Okay, I'm in looking at a Grand Prix GTP to replace the "87 GT my wife doesn't like to drive, and I'm chattin it up with the owner who tells me the following story. He's friends with a guy who used to be Johnny Carson's neighbor (Mommy had bucks). Anyway, this guy's friends with a bunch of big wigs, Lee Iacoccoa (sp?) detroit execs. Anyway, one invites him to a testing facility in Arizona to try out a Fiero V8 and get his opinion. The guy goes down, tries it out on the track, brings it back and tells them they can't build it. "It's too fast, it'll kill to many teenagers." They jotted down his thoughts and he went on his way....
Gotta say, that GTP was crazy fast. I can't imagine putting that engine in a Fiero, okay, I could, but wow!

Everyone has a story.

I Drove A Jet Powered Fiero ...A Gm 2004 Prototype ...But It Was To Fast ..I Told Them I Would Kill Myself In It ...They Didnt Make It Either...Hmmmm

Or

Snopes ?

You know those things catch on fire, right?

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Bottle Fed 4.9 V8 5 Speed
I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.
"Whatever happened to stimpy?"

That's not how it happened.

They had it out in camo for testing like all the new models, and as they were driving along, a dog started chasing the car. Amazingly, the Fiero outran it. It was just too good, and they had to scrap it because it might hurt the Corvette sales.

I met this guy that used to live right next to the dumpster outside a chinese resturant and it was his dog. He told me all about it.

I have never see anyone that has first hand proof GM ever built a V8 Fiero. In the 80's They showed one at SEMA but it was built by Gary Zimwalt not GM. It was his white BBC that is said to be in Indiana now.

The only car they did worry about was the 2.9 turbo Fiero. It was just over 225 HP. Some with in GM felt if it made production they would have to offer a driving school to teach people how to drive it. Now you look at today and we have 505 HP Vettes they will sell to anyone with the money. Times and thinking have changed.

The story about the Vette people fearing the Fiero are true, with the car improved in 1988 and the 1990 GTP was going to be even faster more aggressive looking. They worried more a lower priced sports car cutting into their sales that they could not afford to lose, not the Fiero's performance. The Corevette has been near death many times and low sales and unprofitrable plant could kill it quick. The only thing that saved the C6 was Chevy shared the Vette with Caddy and Chevys major influence at GM.

This one time, at band camp...

Sounds like another typical ' I know a friend who knew a guy that was friends with a guy who knew............'

I do know that in the early days of pre production the plan (if not actually built) was then F1 type suspension and V8 power. It was supposed to be a full blown sports car. The way they finally got it produced was to make it a cheap economy commuter car using all 'off the rack' mechanicals.

you guys are hilarious, I'm just telling you what I heard. I may go back to get a price on my Fiero and I will attempt to get specifics at that time. He seemed beleivable, but you never know. I'm sure all you young hotshots know better, in fact, I'm willing to venture that you know it all!!! Yes, that's it! ;-)

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: I have never see anyone that has first hand proof GM ever built a V8 Fiero. In the 80's They showed one at SEMA but it was built by Gary Zimwalt not GM. It was his white BBC that is said to be in Indiana now.

Then you haven't seen the 20th anniversary dvd. There's a guy on it by the name of Hulki who talks about the V8 Fiero on it and tells of how it "blew doors of Corvette." Hulki, for those that don't know, is the father of the Fiero. They did indeed test a V8 Fiero at GM and it's fact, not rumor, now.
I do agree with your other statements on the turbo and the Vette. The Vette's been fragile for most of it's life and GM coddles it which is rediculous. The turbo V6 Fiero would have definitely cut into Vette sales as well.

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Don't forget that in 1987, the Buick Grand National was faster than that year's Vette. That was the big headline in all the car rags - the Vette was no longer king of the hill. It was less about how fast the GN was, and they all had to mention that the Vette took 2nd place. I'd be surprised if Chevy didn't become even more paranoid about any competition for the Vette after that. It was an advertising embarassment for them at the time.

