quote Originally posted by red85gt: I totally agree that the corvette dident face any serious compitition untill the Viper appeared. The Vette was caught flat footed and still is far behind the Viper in performance and styling today. Don't the new Vette headlights look familiar lol totally a knock off of the Vipers styling. Also dam ugly IMO not corvette like at all and just wierd looking. GM can try to copy cars that are better than what they have but it will never be a match for who they stole the idea from. 6 year old Vipers still cost more used to buy than a new vette lol.

Vette's also considerably behind the Viper in price, undercutting by about $30K. The new ZO6 will eat the Viper alive; same horsepower but approximately 300# weight advantage.

Ever put a C6 next to a C1? That's where the headlights came from.

The headlamp change on the Corvette (fixed mount) was not intended to copy anybody else, it was driven to reduce the high warranty cost repairing of the retractable headlights, that's a fact right out of GM.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: I know Many like to call Hulki the Father of the Fiero and that is fine his leadership and ideas did bring this car to market but he was not the only engineer who worked on this car nor was it only his ideas that were used in the car. This car was built by a team managed by Hulki and they brought a lot to the table. I am just wondering if any of the engineers that worked on the original mid engine Vette went on to serve as engineers on the Fiero. The Fiero was built by a team not just one man! And for those who hate the Corvette because they think it prevents GM from having fun cars, You need to go drive a few of the new cars today. I just drove a CTS V, GTO and Cobalt SS today and they let me know the fun is there for the taking with more to come [Solstice and Sky Turbo]. .

I don't mean any disrespect by this but, you really need to learn sme Fiero history. I certainly agree that there's always unsung heros in every car or project but Huki did a lot more on Fiero then you seem aware of. Also, the Fiero was it's own and not some old Vette hand me down.
There's a fair ammount of literature & vids out there on the Fiero BTW. Once you start really looking, you'll find that Fiero was very much it's own car and the people behind it were very proud of it for that reason alone.
Your second point about the exciting cars today doesn't really work. I don't mean that in a bad way but here's why I say that: performance cars are always made but you'll note that none of those you listed really have any threat to Vette. Caddy is the only exception but Caddy has been trying to seperate itself more and more from GM lately. I believe the reason might very well be this Vette holding back thing that's obviously been going on for some time. Obviously I have no proof of that but it's just something I've thought for a while now as Caddy has been improving more and more. I think they're tired of being told what to do by corporate and starting to flex some muscle. Caddy probably is the strongest part of GM next to Chevy at this point in time after all.

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I have read and own much of the Hulki info you speak of. I know it as well as you. I just have a different view.

I take nothing away from Hulki but I just give due to the others who worker over him and under him.

Hulki is like Shelby, He was the one who came up with the ideas, put the people together and he put his stamp on it. He was the one who inpired, directed and made it happen. He did contribute many ideas to the car but it would be short sited to say they were all his. Too many forget the work of Dean Moon who put the first 260 small block Ford in for Shelby. Even Shebly gives credit to those who worked with him and for him, he is the first to say he did not do it alone.

I agree no matter how you dice it Hulki lead the program but I think John Schinella would take exception if Hulki claimed he styled the car or Callies, Dorn, Zaydel, Falardeau and others on the engineering work the others contributed. It takes a team to build a car. Hulki even had gone to Chevy before the pilot cars rolled out in 1983. But it was the people he put together that carried on with the car to his and their credit.

Point is Hulki has gotten his do and that is fine, He deserves it and I have no issue with this. But so many other did contribute and made a difference in the program and too few know of them or give any credit to them. Even you should understand this since you know your history.

At this point you have a right to your opinion and I mine. This is not going in a direction is not going to better the Fiero in anyway, so it is better left alone at this point. I hope you would agree with me on this point it is better to agree to disagree.

As for your second point. Why would GM need a second Vette? The XLR is going in a different direction as duplicating the Vette is point less. Also The Vette gets the nod as 52 years of heritage is waste full to squander. GM duplicates to many cars in too many lines today. This is why Pontiac and Buick are getting revamped now.

The cost of doing busness today is very high and what worked in the past no longer works today. This is part of what is causing GM so much trouble to day alone with health cost.

Even in companys like Ferarri, they make sports cars but they don't compete against themselfs. All ther cars are directed to special segments of the sports car market. I would love to see each division get a ultra fast 2 seater but it is a limited market to start with and not a high profit one to boot. You can't always do busness decisions with your heart.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 06-25-2005).]

