Do you want to stretch the envelope for something way cool? What are the possibilities of designing true knock-off spindles? Consider what can be the avalible choices in racing wheels: BBS's Compo's, etc... Of course the kit car crowd would also gravitate to the knock-off. Is it possible?
Thought I'd bump this to the top and also let everyone know that I heard from Ross this week. He wanted to know specifics of my order - how much drop, bolt pattern, coating system (powder coat or anodize). This tells me he is getting close to production so anyone still thinking of joining in might want to decide soon so we can get the best discount possible.
Karl
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01:47 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I've been doing a little research into bearing cartridges appropriate for the upcoming '88 knuckle. '93+ F-body front hubs and '98+ W-body rear hubs are mostly interchangeable... just need to drill the threads out of the F-body hub and include a spacer plate to make up with the difference in offset.
Those two hubs cover the 5x115 and 5x4.75 circles... I just need to find one with the 5x100 circle. Should I also look into other manufacturers' hubs to get the 5x4.5" pattern?
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-19-2003).]
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11:05 PM
Dec 20th, 2003
FastIndyFiero Member
Posts: 2545 From: Wichita, KS Registered: Aug 2002
So the multpattern hub won't work for the 88s? A 4.5" would be nice as the rims I was looking at are 4.5"x5, but I'm sure I can find other rims I like. If we were to use a 5x4.75 rim, could we slide the 13' c-4 rotors right on the hub(4.75")?
Steve
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11:08 AM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1639 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Will: Sometime ago you stated: "You can fit the 11.25" LeBaron rotors inside the stock 15" wheels. That's one thing I kept in mind when designing this setup: it will be easier for people to buy if they don't have to change everything else around it. You can go with the 11.25" rotors right away and keep your 15" wheels."
As I understand from Walt Zettner's article, the 11.25 Lebaron rotors are used with the Camaro caliper and require a minimum 16" wheel. Are you using a different caliper? Have you designed a mounting bracket (adaptor) that is different from WZ's? For my purposes, being able to use 15" wheels with the 11.25 rotors would be a plus. BTW, a 15 inch wheel (including the stock Fiero wheel) will fit over 11.25 rotors with the calipers mounted on the Chrysler applications.
------------------ FierOmar
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12:05 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
... In case anyone asks, I won't be able to do a no-drop knuckle. The minimum drop is 1/2", maximum 2". I think I will standardize on 1/2", 1 1/4" and 2" sizes. ...
Since I'm recovering from knee surgery, and I've still got some design work to do on the brake caliper brackets, I won't be able to road test the prototypes until the end of January. But once that comes around... OH YEAH, IT'S ON!
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
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07:14 PM
PFF
System Bot
Dec 24th, 2003
bushroot Member
Posts: 496 From: Grand Rapids, MI, USA Registered: Jan 2003
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc. '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow
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09:16 AM
Jan 4th, 2004
sspeedstreet Member
Posts: 2306 From: Santa Maria, CA Registered: Dec 2002
Working out the details of the brake setup. There's been a change of plans. The 11" 5x100 pattern brakes will not use the Camaro caliper. After examining the clearances (or rather lack thereof) and the necessity to mod the caliper, I think that the Camaro caliper is not appropriate. I'm looking into using LeBaron calipers, and am currently awaiting a Brake Buyers Guide and Brake Illustrated Guide from Carquest. I think that these two books will help me find the best choices and make an informed decision among them.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Will, I have a question about the setup. I use the 13" rotors and some brackets for the camaro calipers to be mounts. Are the knuckles the same as stock as for where the caliper would have mounted? Do they still have the right sized centering ring made into them for the vette rotors, or is it the size for hte 11.25?
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08:44 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
As long as your brackets bolt to the outer face of the caliper mounting ears, they will also work with the Street Dreams knuckles. The SD knuckles have thicker than stock mounting ears because they are aluminum rather than iron/steel, but the thickness is added on the inner face. For this and other reasons, STOCK BRAKES WILL NOT WORK.
The rotor pilot OD on the hub is for the LeBaron front rotor. When I install AutoCAD on my new computer and can open my own drawings I'll get back to you on exaclty what that diameter is. When I get the brake brackets hammered out, I'll also send them drawings of the necessary centering rings.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Do that again, only mean it this time
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09:21 PM
PFF
System Bot
Jan 26th, 2004
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1639 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
I have a couple sets of the Lebaron GTC 11.25" rotors and calipers lying around. One set is mounted on my 85 L-Body Shelby Charger. I don't think they will work on a Fiero. I'll try to take photos within the next few days.
------------------ FierOmar
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12:35 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
The giant Chrysler caliper bracket won't work on a Fiero, but if you ditch the bracket and select one of the styles of calipers that retains its own pads, then the caliper is quite useable. The thing is that Chrysler has a dozen different calipers used in those three years or so... and the one I happened to pick was rather expensive.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Do that again, only mean it this time
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01:08 AM
Jan 27th, 2004
Seanpaul Member
Posts: 1320 From: Santa Rosa, North CA. Registered: Mar 2003
I'm going to be getting the prototypes for measuring sometime in the next couple of weeks I hope. We had a couple of mild fit issues to work out, but we were able to handle those over email.
I'll post pics when I get them, and bust some serious tail designing the new brake upgrade.