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: Then you haven't seen the 20th anniversary dvd. There's a guy on it by the name of Hulki who talks about the V8 Fiero on it and tells of how it "blew doors of Corvette." Hulki, for those that don't know, is the father of the Fiero. They did indeed test a V8 Fiero at GM and it's fact, not rumor, now. I do agree with your other statements on the turbo and the Vette. The Vette's been fragile for most of it's life and GM coddles it which is rediculous. The turbo V6 Fiero would have definitely cut into Vette sales as well.

"And now you know, the rest of the story... Good Day" Paul Harvey ~ and thank you, Dave!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Don't forget that in 1987, the Buick Grand National was faster than that year's Vette. That was the big headline in all the car rags - the Vette was no longer king of the hill. It was less about how fast the GN was, and they all had to mention that the Vette took 2nd place. I'd be surprised if Chevy didn't become even more paranoid about any competition for the Vette after that. It was an advertising embarassment for them at the time.

The rivalry went a bit further. In 85 (for the 86 MY), Buick started telling the brass the HP was 225. Corvette proceeded to quote 230 to top them. Buick released the car quoting 235. First slap to Corvette.

In 87, Corvette released it as 240 HP. Buick released it at 245. Second slap!

87 was the last year so who knows how long that would have lasted but I believe Buick could have keep going into the 280 HP range or higher (but that is pushing the stock parts and still meet the durability requirements). I know, you can crankup the boost and go nuts. I had one. Loved it!

The 86 and 87 are exactly the same horribly under-rated engines.... No changes.

GNX was 300 I believe?

Alas, Pontiac wasn't chartered with creating a replacement for the Corvette so the Fiero wasn't going to be really fast car. Where Pontiac failed was in trying to wrestle that market from Chevy. It was Chevy's job, not Pontiac's, to have the top dog.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 06-23-2005).]

quote Originally posted by TK: 87 was the last year so who knows how long that would have lasted but I believe Buick could have keep going into the 280 HP range or higher (but that is pushing the stock parts and still meet the durability requirements). I know, you can crankup the boost and go nuts. I had one. Loved it!

So did I. I had an 87, running 19lbs boost - everything else bone stock. (Kenne Bell Hi-Lo Pro Chip)
I think they could have easily gone way over 300 HP, even with durability in mind. Stock block GNs are running stupid fast times today with way more HP than the factory would ever release in a production car.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: So did I. I had an 87, running 19lbs boost - everything else bone stock. (Kenne Bell Hi-Lo Pro Chip) I think they could have easily gone way over 300 HP, even with durability in mind. Stock block GNs are running stupid fast times today with way more HP than the factory would ever release in a production car.

That's about what I ran. 19PSI and 17 degrees of advance. Stupid fast! I wish I could have kept it but I have too many cars as it is and I didn't drive it enough.

To your point about GM and how it coddled the Corvette. I guess the only reason they made the "Special limited 20th Anniversery Trans Ams" was for that reason. It was limited. If it was not, it probably would have never made it to production. That car with the right tuning was "Stupid Fast" as well. Well actually some of them that rolled of the line were stupid fast already without special tuning.

quote Originally posted by JaxFiero: That car with the right tuning was "Stupid Fast" as well. Well actually some of them that rolled of the line were stupid fast already without special tuning.

Makes sense to me...
<Bows at the mention of Hulki..>

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Choptop WideBody GT 1 of 1
4.9L-V8- another set back (illness)

Has anyone got photo's or details on this car?

Has anyone on the Fiero staff other than Hulki spoke of this car?

Is there any physical evidence of this car?

I don't mean any disrespect, I just would like to know more details.

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: Then you haven't seen the 20th anniversary dvd. There's a guy on it by the name of Hulki who talks about the V8 Fiero on it and tells of how it "blew doors of Corvette." Hulki, for those that don't know, is the father of the Fiero. They did indeed test a V8 Fiero at GM and it's fact, not rumor, now. I do agree with your other statements on the turbo and the Vette. The Vette's been fragile for most of it's life and GM coddles it which is rediculous. The turbo V6 Fiero would have definitely cut into Vette sales as well.

quote Originally posted by countach711: I'm sure all you young hotshots know better

And you'll find.... that many of the hotshots here.... aren't that young at all/anymore.

