Yes, its time for a 2.0L SC engine to be installed to the Fiero. With the Saturn Ion RedLine coming out in 2004, it gave some time for GM to think about what upgrade options would be available. Then the Chevrolet came on broad with the Cobalt SS version. Now coming into 2006, the performance packages are being laid out this week. SEMA is the big launch for Sport Compact and GM Tuners website http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/html/home.htm
Upgrade packages are being released for the EcoTec 2.0L SC boosting power to 250+. Limited Slip Diffs are being offered as RPO options for 2006 in Cobalt and RedLine. These LSD's are for the F35/MU3 GETRAG 5 speed transmission. This transmission is rated extremely well in load ratings. GM must of tested this transmission very well to offer LSD's with full warranty in place still. The GVW on this F35 is 5000 lbs. You can view alot of details at this webpage... Pictures are also on this page of the engine and transmission. Comparsion of the gear ratios also available.
This transmission weighs in at 100lbs. Ratios are very comparable to the 282 GETRAG, but the strength appears to be alot higher. The OEM support of this transmission will be a welcome thing for ratio upgrades that are in the works with Quaife.
This is the engine and transmission explored a little over the weekend..
What do I know at this time? This package will fit in the Fiero with no problems. Mounts are almost designed already. Transmission is located in stock location of current mounting methods of 3800sc, and other swaps. Clutch release is already solved. Axles, now this is the big one. I have no clue on this one yet. My axles just came in today, and I need to get the LSJ and F35 on the cradle to determine this.
Moving the F35 GETRAG to the 3800SC. This will be the nice part of the development if you are looking for a 5 speed upgrade. The adapter plate is already done in MasterCam, but thickness is not completely determined yet. Axles, again will be the same as the EcoTec 2.0 SC install uses.
Axles are the hardest part of this to stay in a good pricing structure. I can get custom axles made at many different places. Most are $400-750 however.
Shifter and cables is in progress.. Something is in the works, but not firm on this one.
Enough about the swap process. Paying customers come first, and I have a lot of work here already to do already beyond trying to make this work in a Fiero.
Can you even get excited about a 2.0L SuperCharged engine? Can you get excited about a 5 speed GETRAG that might handle a nice mod'ed 350HP 3800SC, or LS1. I will concentrate on the 2.0L SC version for now. I really think this is neat engine. GM sure spend millions of dollars in development directly to the racing program, and OEM supporting factors. When Chevrolet comes on broad with anything, the vendor support increases.
Check out this CAD animation of the EcoTec in action... Warning large graphic file >
Weight savings of the 2.0L SC is going to be the big push. 28MPG can be had with a automatic 3800SC. 28MPG in a 5 speed Fiero with 250HP, and a light weight package, that might be the big selling point.
I am just sharing all this to get some thoughts about a 4 cylinder engine. I already know the 5 speed 282 needs to be replaced with something, I just want it to strong, and OEM supported so it will come out in alot of cars to be had at the salvage at reasonable prices.
Enjoy !
Loyde
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01:55 PM
PFF
System Bot
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Loyde, I think the interest will hit big once you get it all finished, and the motors and trans become more available. I have a 3800sc now, and can tell how it handles differently than the 2.8, especially the cornering. If my other Fiero's 2.8L engine and trans went bad, I would Highly consider doing this swap, because of the power and weight. Keep us posted.
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03:12 PM
squisher86SE Member
Posts: 1350 From: Franklin, IN, USA Registered: May 2005
If you figure out how to get the LSJ in there, that should solve it for the 2.2s also? If that's the case then there's some seriously good potential there. GM has an entire build book dedicated to this motor. A very specific book, with parts lists and expected horsepower levels based on the modifications.
Heck, keep us posted here. If I ever 'splode my 2.8 I'd definitely think about this since they quit making the Quad4.
ME TOO! BTW Thanks a lot Revin. Our little ride across the dam at the 2003 RRRR had me saving my pennies for a 3800 SC S2 / 5 Spd swap for 2 years. Guess where my car is now. haha
handling was part of the reason I went for the 4.9 over the 3800SC too bad I got bite hard by the 1/4 mile bug after I had the swap done. I'm not knocking the 4.9 in any way shape or form if you want a good cheap dependable driver 4.9, Track beats with lots of room to grow the 3800SC hands down, however maybe we now have a great option for handling and performance
handling was part of the reason I went for the 4.9 over the 3800SC too bad I got bite hard by the 1/4 mile bug after I had the swap done. I'm not knocking the 4.9 in any way shape or form if you want a good cheap dependable driver 4.9, Track beats with lots of room to grow the 3800SC hands down, however maybe we now have a great option for handling and performance
good timming on this I was almost certain to convert back to a automatic on my 3800sc 2 swap, But since this thing won't be done till after feb (maybe longer) I can sit back and wait
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08:52 PM
ohio86se Member
Posts: 1308 From: akron, ohio, summit Registered: Mar 2002
I have the 2.0SC in my Ion... and it's quite nice. Can't wait to see it in a fiero. While you're doing it though, you should really try to see if you can get the car as close to 50/50 as possible... that's what I'd like to be doing, but money is short these days.