If you owned and know so much of the history as yopu say then you wouldn't be thinking the Vette played a part in the Fieros construction.
Also; I never said that Hulki was the only one who made the car, I agreed with the fact that there is always unsung heros in every project in fact. All I said was that Hulki had a lot more to do with the car than you seem to give him credit for. He wasn't just standing there barking orders and taking credit.
I certainly agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion but the Vette did not spawn the Fiero. Check the history out and you'll see that.

As for competing within the same company; the way you word it is different than what happens, or happened, at GM. The other performance cars have been either held back or bumped off because of the Vette and that's rediculous. The Camaro is a great example. Same engine usually and yet always held back in one way or another. I know you'll argue that but it is true. Look at the 80's F-body, why in the heck couldn't you get a manual trans with the 350 TPI?? The Vette had that set up so why not the F-bodies as well? Stumper aint it.

[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 06-25-2005).]

Well your right and I am wrong. I am sorry I shored some photo's and pondered sopmething I stated I never said was fact. Happy?

I also guess you don't understand flag ship for GM. The Vette is listed as the perfomance leader. The same at Ford where the Mustange will never out power the the Mustang GT.

You can only have one leader and when your doing it cheaply with the same part you make small changes or in Chevys case fudge numbers at times. Your really don't think the SSR is really 5 HP short of a Vette?

On the plus side the Blue Devil Vette stands a good change of making approval due to the fact Caddy has some 500 HP cars coming and the Z06 is sitting in the way.

Where is my popcorn, this is getting good!

Alright ladies, let's not get our panties in a bunch, everyone's entiltled to their opinion, right? I'm glad we are all so passionate about our points of views, but let's try to keep it cool so as not discourage further recourse. This IS just getting good. :-)

Let's remember that years ago the big heavy V8 was THE only way to fast performance. The SBC still can be fast but today we have super V6 engines like the 3800SC that are capable of mid 12 second 1/4 mile times or better. Look at the the racers like FieroX that hit the 11's .

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quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: The other performance cars have been either held back or bumped off because of the Vette and that's rediculous. The Camaro is a great example. Same engine usually and yet always held back in one way or another. I know you'll argue that but it is true. Look at the 80's F-body, why in the heck couldn't you get a manual trans with the 350 TPI?? The Vette had that set up so why not the F-bodies as well? Stumper aint it.

The way I understand it was the F-body 5 speed couldn't hold the power of the 350 TPI (heck, it could barely hold the 305), and both the Doug Nash 4+3 and the ZF 6 speed were too expensive to put into the F-body. It wasn't until the 4th gen that we got the 6-speed in the F-body, and even then the LT1 was rated lower than the same engine in the Vette. The differences in ratings is usually explained as more restrictive air intake and exhause as compared to the Vette.

I'm surprised the LS2 in the GTO is rated the same as the LS2 in the Vette. The Z06 isn't out yet, so they are both the current top of the line models for each maker.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: The way I understand it was the F-body 5 speed couldn't hold the power of the 350 TPI (heck, it could barely hold the 305), and both the Doug Nash 4+3 and the ZF 6 speed were too expensive to put into the F-body. It wasn't until the 4th gen that we got the 6-speed in the F-body, and even then the LT1 was rated lower than the same engine in the Vette. The differences in ratings is usually explained as more restrictive air intake and exhause as compared to the Vette. I'm surprised the LS2 in the GTO is rated the same as the LS2 in the Vette. The Z06 isn't out yet, so they are both the current top of the line models for each maker.

they actually did make an anniversary edition z28 with the zf trans and wanted to make a run of them but they were not made eevn though the press was excited about it. why not offer the zf trans in the f-body was and is what i'm saying. the t-5 trans that came behind the 305 f-bodies wasn't really strong enough at the time as you indicated but there really wasn't a valid reason to not offer teh zf trans.

as for the flag ship arguement; here's the thing, why does that have to be the flagship shouldn't the performance leader be the leader because it deserves it and not because the other cars in the lineup are held back? If the Vette can't keep up then it's rediculous to hold the other cars back is what I've been trying to say.
Also, I don't know why you have the need to get so bent out of shape about this whole discussion. You act like I ran over your dog or soemthing. I understand your thoughts and I never said anything bad about bringing them up and discussing them but, when you bring up a random thought like that, obviously others will bring their input as well. You looked at an old mid engine Vette prototype and saw soe similarites that made you think the Fiero took from that idea. You obviously have followed the Vette history quite a bit but are slightly lacking in your knowledge of Fiero history. I never meant that as any flame like you're making it out to be. All I meant and am saying is that you should read up on the Fiero some more and you might be able to see that Fiero is it's own car. This was all within the subject brought up by the original post and this is a discussion forum. All I did was state a few things from the Fieros history to rebut what you're saying. This is a discussion thread and I don't see why two sides can't be discussed.