Pretty much the only 'story' that I'll ever believe now is what Hulki himself told a bunch of people at the 20th.

As Dan Gunsul pointed out above, Hulki stated a converted V8 Fiero blew the Corvettes away at GM's Milford Proving Grounds, which is a "True Statement". Fact of the matter is that there was more that just one Fiero V8 being tested at GM's Facility, in addition to some pretty quick turbo and supercharged V6 Fiero's. You will not, repeat will not find anything in public print that details how much better these cars performed over the Corvette, and there is a perfectly sound reason for this. The Chevrolet Corvette Group ordered the scraping on all these vehicles (and related test data) with exception the Prototype V6 which never made it into Production ( and I don't believe performance numbers where ever published on that one). The only thing that saved the Prototype was the styling, which GM wanted to preserve in it's Prototype Vehicle Collection.

The main reason Buick got away with challenging the Covette on HP, was that it would not steal as many Corvette customers, as the Fiero GT V8 would have. For this simple reason, Chevrolet Corvette Group beat the crab out of Pontiac. Had GM had a better President at that time, it wouldn't have been allowed to happen, and it would have also drawn GM to produce a more serious Corvette, earlier in it's existence.

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Car History: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/025670.html

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-24-2005).]

quote Originally posted by California Kid: As Dan Gunsel pointed out above, Hulki stated a converted V8 Fiero blew the Corvettes away at GM's Milford Proving Grounds, which is a "True Statement". Fact of the matter is that there was more that just one Fiero V8 being tested at GM's Facility, in addition to some pretty quick turbo and supercharged V6 Fiero's. You will not, repeat will not find anything in public print that details how much better these cars performed over the Corvette, and there is a perfectly sound reason for this. The Chevrolet Corvette Group ordered the scraping on all these vehicles (and related test data) with exception the Prototype V6 which never made it into Production ( and I don't believe performance numbers where ever published on that one). The only thing that saved the Prototype was the styling, which GM wanted to preserve in it's Prototype Vehicle Collection. The main reason Buick got away with challenging the Covette on HP, was that it would not steal as many Corvette customers, as the Fiero GT V8 would have. For this simple reason, Chevrolet Corvette Group beat the crab out of Pontiac. Had GM had a better President at that time, it wouln't have been allowed to happen, and it would have also drawn GM to produce a more serious Corvette, earlier in it's existence.

That was pretty much my understanding on the proving ground V8 Fieros, as well as the turbo V6's

when polio was claiming many thousands of lives in this country a researcher lost his wife to it, and declared he would spend his entire fortune and life to create a cure. In less than 2 years he did. The Polio research centers and treatment clinics were out of business, millions or dollars lost, and jobs were no more for thousands. The FDA and AMA noticed this. Polio was the last disease that a cure was found for since then.

look at cancer today. someone develops a cure. you hear stirrings in the news about it every so often, then a week later it is gone and never heard from again.

Bottum line is. if powerfull enough people (or the people in charge in this instance) have money to lose, then your new idea or product will go nowhere.

Look at Buick GN. there are people getting 1000 hp out of those 3.8's.

In the old days of muscle cars. if something was succeeding at the track, or gaining HUGE popularity, the manufacturers would take notice and present a new line of vehicles that implimented the new powerfull engine, or modification. That is why SO many legendary cars exist from the 60's and 70-71.

Sadly these days, and durring the 80's when the V8 Fieros were being tested, the GM Machine was no longer controlled by the people who felt the thrill of HP anymore. they predict things on paper and worry about the impact on their own job. and that is why there has been NO new exciting performance cars in the US since the 60's, the few that are are priced out of this world. because the american manufacturers are too scared to take a chance on producing a powerhouse for the masses

A Fiero with a V8 would have been a legend, a track champion, and although it may not have spelled the end of the corvette, it would have diminished sales significantly.

Like California Kid says, the vette was not so special durring the mid 80's because it had no competition. when there is NO competition, there is no need to improve what is at the top. by removing the possibility of a V8 mid engine car, they removed a competitive new addition which would have shaken up that nitch of the market and forced a change for the better in performance.