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09:54 PM
fierodustin_86 Member
Posts: 970 From: Joplin, Missouri Registered: Aug 2002
My wife has an 88 coupe with a bad engine and I was kinda interested in that swap. Not sure if she needs an SC motor though. I was hoping that the Fiero trans would mount to the engine. Guess not.
BUMP Can't let this thread die too soon. I think the SC ecotec swap may be the wave of the future. It may bring in some younger people into fiero's also.
Jon
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10:47 AM
FastFieros Member
Posts: 2698 From: Dallas Texas USA Registered: Nov 2000
Holy crap, the gears on that quiafe modifed 6 speed are freaking close...
53...71...94...113...128...140 At 7K RPM's?!?! :WTF:
that must be for the 10K RPM race motor they use, those gears would make much more sense with 10K RPM's. just a rough calculation says that with that 6th gear, at 9800 RPM, you'd be going 198 with a 215/55/16ish sized tire.
those are freaking rediculous though, I want them a a short stroke 1.6 liter ecotec spinning 12K RPM's with a 4.11 FD on that trans. turbo'd too.
That last picture makes the engine look like such a tidy package. It does make me wonder were the water pump is?
Jon
It's chain driven, and it's just up and to the left of the crank pully. (Almost directly across from the alternator). You can see it better by looking at the other side of the engine.
[This message has been edited by Deabionni (edited 11-01-2005).]
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04:54 PM
Fierofreak00 Member
Posts: 4221 From: Martville, NY USA Registered: Jun 2001
The belt is double ribbed. Not a great thing at this time because there are limited sizes. Pulley changes require a special tensioner that replaces the OE one. I have one already. ZZP will be marketing it as well as I will.
The Alt is a sprag clutch pulley just like the 04 ALT on the 3800sc.
The water pump is huge and mounts on the backside of the front cover. Pic>
It is intercooled. It has Laminova cores. I have read some about these. ZZP has done some testing already with these cores and indicates that these cores do not out perform the heater cores they are using in the Stage 2 units. I think some IC upgrades are going to be needed sounds like.
The transmission does come from SAAB. This is a good thing however. GETRAG made the transmission. Guess what interchanges.... The clutch and pressure plate I currently use on the 3800SC fits right in. I have the camaro flywheel already reshaped for this application and .840 is not working. But hey, it was nice of GM to design that camaro flywheel soooo thick, it makes using that thing in many applications.
Axles... Oh my, was this just to easy... More later on this one... There's good and there's fair.. So far, no "bad" however...
Any ideas on routing the exhaust? I notice its opposite of the Duke and points right at the trunk.
TOG and I are talking about a custom header for the Fiero. TOG is already doing the manifold for the Cobalt/Ion and I have purchased one of those to try and see what I can do with it. The stock manifold points right at the trunk. There is room however to do a 90, well its a little less than 90, but anyway, the muffler I use and reshape from FlowMaster should work great in the stock location. No trunk cutting.. No CAT either however. There is a shorty CAT from RT, and I will get one of these and see if I can make it fit also.
Loyde
[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 11-01-2005).]
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08:11 PM
Wht&BluGT Member
Posts: 1175 From: Waterford, MI Registered: Jan 2005
I see at the gmbuilders site there is talk of getting the ecotech to 400-600 hp(actually more, but that is all I would want/need). It doesn't say what the torque would be though, but I assume similiar #'s. I know you need torque to turn the wheels.
I noticed at your site it says about the f35:
Maximum engine torque: 200 lb-ft ( 271 Nm ) Maximum gearbox torque: 258 lb-ft ( 350 Nm )
So will an engine that puts out over 350 hp or lb-ft of torque still kill that tranny? I like the idea of putting the ls1/ls6(400 lb-ft) in the fiero since I can get plenty of power without modding. If not then I was going to go with the 3800sc modded, but I'm leaning in the direction of the ls* engines.
However the idea of modding the ecotech engine to put out the same #'s as the ls* engines, and yet remain lighter does seem appealing in terms of handling. How much would that cost and is it that much of a gain in handling to make it worth the modding?
In the end though I still need a tranny that will handle the power safely. Will this tranny do that job?
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03:19 AM
kwagner Member
Posts: 4258 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Apr 2005
There is a cobalt SS dealer car on campus today for some promotion type thing they are doing... Pretty nice car, never seen one up close before. The engine/trans certainly is some nice packaging...
