Well, since I have a 1985se with a 4.9/4t60e-Ed's harness-rockcrawl chip I thought I would put in my 2cents here. It seems everyone on here is only worried about 1/4 mile times. I like to think of my 4.9 Fiero in a different light. Consider why an ever growing number of people would rather ride a Harley Davidson than a crotch rocket. They don't care if the crotch rocket can beat them in a 1/4mile for many reasons. Some of those reasons are the very same ones that I like about my 4.9. It sounds better period! It rumbles nicer-period! It gets better gas mileage than most dukes! It turns heads every time I turn a corner and give her the gas-----those heads that turn and look don't care what I do in a 1/4mile---they're thinking-boy that car sounds sweeeeeet! So remember that not all Fiero lovers have to have a 1/4mile car--because some of us don't care about that. I would rather ride a Harley anyday than a crotch rocket-----and that's why my personality is very very happy with the 4.9. I would also like to do a 350sbc someday when I have the funds.
------------------ Proud Member of the DOWN SOUTH SUNNY WINTER drive your Fiero Naked Coalition. 85 4.9SE 4T60E Parks harness/ Rockcrawl chip-- No I do not want to race!
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09:22 AM
GT Member
Posts: 911 From: Silver Spring, MD USA Registered: May 2003
Yeah, back in the day I wanted to see how fast I could go. I always wanted to try a SBC but the thought of my water pump sticking out in the fenderwell gave me nightmares, so I went the SC3800 route. At the time 240hp/280lbft was a lot of power and then after the pulley upgrade it was really insane. I can't imagine what you and Earl are doing right now! Back then the Fiero 3800SC intercooler hadn't been made yet either. So after ROASTING Corvettes with that car (which weren't as fast back then as they are now ) I realized how fast do I really NEED to go, ya know?? So I sort of lost interest and the car sat. I sold it to Jason. I was up at Jason's house last month and he has the whole engine in peices on the garage floor being ground smooth and detailed for powdercoating. It's going to be NICE! He still had my old rims which have new rubber on them and he was nice enough to sell them back to me for a decent price.
Back in 2003 I bought a 3.4 TDC from BV Motorsports that had a spun bearing. I thought that would be a cool swap because of the Ferrariesque sound and it's being in keeping with what GM would have eventually used. I spent a buttload of money rebuilding it. One day I was reading the forum and I saw 4.9 swap questions over and over and it occurred to me, "I coulda had a V8"!! No water pump in the fender well, no adapter plate, V8 rumble, lots of torque? Sign me up! So I put the TDC up for sale and bought a 4.9 with 90,000 miles from ebay for $450.00. I got an Isuzu from Clint Nichols and I got all the parts for switching to a 5-speed from Ed Parks. I'm going to take my time with it and detail the engine and make it look really nice this time.
With this swap I guess my priorities have shifted (maybe I'm getting older). I guess there comes a time when enough is enough. The 4.9 is enough and it suits me. I grew up with V8 cars and while smaller engines are fine for my Grand Am, I really want a reliable V8 in my fun car. OK, OK, enough of the BS, I'm cheap, what can I say!! A stock engine with close to 300 lbft?? That just bolts right in with no cutting? CHEAPLY?? To me it's a no brainer. With 2 small kids and a wife and a house to keep up I don't have time for tuning and re-tuning and fixing broken things on a Fiero. I'll be lucky to get the time to do this swap. Rockcrawl's got the chip thing down, Ed Parks has the mounts, and I like doing the wiring. I'm looking forward to it. I'm sure I'll see you at Carlisle this year, with or without my car.
Sorry for the tirade, haven't seen you in a while
[This message has been edited by GT (edited 01-23-2005).]
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09:39 AM
GT Member
Posts: 911 From: Silver Spring, MD USA Registered: May 2003
COOL, glad to see your "Back in the S**T!" as the soldiers used to say! BTW, would love a ride in that thing when you get it done. Never had to opportunity to ride in a V8 Fiero. Oh, is Jason sticking that motor in his white coupe, as I suspect??
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10:12 AM
GT Member
Posts: 911 From: Silver Spring, MD USA Registered: May 2003
Yeah, that's the plan. He put all that money into the suspension on the white car and couldn't handle the thought of doing it all over again. So he chucked my old car and saved the engine/Getrag for the white coupe.
I'll let you drive it when it's done. I'm sure it won't be as thrilling as yours, but it sure will sound cool!
[This message has been edited by GT (edited 01-23-2005).]
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10:36 AM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
I ended up selling it when I was about 75% done to Micky Moose here on the forum. He has it installed and running now.
I was selling my house and had to get rid of my toys so I sold an 85GT and the 4.9 as a package deal for $1500. Ouch. Ended up keeping the house so I went out and bought an 86GT and threw in a 3.4dohc.
I went with the dohc becsuse it is cheaper to work on, easier to install and has more power than the 4.9. With free mods my engine should be around 230hp. I love it because no matter what speed your going, you can drop a gear and the engine will sing.