That same GM thinking in the mid 80's, "no V8 Fiero, no Supercharged Fiero, No Turbo Charged Fiero" is the same kind of thinking that has GM (and ford for that matter) in the biggest slumping downward spiral that is not slowing. In investments, your money will not gain much if you do not occasionally take risks. Gm has been by their estimation "playing it safe" since the 70's. Look at them now, they threw all their eggs in one SUV basket, because that was the "Safe" market and "Thats what everyone is buying". now look, the SUV fad (which is allit ever was) is fading out fast, GM sales are dropping fast and they have a crappy car line up without all those "HOT" trucks or SUV's.

see the new GM add, "You pay our employee price" bet the employees feel special now. they are floundering and selling out from within to stop the slump, but they still don't get it.

The V8 Fiero was a risk yes, but its success would have shown them a different direction of possibilities, the big wigs at GM are just too afraid to break their antiquated mold.

wow, what a rant

[This message has been edited by Roland (edited 06-23-2005).]

Thanks for the info. I just have spoken to many who worked on the car and read everything I have ever found over the last 25 years and never found a shread of anything on a V8. I just wanted to see what ever details are out there and learn.

I would like to ask some of the original design team what the mid engine Vette played in the Fiero development. I read in the book by Dave Mclelland "Inside the Corvette" that the Mid engine Vette program was kept alive at GM by some designers and turned into the Fiero program? Fact or not you can decide.

I have never seen any other info to back this up but just ran into to two Motor Trends from 1970 and 1971 that might hold a key.

They each have the chassie layout of the car it has a rude space frame that runs the perimiter of the car with a roll hoop that goes over the car. The radiator looks like it could have come out of a Fiero as it is laid foward with an electric fan much like our cars. In the rear Is a transvers 454 that looks much like the same layout of our V6. Even the exhaust has 4 exhaust tips out of a transverse muffler in the same shape as the GT had. The story from 1971 had the 3 rotor wankel engine that looks much like our 4 cylinder Fiero layout.

I know this could just be just chance but it still make me wonder how much that they learned then may have used or carried over from the 70's mid engine Vette.

Keep in mind that transverse engines even were more rare than mid engine layouts in 1970/71. Lambo shocked the world with their transverse mid engine V12 around 1966. I don't even recall an American car that had an electric fan.

I know the Vette people helped kill the Fiero but could it be the work they did in the 70's help create what they ended up fearing?

By the way the book "Inside the Corvette" is a good read. If you think things that went on in the Fiero program were nuts at times, read this book. It really show how GM works or at time doesn't work.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: Thanks for the info. I just have spoken to many who worked on the car and read everything I have ever found over the last 25 years and never found a shread of anything on a V8. I just wanted to see what ever details are out there and learn. I would like to ask some of the original design team what the mid engine Vette played in the Fiero development. I read in the book by Dave Mclelland "Inside the Corvette" that the Mid engine Vette program was kept alive at GM by some designers and turned into the Fiero program? Fact or not you can decide. I have never seen any other info to back this up but just ran into to two Motor Trends from 1970 and 1971 that might hold a key. They each have the chassie layout of the car it has a rude space frame that runs the perimiter of the car with a roll hoop that goes over the car. The radiator looks like it could have come out of a Fiero as it is laid foward with an electric fan much like our cars. In the rear Is a transvers 454 that looks much like the same layout of our V6. Even the exhaust has 4 exhaust tips out of a transverse muffler in the same shape as the GT had. The story from 1971 had the 3 rotor wankel engine that looks much like our 4 cylinder Fiero layout. I know this could just be just chance but it still make me wonder how much that they learned then may have used or carried over from the 70's mid engine Vette. Keep in mind that transverse engines even were more rare than mid engine layouts in 1970/71. Lambo shocked the world with their transverse mid engine V12 around 1966. I don't even recall an American car that had an electric fan. I know the Vette people helped kill the Fiero but could it be the work they did in the 70's help create what they ended up fearing? By the way the book "Inside the Corvette" is a good read. If you think things that went on in the Fiero program were nuts at times, read this book. It really show how GM works or at time doesn't work.