I've looked at the Camaro caliper option for the 11.25" brakes... and no matter how it's done the caliper has to be modified, and I don't want to be selling that to people. I'm going to find a caliper that works without modification. LeBaron calipers would actually be useable, but they tend to be expensive and there are so many different varieties of them I had to make a spread sheet to keep them straight. I got a CarQuest illustrated brake guide and a brake buyer's guide... I'll be putting some time into those books until I find a cheap workable caliper.
I'll be able to design the 12" and 13" brackets more or less as soon as I get the knuckle, however.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Do that again, only mean it this time
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05:30 PM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1639 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
I'm may be a little confused (or a lot confused for that matter). It was my understanding that the Camaro caliper was the caliper of choice on the front when using the Zettner upgrade. And an early 80's Seville caliper was used on the rear. If using the Zettner design brackets in conjunction with the new hubs, why would the Camaro caliper need to be modified, except perhaps to allow use of a 15" wheel? ( I seem to recall that you mentioned that your design was intended to work with 15" wheels.)
------------------ FierOmar
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11:41 PM
Feb 10th, 2004
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by FierOmar: I'm may be a little confused (or a lot confused for that matter). It was my understanding that the Camaro caliper was the caliper of choice on the front when using the Zettner upgrade. And an early 80's Seville caliper was used on the rear. If using the Zettner design brackets in conjunction with the new hubs, why would the Camaro caliper need to be modified, except perhaps to allow use of a 15" wheel? ( I seem to recall that you mentioned that your design was intended to work with 15" wheels.)
No, ALL Zettner type setups require that the Camaro caliper be modified. That's just one of the aspects of it that its proponents sweep under the rug. When Walt Zettner originally did his research, he found something that was "close enough" for him to modify and have it work on his car. He published his results on the internet, along with plans for his brackets, just so other Fiero enthusiasts could do what he'd done. These plans were treated like gospel to the extent that pretty much ALL current Fiero aftermarket companies have a version of his setup. ALL of them also require that the Caliper be modified. Their literature doesn't tell you that however. If you ever need to replace one of the calipers supplied with their kit, you'll have to do some grinding. I'd like to avoid that, so I'm looking for a caliper that doesn't have to be modified. I'll make my compromises elsewhere. Odds are that the caliper I find won't be compatible with GM brake line fittings, so custom lines will be required. Street dreams will supply these, and any decent city should have a hydraulic supply company that could make them if necessary.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Sounds like you got alot of research into this, but I am more interested in the hub having the right diameter for the rotor to sit on it without haveing centering rings.
How much longer can you expect it to take before they are ready? Mark me down for the second production run.
------------------
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01:46 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
The LeBaron rotor will not require a centering ring, but the 12" '98+ F/W-body rotor and the 13" '97+ Vette rotor will require centering rings as their pilot diameter is larger than that of the LeBaron rotor.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Will the multi-pattern hubs be available for the future '88 spindles? I want to run the 13" rotors in the front, and from what I understood they (hubs) were aluminum also. With the rotors @ 20#s a peice I would like to save weight if possible. I'll probably want to run the 12"s in the back to save the stock calipers and e-brake, unless you come up with a better caliper that retains the e-brake.
I just ordered the first set of knuckles. The total for knuckles, 7075 hubs, and anodizing came to $750. Ross says that all of the people who contacted him about the initial order will get this price (less if you want 6061 hubs or no anodizing). Afterward, the price will go up somewhat because the new knuckles are more difficult to make than the old ones, although they are refining the process. Ross said that a basic setup with no anodizing and 6061 hubs would run $800-850 and 7075 hubs with anodizing would be $900-$950 range.
I would have liked for it to be cheaper, but this is the way things came out.
I apologize for the wait to all who put in orders. This product is being built and you will get yours. It just takes some time to work the kinks out of a new product.
Ross also has some extra sets of 6061 hubs with no bolt circles drilled yet. Those of you doing kit cars with Ferrari wheels and the 5x108 bolt pattern should get in touch with Ross.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
That price is higher than I was looking forward too. I still would rather the hub fit the 12" and 13" rotors without centering rings. I dont think it would be that hard to have another program which cuts a larger center ring for the rotor.
------------------
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10:09 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
The thing is... if it fits the 12" and 13" without a centering ring, then it won't fit the 11.25" rotors at all because they have a smaller pilot diameter. The design maintains the most flexibility this way.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
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10:31 AM
Mar 26th, 2004
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
No, ALL Zettner type setups require that the Camaro caliper be modified. That's just one of the aspects of it that its proponents sweep under the rug.
That's weird, I have the street dream drop spindles, with the V8archie brackets and 11.25 rotors and camaro calipers and didnt have one thing to modify on the calipers. Everything fit like a glove.
I'd really like to see this combo: aluminum lowering knuckles, aluminum hubs, aluminum bracket to use 13" aluminum hat rotors from c4(ie. wilwoods), and f body aluminum calipers. Im sure he or you could design some aluminum hats so we can lighten any brake combo we use as long as you pick one manufaturer like wilwood or someone for the outer roter. Design the inner brake rotor hat, we buy the corvette outer rotor from a 2 piece design and we get the whole enchilada. We wouldn't necessarily need a multi-pattern hub.
Design a multipattern aluminum brake rotor hat and we can all drive around in pretty vented, slotted 2 piece design rotors, even stock cars. Wouldnt that also be another cool product to have or sell. Just another option to think about.
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05:20 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by VISCERAL: That's weird, I have the street dream drop spindles, with the V8archie brackets and 11.25 rotors and camaro calipers and didnt have one thing to modify on the calipers. Everything fit like a glove.
Did you buy the calipers from Archie?
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
