I'm going to keep this post fairly short, this is just a feeler type post.

Assuming a few things, most importantly that a saturn transmission would fit into a fiero withOUT custom axles, and that shift cables could be made (or even modified), etc. I am curious to see what kind of interest there would be in putting in a saturn 1.9L into a fiero?

Here's the positives of this motor;

1. The transmission- it's awesome, very smooth shifting, very good gear choices. There is also people running 400+ HP through these transmission's without breaking them (with the differential pin welded). There is also a quaife limited slip unit made for it.

2. Lightweight- The motor, less accessories, weighs 220 lbs. This motor is significantly lighter than an ecotec, and over 100 lbs lighter than a fiero 2.8.

3. The motor itself is pretty tough, I've heard on the saturn forum people running 12 PSI through one without breaking a STOCK motor. For reference, 12 PSI is around 250-260 WHP

4. Gas mileage- I've been driving the turbo saturn more for fuel economy than power recently, but with my driving habbits, I get 25-33 MPG around town/slightly mixed driving. That's shifting under 2800 RPM, giving little to no throttle and coasting a lot for the 33 MPG. the 25 is when I get on it quite a bit.

Here's what I think would happen with this motor. You'd have different options depending on what one wants.

Option 1- N/A with mild work done. Port and Polish the head, possibly the intake too, Maybe shave the head for more compression, stock 91-92 saturn header, full exhaust, CAI, and possibly a lightweight crank and flywheel maybe even mild cams, ACT street clutch. Stock MP3 transmission, with the Differential pin welded in place (this is the only weakness on that trans)

You'd be looking at roughly 150-170 HP, 140-160 ft lbs depending on what was picked. you could expect roughly 40 MPG highway +/- 3 MPG and low 30's around town +/- 3 MPG. With a fiero that weighed in at 2400 lbs, you could expect (depending on driver skill) mid-low 15's in the 1/4 mile. Powerband would be best from 4K-6/6.5K (cams would make the biggest difference here).

Option 2- Mild Turbo or S/C setup. Gettart T3 super 60, or a T3/4 hybrid or an Eaton M62 (5-9 PSI). Headwork optional. Lower compression pistons (stock SOHC pistons). Log manifold for turbo, 91-92 header for S/C. Full exhaust. Lightweight crank, or possibly forged crank, rod's, pistons (forged would be lot's of $'s though). No lightwieght flywheel. ACT street clutch. stock cams or possibly mild cams for turbo's. (no one makes cams for the S/C, and at this power level, I'd shun away from turbo cams too). either stock MP3, or MP3 with MP2 first gear, and/or MP2 5th gear for low RPM highway cruising.

Power would range from 195 HP- 275 HP, Similar torque. Highway mileage would still be above 40 (especially if the MP2 5th gear was picked). Still assuming 2400 lbs quater mile would range 14.9's to 13.5's. Power would be best (turbo) 3K-6K. S/C would hit 7 PSI by 2K, and probably make it's best from 2K-5, maybe 5.5K.

Option 3- bigger boost T3/4 or T4 pumping 15-25 PSI. Forged internals, MP2 Tanny, Optional turbo cams ACT 6-puck clutch. Headwork optional. Log manifold, full exhaust, lot's of custom stuff done here.

Power would range from 300- 400 HP. 275- 375 ft lbs. highway mileage would still be 40's if you keep the foot off it. 1/4 would be mid 13's to mid-low 12's. Saturn guys have trapped 115-117 MPH with set-ups like this, with a fiero's traction, I'd be surprised if one couldn't hit low 12's with this.

What I could do, Looking at the wiring, mounts, re-routing off fuel/coolant lines. Mounting of turbo's S/C's etc. I can build the motor if one wanted the lightweight crank, or the lower compression pistons, etc.

What I can't do is tune something. I have no way of tuning the car for someone, that would be all on your own. Like I said, I'm just curious if there would be any interest in putting a 1.9L into a fiero. Ideally, I'd like to get a fiero of my own with a stock MP3, with the mild N/A build, just to show off if it could be done, and get a baseline of power, gas mileage, handling, and 1/4 mile times.

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AIM= Fish100770
96 Saturn SL2 Turbo (evil SL2)

My cardomain site: cardomain.com/memberpage/702872

I thought about this swap because the little twin cam does have some serious tuning potential and the light weight is a real big plus. The negative about it is the ecotec although heavier is the future for GM in 4 cylinder engines and it has more potential than the 1.9 twinc cam.