The Fiero was a "From Scratch" design. I have ever heard ANY information ever that infers it had any engineering from the mid engine vette. A lot of people here know more than I do about Hulki and the other creators of the Fiero, some have spoken with them personally, but from everything i have read, heard, and seen, the Fiero was 100% Pontiac R&D

Hrmm. Maybe it's the Corvair platform? The only mid-engine Vette that I'm aware of, is the Indy, which was made in the late 80s, and had a 600HP LT5 in it, transverse mounted. The same engine, with less HP, wound up in the ZR1 version of the Vette after that.

-- dobey

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: I have never seen any other info to back this up but just ran into to two Motor Trends from 1970 and 1971 that might hold a key. They each have the chassie layout of the car it has a rude space frame that runs the perimiter of the car with a roll hoop that goes over the car. The radiator looks like it could have come out of a Fiero as it is laid foward with an electric fan much like our cars. In the rear Is a transvers 454 that looks much like the same layout of our V6. Even the exhaust has 4 exhaust tips out of a transverse muffler in the same shape as the GT had. The story from 1971 had the 3 rotor wankel engine that looks much like our 4 cylinder Fiero layout. I know this could just be just chance but it still make me wonder how much that they learned then may have used or carried over from the 70's mid engine Vette.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: As Dan Gunsel pointed out above *snip*

DAVE, Dave Gunsul. You almost had it...

There had to have been a second gunman...

quote Originally posted by Raydar: This one time, at band camp...

I stuck a Flute in my ...ummmm...ummm...in there.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: I would like to ask some of the original design team what the mid engine Vette played in the Fiero development. I read in the book by Dave Mclelland "Inside the Corvette" that the Mid engine Vette program was kept alive at GM by some designers and turned into the Fiero program? Fact or not you can

If you read the Fieros history you'll find that Pontiac has been pitching the idea of a 2 seat car for many years. Long before the Fiero in fact but it has always been shot down. They had always pitched it as a sportscar of course til they finally got the idea to try pitching it as a cummuter car instead. That was when the Fiero was born. But as Mr 'Parki' Parkinson said on the dvd at the 20th anniversary speech; "We were shooting for a performance model from the get go." Pontiac has always been famous for their backdoor programs, like the GTO, and this was a prime example. They had to get the car green lighted first and then they would slowly but surely make the car they wanted in the beginning. However, I think the Vette guys knew what they were planning from the beginning and this is why they kept such a close eye on the Fiero program and why they were so against it.
But I'm getting off the subject on a rant there, along the lines of your original question I'd say no the midengine Vette prototype had nothing to do with the Fiero program. Hukli came up with the midengine idea for Fiero and, when you hear him talk about it on the dvd, you can gather why he did it. Besides all that, all you have to do is look under the skin of the newer Vettes and you'll see who's copying whom.
I liked the whole dvd but the speeches he and Parkinson gave are beyond interesting. I've watched that one segment so many times it's not even funny. Hello, my name is Dave and I have a Fiero addiction problem.
Cali made some good points that I was going to bring up in my original post but I didn't want the rant to be to long. The Vette was stagnent for a long time without any competition to make it better. If you look back, the Vette really didn't start to improve until the Viper came out and then it was a sudden scramble for more performance. It's a real shame that they didn't just make the vett better rather than killing the little Pontiac instead. I drive my little formula everyday and to different states all the time and, after every long trip, I get out, look at the car and I think what a shame it is that they killed this thing.

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: Besides all that, all you have to do is look under the skin of the newer Vettes and you'll see who's copying whom.

How true, what is really interesting is the fact the vette didnt even go to a space frame until the c5-1997, despite the fact that it has always supposedly been a high tech car. I work at a Chevy dealer, they have a standing display with a section on Corvette with a very familiar space frame pictured-just makes you think what could be with a mid-engine v8. Personally I dont like the Corvette, since it means nothing else fun performance wise from GM.

Hrmm. Another main point that people seem to overlook in the internal rivalry, is that GM has just moved Vette production to a new facility in Bowling Green, KY just a few years earlier. Better to save your ass, than to let the plant fall to lower production levels, and risk having it closed, in such a short run. But I guess short runs are fine for cars.

