanics ... very simple and diags are easy to do.... my 2 cents


Here's mine

------------------

Shaved Lambo Doors
http://www.blackwidowfiero.com

"This kits includes the adapter plate for a 1986 & up 350 small block engine, torque rod, harmonic balancer pulley, remote oil filter kit, alternator brackets, high torque mini starters, crank pulleys, flywheels, clutches, CSR electric waterpumps, headers or ram horn exhaust manifolds, and complete custom exhaust system...If you bought this kit from V8 Archie you would easily spend over $3000...This kit has been used it has some minimal surface rust from storage but is in great shape...This kit was used in a show car and hardly has any miles on it...The only reason I am selling is because I am going a different direction and need the space..."


Here is what the ebay list included ^

I don't know why he used plural everything, (starters? clutches?) anyways he had 300positive feedback so I trusted him.

I'll start looking into one of these vortec truck engines, car-part has them relatively cheap I thought they would be 2k and up as they were newer.

I'm not looking for anything more than 300hp really at this point in time, i'm used to driving my little 2.8 around so anything should be an improvement

Again thanks for all the help and advice!

quote Originally posted by joshh44: only difference in a 327 and a 350 is the stroke. has same size bore. you could even put a 305 in if you want. has same bolt pattern. just smaller bores and what not. but if it was my engine. id get a 350 and rebuild it to a 383 stoker. there are lots of rebuild stroker kits out there that are pretty decent. and not expensive at all. unless your wanting forged crank and rods and such. you could get an L98 engine out of a firebird or a camaro. they are an older engine but there fuel injected.

Following that logic, why stop at a 383? Sometimes enough is enough. A 283 would work fine. With the reduced length and weight, I've always thought a 4.3 would be near perfect.

[This message has been edited by weaselbeak (edited 01-16-2010).]

How do you plan on driving it? Are you willing to put together an engine?

If all you want is a torquey cruiser that will still blow away a stock 2.8, and the tires, then get a simple 350 (the Vortec 350 is a good choice for this).

If you want to drive it like a sports car, meaning shifting quickly, rapping it out, and having strong pull up to a screaming redline, then put together a late-model 302 (5 liter).
There was an engine that came in Caprices called the L99 (not to confused with the Gen III new L99). This engine is known as the "baby LT1". It has a 305's bore with a 3" stroke, making it a 4.3 liter V8, and it had 200hp and 245 ft/lbs. Otherwise it's nearly identical to an LT1, one piece rear main seal and all. You could do that swap directly and it'd still be a great Fiero engine and cheap (probably about 220hp as installed in a Fiero), or you could...

Source an L99 crank and its powdered metal 5.94" rods, put them into an '86+ 350 block or even an LT1 block, and you'd have a late model 302 for cheap. The 'worst' part would be getting it balanced because the pistons would likely weigh more than the L99 pistons, but you might be able to find lightweight aftermarket pistons that weigh nearly the same. Even if the balance with mallory metal is required, it's pretty common procedure for machine shops.

Top it off with a mild set of aluminum heads and strong valvsprings, a moderate-flowing intake (many styles available, factory or aftermarket) and a mild cam, and you'll have a 6500-7000rpm long-rod screamer that will match the character of a mid-engine sports car, and with a reasonable budget. A smaller displacement vs. a larger displacement from a given engine configuration will rev higher with the same parts, so you don't need to go wild on the flow. It could easily make 300 hp without using super expensive parts, or even 250hp with all factory parts from various SBC's.

You get multiple benefits with this over a 350. Less low-end torque (though still plenty) to save your tranny, lighter rotating mass (lighter crank) to save your tranny, more traction from a smoother application of less torque (though still plenty), better gas mileage, and a lighter engine overall (though not by much). 5 liters is PLENTY for a 3000lb. car.

Oh, and always take your planned expense and double it. That almost always holds true. No matter which way you go, ultimately it will be a lot of work with the FI (worth it IMO) and will cost a good bit.

Good luck!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-16-2010).]

Hmm, i'll look into the L99, see if I can source one from around here. The vortec also looks promising, how well will my 4spd muncie hold up to these kinds of power?

I wanted to do something different so I've got a TPI 327 with roller cam/lifters/rockers built for an 86GT but with college, renovating a house, and getting married in June its on the back burner. One of these days though.