While I have no problems with the ecotec, Personally, I see the 1.9L as a viable option as well, because it is indeed lighter, and also had an OBDI version. Plus 250-300 reliable HP is very possible. for most fiero owners, I still say this would be a valid swap. Either way, my opinion doesn't much matter, it's more important what the other fiero owners say, so that being said, let's hear some more opinions.

Although I will not have have enough money in the near future to do anthing like this I think it is a cool swap. I have always thought that getting a 87-88 coupe and swaping in a quad 4, ecotech, or saturn 1.9 would be pretty cool to use as a daily driver. Also I saw you mentioned welding the differential pin, doesnt that make it so the tires spin at the same speed all of the time? Wouldn't that make the car's cornering really bad?

actually with mounting the battery in the front and one of these out back it might make one he** of an autocrosser

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Notchies rule, fastbacks drool

quote Originally posted by I wear pants: Also I saw you mentioned welding the differential pin, doesnt that make it so the tires spin at the same speed all of the time? Wouldn't that make the car's cornering really bad?

No, if you welded the Differential closed then you would be right. But there is a pin on the differential that is prone to failure. You can break one on a completely stock car very easily, and what happens is that the pin breaks, and shoots out the tranny, through the case, cracking the case and junking the trans. But it's still an open differential vehicle just like before you weld the pin in place.

It seems to me that the supply of Saturn 1.9 motors is probably greater (right now) than the supply of Ecotecs...I think it'd be an interesting and useful alternative to the "big engine" swaps that are popular now (SBC, 3800, etc).

Ed

Back to the future, this reminds me of the old days of the quad4 swaps.

I have thought about an ecotech swap in the past but with gas prices the way they are the 1.9 would be a nice alternative. I have heard it is a fairly reliable motor. With the large number produced prices should be good. My main goals in a swap are light weight with moderate horsepower. This to make a good daily driver with autocross potential. Are you looking to develope a kit to sell to do this? Don't worry I am not one of the trolls that think everyones prices are too high.
In short yes it is something I am interested in.

Jon

Until it is ACTUALLY installed in a Fiero completely, with all details of wiring and etc done and obviously the TOTAL price then i'm not sure. It sounds good with the hp potential and so on.

quote Originally posted by cy1clown: I have thought about an ecotech swap in the past but with gas prices the way they are the 1.9 would be a nice alternative. I have heard it is a fairly reliable motor. With the large number produced prices should be good. My main goals in a swap are light weight with moderate horsepower. This to make a good daily driver with autocross potential. Are you looking to develope a kit to sell to do this? Don't worry I am not one of the trolls that think everyones prices are too high. In short yes it is something I am interested in. Jon

These motors are reliable, IHMO. The other good thing about them, like you mention, is the number of these motors out there. Another good thing about them, you could find a SOHC motor, therefore making your chances of finding a motor better, and swap a DOHC head on it. of course, for the N/A motor this would be slightly less than Ideal because of the lower compression SOHC pistons, but hey, you don't have to have a twin cam block is the point here.

quote Originally posted by Fiero Finale: Until it is ACTUALLY installed in a Fiero completely, with all details of wiring and etc done and obviously the TOTAL price then i'm not sure. It sounds good with the hp potential and so on.

I want to put one into my fiero, or at least a fiero anyways. Wiring is the only thing that I worry about personally, I'm quite confident that, assuming the trans can use it's stock axles without having to use custom axles (or maybe I could use fiero axles if they didn't work, I'm not sure, things I have to look into). Anyways, the moral is, I want one, but I am just gauging the interest of the fiero community to see if I do indeed do this, if I should try to make a replicable kit for others.

thanks for the input thus far guys

For work I currently drive a 97 saturn wagon with the sohc and 5 speed. It's amazing how quick this little car is with such a tiny motor. Put a turbo on it and I think you might have a winner. I'm definately interested. (and I agree, the tranny is just about perfect)

[This message has been edited by Chump (edited 10-04-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Chump: For work I currently drive a 97 saturn wagon with the sohc and 5 speed. It's amazing how quick this little car is with such a tiny motor. Put a turbo on it and I think you might have a winner. I'm definately interested. (and I agree, the tranny is just about perfect)

O, you're not even driving the right transmission. Don't get me wrong, the SOHC (MP2) tranny shifts smooth and all, but the DOHC tranny (MP3) has so much closer gear ratios it's crazy. When I shift at 3K in my SOHC, I drop to 1800 RPM 1-2, the same 3K shift in a stock MP3 and it only drops to 2200 RPM. and the 2-5 gears are actually slightly closer ratio.