Allen Cline said that there was a packaging study done on how well the Caddy 4.x engine would fit the Fiero. The answer was quite well. Somebody outside GM figured that out as well.

My whole point is GM has a lot of engineers working on a mid engine Vette in the early 70's. Some of these very same engineers went on to other divisions and took Ideas that they learned with them from Chevy. This is a common thing yet today.

I know Many like to call Hulki the Father of the Fiero and that is fine his leadership and ideas did bring this car to market but he was not the only engineer who worked on this car nor was it only his ideas that were used in the car. This car was built by a team managed by Hulki and they brought a lot to the table. I am just wondering if any of the engineers that worked on the original mid engine Vette went on to serve as engineers on the Fiero.

Many who worked on the Fiero styling team had worked on the Vette and many who worked on the Fiero in turn went on styled some of the newer Vettes. A few years later the 1990 GTP Fiero design was lifted and adapted to the 4th gen F body.

Too often too many get wrapped up on just Hulki and forget the many other great people that made this car happen. Many went on and did some great cars for GM after the Fiero and we as the Fiero community should not forget them. The Fiero was built by a team not just one man!

And for those who hate the Corvette because they think it prevents GM from having fun cars, You need to go drive a few of the new cars today. I just drove a CTS V, GTO and Cobalt SS today and they let me know the fun is there for the taking with more to come [Solstice and Sky Turbo].

Sorry I was out in the sun a lot today and will stop my rampage.

I will see if I can scan the drawings of the mid engine Vette space frame at work and post the first of the week. If anything they are interesitng since they have Fiero lay out 8 years before they started on the Fiero. I just hope someone will enjoy them since they are interesting.

The GTO is an all Australian car! GM of U.S. totally screwed it up, I drove the Holden version in Melbourne 2003 and the one here doesnt match it at all.

Well according to the guy at advance auto, they never put a v-8 into a fiero because it was too much hp which would induce a wheel stand and ultimately cause the car to flip.... I told him "I think you're wrong" but he knows better...

I totally agree that the corvette dident face any serious compitition untill the Viper appeared. The Vette was caught flat footed and still is far behind the Viper in performance and styling today. Don't the new Vette headlights look familiar lol totally a knock off of the Vipers styling. Also dam ugly IMO not corvette like at all and just wierd looking. GM can try to copy cars that are better than what they have but it will never be a match for who they stole the idea from. 6 year old Vipers still cost more used to buy than a new vette lol.

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85 GT 4 speed 2.8L auto X'er

www.freewebs.com/saskatoonfieros/

quote Originally posted by red85gt: The Vette was caught flat footed and still is far behind the Viper in performance and styling today.

I wouldn't say that now.. they're pushing the same HP out of the vette as the viper now, granted it's the Z06/Z07 whatever they decide to call it. I have a feeling they won't release the true specs on that car either.

I know they were saying the old Z06 did a 12 solid through the 1/4, was even on chevy's website (many people doubt me on the 12's) 100 more HP out of the car I think it'll be pulling damn close to low 11's.

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3800sc Fiero Weeeeeeen... oh excuse me.

Old Z06 was good for 12.9 in good air [sea level] per GM Performance magazine last fall.

New Z06 is said to be good for mid 11's per GM, magazine test are still pending.

The new Z06 at 505 HP is also to start at 65K and load out at $73/74K

Top speed right at 200 MPH

New standard Vette will run what the old Z06 did and price starts in the $40's.

Possable new Vette in the works. 600-700 HP and under 3000 pounds. Code named Blue Devil and may be call SS if approved. Lots of carbon fiber body parts on this one if approved.