If I pass a truck with a trailer and pull out at 60mph, by the time I'm at his cab I'm at 100mph. Pretty cool feeling.
Nothing wrong with a 4.9. Its not very quick stock and some people are ok with that. If you want to spend some money on it, it will wake up. PJB and Rockcrawl have shown the motor does have potential.
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11:58 AM
PBJ Member
Posts: 4167 From: London, On., Canada Registered: Jan 2001
I will take my car to a track this summer, I'm curious to see what it'll run.
I worded that wrong. Compared to most cars on the road a 4.9 is quick. But compared to other engines in fieros other than 60*V-6s, its one of the slowest swaps, stock. A 3.4 dohc V-6 being cheaper and easier to install being as fast as a V-8 is pretty good. The 3.4 is 1.5 liters and 2 cylinders short of the 4.9. From the time slip I just posted, its also quicker than the fastest stock 1/4 mile 4.9 posted. Like people in this thread have said, the 4.9 is not suited for the 1/4 mile. Its a nice cruising motor, sounds nice and is reliable. No need to defend how fast it is, its just not there.
To each his own.
[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 01-23-2005).]
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02:55 PM
FieroMaster88 Member
Posts: 7680 From: Mattawan, MI Registered: Nov 2000
I will take my car to a track this summer, I'm curious to see what it'll run.
I worded that wrong. Compared to most cars on the road a 4.9 is quick. But compared to other engines in fieros other than 60*V-6s, its one of the slowest swaps, stock. A 3.4 dohc V-6 being cheaper and easier to install being as fast as a V-8 is pretty good. The 3.4 is 1.5 liters and 2 cylinders short of the 4.9. From the time slip I just posted, its also quicker than the fastest stock 1/4 mile 4.9 posted. Like people in this thread have said, the 4.9 is not suited for the 1/4 mile. Its a nice cruising motor, sounds nice and is reliable. No need to defend how fast it is, its just not there.
To each his own.
True ture! The DOHC Swap is another one of my favorite swaps. I know if I ever get a ride in one I'll be hooked! I'm still trying to figure out how I ended up with a 4.9. I was never a fan of V8's. But I like my 4.9.
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02:59 PM
PFF
System Bot
GT Member
Posts: 911 From: Silver Spring, MD USA Registered: May 2003
Even though Darth shows a time of 14.1 on the 1/4 mile list, on the last page of the link crzyone posted, Darth says:
quote
My bone stock 3.4 DOHC (using stock manifolds) 5-speed SE ran a 14.1 @ 97mph in the 1/4. Would have run in the 13's with a better clutch and if a tranny mount didn't break. I am sure a good set of headers would improve the e.t. by at least a tenth or two with no other mods done to the engine.
I think I'm more interested in 1/8th mile times or 0-60's if anyone's got them.
This has been really interesting. But I think I have to go away and do some HP vs Torque research to fully understand this whole thing. The Caddy has 200hp and the 91 TDC auto has 200hp. However, the Caddy has 275lbft and the 91 TDC auto has 215lbft. That's a 60lbft difference in the Caddy's favor, PLUS the Caddy weighs less than the TDC. Yet the numbers we have show that the Caddy is slightly slower in the quarter. Could be that we don't have enough data in regards to final drive ratio since it seems that most folks with a TDC opt for a manual and most folks with a Caddy opt for the auto. We would need figures from either two autos and cars of the same model or two manuals and cars of the same model. Different Fieros have different weights and different trannys have different FDR's. At any rate, I need to go research how torque and HP are related. I sort of have an idea, but something in the back of my skull isn't adding up... be back soon...
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03:57 PM
wiccantoy Member
Posts: 3372 From: northwales , pa / Williamstown nj Registered: Mar 2002
untill you take one person in each fiero the same year, same trans , one carbed , one injected (3 cars). no one will know the difference. each person drives different , and has different driveing tecniques. i know when i drove a 3.4 tdc and i drive my injected 4.9 with 5 speed there is no way i would change to a tdc. but that is the great thing about personal preference. if you really want to decide on a swap , drive one the way yours would be set up if you where to do it .
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04:11 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
Only the 91-93 autos were 200hp, the 94-95 autos were 210 and the manual 91-95s were also 210. The 96-97s were rated at 215.
My engine was from a 94 grand prix gpt, rated at 210hp. I have confirmed that the previous owner had a 13* exhaust cam retard done and this is said to give a 20hp increase. In a fiero, with a short non restrictive intake and a free flowing short exhaust system this motor should be making alittle more than the 210 advertized hp. If I had to guess, I would say my motor was closer to 230hp, but I plan on taking it to a dyno soon to verify. I hate seeing hp claims without backup so I will get to a dyno. My motor pulls hard to the 7200rpm rpm limiter. Its a neat feeling when your car behaves alot like a 3.4 pushrod until about 4000rpm and then just "wakes up" and turns into a monster. Every shift brings it smack back into the powerband. Its a fun engine.