I've got an auto 88GT sitting outside right now. It hasn't run since '99. I'm also leaving for basic training/AIT in two weeks. I should be back in march/april. I'll have a nice bit of cash when I get back and I was really trying to figure out what I want to do with that fiero. I had considered getting a streetbike to drive everyday (other car is a 5.0 mustang that gets 20mpg on a good day). I am interested in a somewhat mild swap. Say.. 200rwhp or so? How difficult would this be? Could it be built with mitsu or saab turbos? If you really get something going, let me know.

quote Originally posted by BDF88GT: I've got an auto 88GT sitting outside right now. It hasn't run since '99. I'm also leaving for basic training/AIT in two weeks. I should be back in march/april. I'll have a nice bit of cash when I get back and I was really trying to figure out what I want to do with that fiero. I had considered getting a streetbike to drive everyday (other car is a 5.0 mustang that gets 20mpg on a good day). I am interested in a somewhat mild swap. Say.. 200rwhp or so? How difficult would this be? Could it be built with mitsu or saab turbos? If you really get something going, let me know.

The saturn I already have running around is a 80's T-bird turbo coupe turbo. It's a T-3 super 60. depending on what size the turbo is, I've been told anything smaller will choke the motor on top-end. Saab turbos are usually VERY small. like T-25's with small exhaust's and compressors. I believe the Mitsu is also a T-25. Either way, a T-3 super 60 or T3/4 hybrid is the turbo of choice on the turbo saturn forum. I quite like it on my car, even with it running REAL rich, it pulls pretty good at 3K RPM and builds lot's of power from there. if you're spinning more than 4K RPM's, in any gear, throttle response is VERY good.

200 RWHP shouldn't be too difficult to acheive, mine (on a bad tune) made 193 FWHP on 9 PSI. I'd say depending on the exhaust, intake, and fuel management (and the tune) 200 RWHP should be easy on 7-9 PSI. On the saturn forum I've heard as high as 221 FWHP on 7 PSI. but mine only made 193 on 9 lbs, so there could be some varrience. the other good news is that those numbers are acheivable on a stock motor. I'd recommend the SOHC lower comp pistons if you could, rod's and crank I'll get back on.

I might be interested in an Ecotech swap kit.

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FierOmar

Depending on how cheap it'd be, I might be interested in the 1.9L swap kit...

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1986 GT Getrag 5-speed

I don't care if it is "CHEAP" I am interested in a good product at a reasonable cost.

Jon

another small update, I went out and weighed the engine I have sitting in my garage. This is some rough estimates, as it was done on a bathroom scale with me zeroing the weight with me on it at 150, then holding the parts, (yes, I'm aware this is probably the LEAST factual way to go about this, but hey, it's all I can do right now).

anyways, my engine is in peices, so I'll list the weights of what I have as it sits.

Block (with crank, rods, and cracked pistons, no accesories except it may still have the water pump)
94 lbs
Head (basically, ready to bolt on including the intake manifold, fuel rail, injectors, etc)
62 lbs
Valve cover = 5 lbs
Exhaust manifold = 8 lbs
oil pan = 5 lbs

for a rough total of 174 lbs.

According to http://www.streetdesignauto.com/home.htm
They list the twin cam as 220 lbs less accesories. off the top of my head I'm not sure what else is missing off my motor aside from the fact that mine doesn't have oil or coolant in it (or accessories), but I'd say that it's safe to say that in a fiero, this motor should only weigh in at a maximum of 250 lbs. I'm not sure how much and alternator or A/C compressor weigh to add to that 220, so it could be a little lower than 250.

here's one website that makes performance parts for the LLO (twin cam 1.9L), for those interested in the mild N/A set-ups. He had made 147 WHP, which is roughly 170 HP. Not sure if that was with ALL the stuff he makes, or what, but 147 is what he ran a 14.2 with.
http://www.streetdesignauto.com/home.htm

I've been pretty intrested in this myself. I see TONS of these motors in the yards. will the 5-speed tranny thats with them work out too? I've been considering getting a spare cradle, and start putting this together. sounds like a great swap to get both 35 MPG & 200+ HP's with some work, while dropping some rear weight.

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1985 Fiero SE - Plain Red V6 Coupe
3.1 Crane272 MSD 4.10-4spd DarthChip Borla
D.A.M.M. - Drunks Against Mad Mothers

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I've been pretty intrested in this myself. I see TONS of these motors in the yards. will the 5-speed tranny thats with them work out too? I've been considering getting a spare cradle, and start putting this together. sounds like a great swap to get both 35 MPG & 200+ HP's with some work, while dropping some rear weight.

You can only use there 5 spd trans on that engine. From what I've been told no other trans will mate up to that engine. The only thing that worries my about that swap though is if the axles will fit in a fiero. I just really don't want to have custom axles made to do this swap.