Head lights look like they do per projection beams are hard to keep aimed properly if retractable. Also they removed a lot of weight from the car by removing the hide aways. Most cars today are doing away with hide away lights even Ferrari.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: My whole point is GM has a lot of engineers working on a mid engine Vette in the early 70's. Some of these very same engineers went on to other divisions and took Ideas that they learned with them from Chevy. This is a common thing yet today. I know Many like to call Hulki the Father of the Fiero and that is fine his leadership and ideas did bring this car to market but he was not the only engineer who worked on this car nor was it only his ideas that were used in the car. This car was built by a team managed by Hulki and they brought a lot to the table. I am just wondering if any of the engineers that worked on the original mid engine Vette went on to serve as engineers on the Fiero. Many who worked on the Fiero styling team had worked on the Vette and many who worked on the Fiero in turn went on styled some of the newer Vettes. A few years later the 1990 GTP Fiero design was lifted and adapted to the 4th gen F body. Too often too many get wrapped up on just Hulki and forget the many other great people that made this car happen. Many went on and did some great cars for GM after the Fiero and we as the Fiero community should not forget them. The Fiero was built by a team not just one man! And for those who hate the Corvette because they think it prevents GM from having fun cars, You need to go drive a few of the new cars today. I just drove a CTS V, GTO and Cobalt SS today and they let me know the fun is there for the taking with more to come [Solstice and Sky Turbo]. Sorry I was out in the sun a lot today and will stop my rampage. I will see if I can scan the drawings of the mid engine Vette space frame at work and post the first of the week. If anything they are interesitng since they have Fiero lay out 8 years before they started on the Fiero. I just hope someone will enjoy them since they are interesting.

i am not sure why you are beating the mid engine vette drum so hard. except that perhaps you are a frustrated fan of that failed experiment and are trying to find it in similar but unlikely places. Sure, theoreticlly engineers move around in GM, but you are i think moving into the realm of fantasy with your "Fiero was created by the mid engine vette people" theory.

if you look hard enough at a potato chip, you can see the virgin mary in it. but that does not make it a divine holy tater from the heavens.

sometimes a chip is just a chip. The Fiero is not a bastard child of the mid engine vette. say it three times and take a deep breath...

quote Originally posted by watts: And you'll find.... that many of the hotshots here.... aren't that young at all/anymore. Pretty much the only 'story' that I'll ever believe now is what Hulki himself told a bunch of people at the 20th.

I realize not everyone's a pup on here, can't I throw a few barbs myself? I thought most of their retorts were very funny, actually. Besides, it's good to know our younger crowd, (and yes, I'm still assumming most of the joke responses were from the younger crowd) has a good bit of skepticism to them.

As for my "story", it actually seems to be corraborated a little bit here if anything, which frankly surprised me. I expected to get ripped. Someone mentioned a testing ground, but didn't mention what state it was in. Was it Arizona? Again, I plan to return to the dealer and will ask for specifics. I'll even try to get his buddie's number and go for some real, or at least first-hand proof.

The following is for your enjoyment only and not to prove a fact. I just found it interesting and wonder if there is a connection. I am not tring to bring Darwinisam into this as some feel. Sorry I don't have a scanner.

So please for your own safety say this 3 times this only for my enjoyment and is only a thought. Now take a deep breath.

The V8 looks like the Fiero V6 layout [Motor Trend June 1970}

The rotory looks like the 4 cylinder lay out. [Motor Tend December 1971]

Quote Dave Mclelllan Corvette chief engineer from book Corvette from the inside page 96.

"Styling , always pushing for the mid-engine sports car, would keep it alive untill it re-emerged as the Pontiac Fiero".

Some of the players who were involved at Chevy and Pontiac heavily in the 70's and early 80's were Bob Stemple, Irv Rybicki, Jerry Palmer, John Schinnella as stated in the book. Each were very key to getting the Fiero built.

I just thought some would enjoy this and I found it interesting. It made me wonder if there was a tie that has never been found out . Who know some day we may find out.

Again this is not fact and sorry for the sarcasim above but it was only ment in fun. I just felt I was getting rebuffed for something interesting and some seamed to take it as if I was presenting it as fact.

I hope you enjoy the pic's. Please leave it as this.

Keep in mind when these drawings done Ferarri's street car were front engined, Muscle cars were in their prime, radial tires were just starting to appear, electric fans were very uncommon and transverse engines were only seen in a couple cars from england and the Lamborgihini Muira. So this was pretty exotic stuff for 1970. It really was amazing how far things advanced in the 70's even if most of the cars were not that rememberable.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 06-25-2005).]