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12:24 PM
FastIndyFiero Member
Posts: 2546 From: Wichita, KS Registered: Aug 2002
Interesting intake manifold. Bypasses the supercharger and IC at low throttle to avoid unnecessary heating. Very nice.
------------------ My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build. You know that little voice that says it can't be done? I duct-taped mine's mouth shut and pushed it down a flight of stairs.
[This message has been edited by FastIndyFiero (edited 11-02-2005).]
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04:02 PM
FastFieros Member
Posts: 2698 From: Dallas Texas USA Registered: Nov 2000
I wonder how much cheaper it will be to install... a price idea of installing this motor Loyde?
I dont have a clue what pricing is going to be in place for this. I can tell you that the first person will get a better pricing intro on the prototyping than after I have done about 2-3 of them. I can tell you that so far I have $4500 invested in the project. Finding RedLine Ions or Cobalt SS complete are difficult. You have to have the PCM, BCM, and one other module to even start the engine once all the wiring is in place. People at the salvage yards can only go by the Hollenlander interchange of component location and that book only list ONE BCM.. There are 2 BCM's in the Redline for sure. I have not studied the Cobalt to much at this time.
If someone on this forum that has a 2004 Ion RedLine, or Cobalt SS, and reading this will call me, or email me a phone number, I will call you. I need you to look at some parts of the wiring and computers to help me in telling these salvage yards where to look. The service CD's I have are only up to 2005 partial, and I dont think the 04 stuff is 100% correct.
Anyway, thats the best I can do for a pricing answer for now.
Loyde
[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 11-02-2005).]
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08:31 PM
FastFieros Member
Posts: 2698 From: Dallas Texas USA Registered: Nov 2000
I see at the gmbuilders site there is talk of getting the ecotech to 400-600 hp(actually more, but that is all I would want/need). It doesn't say what the torque would be though, but I assume similiar #'s. I know you need torque to turn the wheels.
I noticed at your site it says about the f35:
Maximum engine torque: 200 lb-ft ( 271 Nm ) Maximum gearbox torque: 258 lb-ft ( 350 Nm )
So will an engine that puts out over 350 hp or lb-ft of torque still kill that tranny? I like the idea of putting the ls1/ls6(400 lb-ft) in the fiero since I can get plenty of power without modding. If not then I was going to go with the 3800sc modded, but I'm leaning in the direction of the ls* engines.
However the idea of modding the ecotech engine to put out the same #'s as the ls* engines, and yet remain lighter does seem appealing in terms of handling. How much would that cost and is it that much of a gain in handling to make it worth the modding?
In the end though I still need a tranny that will handle the power safely. Will this tranny do that job?
My numbers come from nothing more than what GM puts on paper. Does GM put the right numbers on everything? I really cant say about that either.
I can compare this way since we will just use GM's numbers.
F35 (Ion/Cobalt 5 speed) as indicated from GM Maximum engine torque: 200 lb-ft ( 271 Nm ) Maximum gearbox torque: 258 lb-ft ( 350 Nm ) Maximum validated gross vehicle weight: 5071 lb ( 2300 kg )
Now the G6 GTP transmission...... F40 ( G6 6 speed) as indicated from GM Maximum engine torque: 245 lb-ft ( 333 Nm ) Maximum gearbox torque: 295 lb-ft ( 400 Nm ) Maximum validated gross vehicle weight: 3527 lb ( 1600 kg )
45 lb-ft on engine torque, and 37 lb ft on gearbox torque. Why such a difference in GVW however? The F35 is strong enough for towing up to 5071 lbs... You figure that your going to put about 250HP to that transmission to even move 5000 lbs around. If you track down the 98-02 Saab turbo you will see HP rating in the 225-240 range. Then lets take the "upgrades" that GM will release for the Ion and Cobalt. Stage 1 gets you to 250HP, Stage 2 gets you to 250+... GM is releasing an LSD option to the F35. Now in my mind this pretty much saids that GM is not releasing true numbers on the F35. Miss documented on purpose to keep the insurance in check for the target market of this car? That is my guess.
Well, anyway, its not that big a deal for me to put the F35 on the 3800SC since I have already got the adapter plate worked out. GM Racing finally sent me the IGES file with the EcoTec bolt pattern. I already had the M6 from the LS1 project.
I only see one supercharged saturn ion engine on car-part.com, they want $3k for it. But it's also basically a brand new engine. Pace Performance has crate supercharged ecotech engines for $3900.
I don't know how much you like third party solutions, loyde, but megasquirt is always an option instead of tracking down upteen control modules. Unless the engine does something really weird that would prevent it from working?
BTW Thanks a lot Revin. Our little ride across the dam at the 2003 RRRR had me saving my pennies for a 3800 SC S2 / 5 Spd swap for 2 years. Guess where my car is now. haha
I wish I had pretty colors going through MY supercharger 