[This message has been edited by Silentassassin185 (edited 01-17-2010).]

The 327 looks like a good midway between the two choices, did you add the TPI to just a carbed 327? Or are there some engines that came with a TPI 327?

cant u use the 3.27 crank from a 4.8 vortec and put those in one of the LS engines? u can have a modern 327 as well.

does any1 on the forums have a 327 in their fiero? i like to hear it run and rev

Its a 1969 327 from Performance Automotive Warehouse that I put the heads and TPI off of a 1990 (if I remember correctly I'd have to pull out the computer and check the numbers to verify) Corvette. Eventually I'd like to do the TPI to LT1 intake swap but first I just want to get it in the car and running.

I've ridden in an Impala with the 4.3 V8. It had smooth all over the place, and anything around 200 HP makes a Fiero scoot. Did I tell you how silky smooth it is ? That really would be a cool setup. People get lost in cubic inches when the SBC is involved, and I suppose it is understandable. Why not be different ? Another fab choice ........the 5.3 found in a million newer trucks. I feel your pain on such a hard decision. 3.8, 4.3, 4.3 V8, 4.9 Caddy, 350, etc. I decided to go with the 1st really nice deal I came across, and not look back. There is really only one cure, and that is one of each. Or two............How about the cool factor in an old 283-327 ? Or the 327 carrying the 283 crank, as in 302 Z-28 fame ? Endless possibilities with GM.

quote Originally posted by weaselbeak: Another fab choice ........the 5.3 found in a million newer trucks.

The 4.8 and 5.3 are LS based engines and the typical SBC kit he purchased is not compatible with that engine series... not a single part is compatible.

The kit that you have requires you to use a motor that is from a GM vehicle that is newer than 1987 - change to the crank (was stated before). Honestly, it will be cheaper and easier to just find a 305 or 350 from a junkyard vehicle. As stated before, I would suggest to try and find a block from a late '90s pickup (vortec).

For my Fiero, I got this motor out of a 1991 f-body. I wanted TPI, because I like the way it looks. Motor was rebuilt, new cam, headwork, lots of parts from TPIS ( www.tpis.com ).



Dont forget about the transmission!

[This message has been edited by chrishahn87 (edited 01-17-2010).]

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: The 4.8 and 5.3 are LS based engines and the typical SBC kit he purchased is not compatible with that engine series... not a single part is compatible.

Yes, I was just losing myself in all the neat Fiero swap possibilities. Sorry.

I think TPI is one of the most beautifull stock intakes. You can start with it for cheap and get the car running. The beauty of the SBC is that with so many options in the aftermarket later on you can change to whatever intake or fuel injection type you may like. I would do some 350. Easy and cheap to find for best power for $$. Strokers are good but still will involve some tear down unless you get it that way. Just do it and have fun

------------------

Red: TPI V8 + 6-Speed Yellow: Nitrous 3.4 + 4 speed Auto
304rwHP/366rwTQ

Only other motor I would put into my fiero other than my 3800
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Vortec_engine#LQ9

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Only other motor I would put into my fiero other than my 3800 . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Vortec_engine#LQ9

Again that is not a Gen 1 SBC and will not work with the kit which is being talked about in this thread.

I had a 86 350 in one of my Fieros with an Archie kit. It was built by a race shop for the street and stroked to 383. It was also carbed with an Edlebrock. It ran excellent, my troubles was getting a TH-125 auto to stay together on the street. If I was to build another with an Archie kit, it would be a old school 327 with a carb. I was sold on those back in the 60s when i ran supermodified (sprint) style race cars. They would last all season without a teardown in the 8-9,000 rpm range with tons of HP. You had no problem holding the left front wheel in the air the whole way around a 1/2 mile track. As already said you can buy FI kits for it if you wanted. You could also (with enough bucks) run it stock with a 57-60 Chevy factory Hilborn Fuel Injection system. I wouldnt even second think any other small block.

I have an early 1970s block SBC bored 60 over. The heads and intake have been ported and it has larger valves but I don't have the build sheet. Its well seasoned.
Its a monster mated to a stock 5 speed in my 86 GT.