Bump again

Some internet research shows the 1995 Saturn SC2 with a front track of 1443mm and the Fiero at a rear track of 1492mm. Don't know if this is close enough or not. Don't the inner joints normally have some leeway in this direction?

Jon

I think the thing to measure, is the width of the transmission where the axles go in, if it is the same width as a Fiero one, then stock axles will work, you just have to place the tranny so it is where it is supposed to be to get the axles to fit, then make the mounts from there. Also, you should make sure the splines on the Saturn tranny are the same. If there is more or less splines, then the stock Fiero axles wont fit in the tranny, or if the hole is a different size.

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84 Fiero Sport Coupe #1192 :: 86 Fiero Base Coupe Quad 4 :: 84 Chevette CS 4 Door

After finding out how much weight I'd save just by swapping to this motor, I've resolved that I *MUST* have the 1.9L DOHC in the back of my Fiero, with ported intake and ported heads + headers, it should make a reaall nice swap.
That would bring the weight of my GT down to around 2300, maybe even 2200 and wider tires will allow my handling to increase exponentially. My goal for my GT is 1.0G skidpad, and this'd certainly help it along.

Fish, any updates on the 1.9 swap?

-Mulholland GT

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1986 GT Getrag 5-speed

MULHOLLAND GT

You know! I have a Saturn SC2 DOHC 1.9 5-speed.

It's my wife's but we are looking for another car. I was planning on selling the Saturn, but thinking about it, why not use it as a donor car. Although I'm probably not mechancially incline nor have the equipment to do a swap.

I don't mind donating it for somebody willing to try to make a solid kit for a swap.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: You know! I have a Saturn SC2 DOHC 1.9 5-speed. It's my wife's but we are looking for another car. I was planning on selling the Saturn, but thinking about it, why not use it as a donor car. Although I'm probably not mechancially incline nor have the equipment to do a swap. I don't mind donating it for somebody willing to try to make a solid kit for a swap.

What year is the car? for the right price, I'm more than willing to drive there to get it.

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: What year is the car? for the right price, I'm more than willing to drive there to get it.

It's a 94. It has around 130,000. Runs really good, but my wife complains about the road noise (she drives it on the interstate to work everyday). She also wants a newer car.

I have to get another car before I sell it, but I'll probably sell it for $1000 I guess. It has leather interior, sunroof, power everything, even keyless alarm and tinted windows, if that matters to you.

It also has popup headlights. I'm not for sure if the motors will make a good replacement swap for the Fiero.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 11-13-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: It's a 94. It has around 130,000. Runs really good, but my wife complains about the road noise (she drives it on the interstate to work everyday). She also wants a newer car. I have to get another car before I sell it, but I'll probably sell it for $1000 I guess. It has leather interior, sunroof, power everything, even keyless alarm and tinted windows, if that matters to you. It also has popup headlights. I'm not for sure if the motors will make a good replacement swap for the Fiero.

currently two problems with that, not that $1000 isn't a good deal, but I'm poor (and/or cheap) and I don't want to spend more than $3-500, and two, I'm looking for a 96-98 so I can use OBDII. But if I can't find anything maybe I'll get back with you on yours and see if I can afford it then

I havent had a chance to read all the replies, but I just wanted to add my $0.02 before bed time.

I'm very interested in EITHER a Saturn 1.9 or the Ecotec 2.2 engine swap for the Fiero.
I think the Duke has had its day. Out of respects to the Fiero, I believe we owe it either one of these engines.

Put it this way, if the Fiero were reintroduced, it would have one or the other.

Then.. it would also have the 3.5 V6 6-Speed upgrade option (currently avail. in the G6 coupe)! Schweet!!

On an additional note, I am the proud owner of a 02 Vue with the 2.2 5-speed. I LOVE thae engine! Very strong, efficient and reliable! Again, I'd love to see it in my Fiero!

Keep us posted!

There was a few guys that were attempting the Ecotec swap. Haven't heard from them since, but from what I understand on the Ecotec, is that the Fiero tranny can bolt up to it with little modification.

If it doesn't cost too much and the performance is better than duke--. Yes I am interested.
Frank

If the cost matched the value and quality of the kit then I would buy one for sure

ID prolly do it..motor sounds freakin awsome

I would like to know how this works out, so keep it up and get working will you!!!

Not sure how this would work in CA, with the smog laws, but it should be good

Lightweight, good fuel economy, great power potential…what's not to love? I just have to see it done first.

I was thinking 3800SC, but if this little engine can do the same with half the displacement, less weight, and equal or better reliability, I'm in.