I love the car, its probably the best car I have ever owned. When the money allows I will replace the heads and figure out what Cam I have. Then I want to swap in an after market fuel injection system on a tunnel ram setup.
IF I dont do that I will upgrade the heads and swap the Quad tunnel ram off of my Vette to get the upper RPMs I'm missing now.
Before all of that happens I have to finish the body work before my wife sends me down the road but thats the best thing about the SBC, so many bolt on parts you will run out of money before you run out of possibility's.

I am seriously thinking about doing the LS 302 for the Fiero. Take a 5.3 liter block and mater the 4.8 Liter crank to it effectively making it very close to the 302 in bore and stroke. It should rev like the original DZ 302 (higher revving race engine there) and make the car fun to take on auto-cross (saves shifting duties) and should sound cool too.

Shelby

quote Originally posted by Jefrysuko: Again that is not a Gen 1 SBC and will not work with the kit which is being talked about in this thread.

I knew that, I was just mentioning it...

Its dirt cheap at the junkyards, and IMO is the only v8 that would be worth the swap....

First, contact Archie to determine which particular kit of his that you have? From here, you can then take the great information the above members offered. Remember, add all the items you need, be extra sure your budget can handle the expense, then DOUBLE it! This is the real price

Cordially,
Kevin

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: If you want to drive it like a sports car, meaning shifting quickly, rapping it out, and having strong pull up to a screaming redline, then put together a late-model 302 (5 liter). Source an L99 crank and its powdered metal 5.94" rods, put them into an '86+ 350 block or even an LT1 block, and you'd have a late model 302 for cheap. ... Top it off with a mild set of aluminum heads and strong valvsprings, a moderate-flowing intake (many styles available, factory or aftermarket) and a mild cam, and you'll have a 6500-7000rpm long-rod screamer that will match the character of a mid-engine sports car, and with a reasonable budget.

I have long thought that a 302 would make an excellent swap into a Fiero. Would suit the character of the car like no other SBC.
I didn't realize that one could be built using modern internals.

A 302 with a set of Vortec heads and an LT1 (or better yet, an LT4) intake ought to scream!
The cheap and dirty way would be to destroke an LT1.
The 4" bore and 3" stroke would be identical to the original 302.

------------------
Raydar
88 4.9 Formula IMSA Fasback..........................88 3.4 coupe -soon to be something other than red

Read Nealz Nuze! Praise the Lowered!

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Only other motor I would put into my fiero other than my 3800 . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Vortec_engine#LQ9

"[edit] LQ9
The Vortec HO 6000 ....
....bringing output to 347 hp (257 kW) and 380 ft·lbf ..."

That's about exactly what I have. Gotta be fun. He said he has access to machine shop so maybe he can build his own kit.

So the Vortec series engines will not bolt up to the Archie kit?

With the archie kit then am I limited to just TPI/LT1/Carb'd then?

quote Originally posted by Adam1988: So the Vortec series engines will not bolt up to the Archie kit? With the archie kit then am I limited to just TPI/LT1/Carb'd then?

A L31 would be considered a gen1 SBC, out of a truck.

quote The Vortec 5700 L31 is a V8 truck engine. Displacement is 5.7 L. It is the last production Generation I small-block from Chevrolet. The cylinder heads feature combustion chambers very similar to those of the LT1 V8, but without the reverse-flow cooling. As such, the L31 head is compatible with all older small-blocks, and is a very popular upgrade. It offers the performance of more expensive heads, at a much lower cost. It does, however, require a specific intake manifold (a Vortec head has four bolts attaching the intake manifold as opposed to the traditional six bolts per head). The L31 was replaced by the 5.3 L 5300 LM7. The 2002 model year was the final year for the L31 5.7 L small block V-8 whose origins date back to 1955. The Vortec 5700 produces 255 horsepower (190 kW) and 330 ft·lbf (450 N·m) of torque. It is currently being produced as a crate engine for marine applications and automotive hobbyists as the "ramjet 350" with minor modifications.

Ah I see, so I can pick any Gen 1 SBC. The L31 looks appealing, although the 5300 looked nice too 320/340 drool..

Pending on availability I'm probably going to go with a 350TPI/L31/327.

Thanks for all the help!

Would it be possible to destroke the L31 into a 302 or 327? I'm still new to engine dynamics so pardon the ignorance