I didn't mean to turn this into a 4.9 vs 3.4 thread. They are completely different animals. Its whatever you prefer. High reving powerband, or a punchy low reving V8. Both engines have next to no aftermarket, and both engines react well to any mod you do to them.
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04:12 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
We would need figures from either two autos and cars of the same model or two manuals and cars of the same model. Different Fieros have different weights and different trannys have different FDR's.
You can't compare the 2 engines with the same transmissions. You have to compare the 2 with ideal fdr's A low geared trani won't be good for a 4.9 because it runs out of breath and a long geared trani won't be good for a tdc because it needs to get into its upper rpm range quickly.
Ideal for a 3.4 would be a 4:10 4 speed, best for the caddy would probibly be the econo 4 speed or an isuzu 5 speed.
Torque doesn't mean anything if you can't carry it into the higher rpm range. If you have to shift the caddy at 5000rpm and the tdc is able to carry 215lb/ft to 6500rpm, the 3.4 is going to win on account of being to utilize the shorter gears longer.
The caddy just off idle is already in its peak torque, a tdc is gaining its torque until about 4500-5000rpm. The torque curves are almost opposire eachother. A big improvement for the 4.9 would be a cam regrind. It has a diesel like cam that tas made to give grandma and grandpa nice pull at low rpm.
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04:25 PM
GT Member
Posts: 911 From: Silver Spring, MD USA Registered: May 2003
Still need to do some more research to find out why a high revving engine with 60lbft less torque can win in the quarter. I know it has to do with torque, rpms, and time, but I don't have a firm grip on ot yet.
Pete, in the archived post above the little Mrs (her86GT) said this:
quote
Torque makes you the first person to the next red stop light but horsepower gets those speeding tickets to add up. A V8 sucks in the city sometimes
Sounds about right!
-Rick
[This message has been edited by GT (edited 01-24-2005).]
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04:27 PM
Jan 24th, 2005
GT Member
Posts: 911 From: Silver Spring, MD USA Registered: May 2003
Torque doesn't mean anything if you can't carry it into the higher rpm range. If you have to shift the caddy at 5000rpm and the tdc is able to carry 215lb/ft to 6500rpm, the 3.4 is going to win on account of being to utilize the shorter gears longer.
Don't judge the 4.9 without driving one, things are way different than on paper.
...if you only care about specs and what car has the most impressive numbers, then buy a McLeran F1 - not only is it faster on paper but on the road as well...
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11:28 AM
GT Member
Posts: 911 From: Silver Spring, MD USA Registered: May 2003
See, that's my whole thing... If I rev the 4.9 to redline, say it's 5000...I've got at least 90% full torque from 2000 to redline. SO I rev to 5000, shift, it goes down to 2500-3000 I've still got nearly full torque! TDC has full torque from like 4000-7000, I'll have it from 2000 to 5000. I've got more torque over 3k rpms than the TDC... with the TDC I have to wait from idle to 4000 to get to my power band, so I lose whatever, like a half second in first gear just getting to where the power is. But in the 4.9, power comes on immediately and, if I shift right, I stay at peak torque all the way down the strip. I dunno, I'll know fer sure when I get this beastie finished.
OK, NOW I'm done hypothesizing... but it's just so much fun!!
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11:49 AM
exoticse Member
Posts: 8655 From: Orlando, Fl Registered: Jun 2003
See, that's my whole thing... If I rev the 4.9 to redline, say it's 5000...I've got at least 90% full torque from 2000 to redline. SO I rev to 5000, shift, it goes down to 2500-3000 I've still got nearly full torque! TDC has full torque from like 4000-7000, I'll have it from 2000 to 5000. I've got more torque over 3k rpms than the TDC... with the TDC I have to wait from idle to 4000 to get to my power band, so I lose whatever, like a half second in first gear just getting to where the power is. But in the 4.9, power comes on immediately and, if I shift right, I stay at peak torque all the way down the strip.
The 4.9 does not hold peak torque through the rpm band. Past 3000 or so rpm it starts falling, and by 5000rpm is has the same or less than the 3.4tdc.
Here, I made a little graph to show roughly how the torque curves of both motors would look
I'm sure seat of the pants, the 4.9 feels great. Up to 80mph or go it must fly, especially with a stick. But dynos and 1/4 miles show the 3.4 to be faster. Dynos for a stick 3.4dohc show it to be in the mid 170s for hp, I've only seen a dyno for auto caddys and they are in the mid 150hp range. I didn't pick the 3.4 as the ultimate motor, I'm just pointing out the obvious. The 3.4tdc is quicker. I'm sure same day, same track it would come down to the driver.
I'm not for either swap. They are the "bargain" engines. The ultimate engines imo are the N* and LS1. If I had to give a motor "biggest bang for buck" status, I would give it to the 3.4tdc. Its simple to install, reliable and a high 13second engine in the 1/4 mile. It suits the fiero as a sports car engine.
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03:35 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Myself, I like the high reving motors. A N*, short*, or a 3.4dohc, they are all good.
Some people don't care to race, so any cool sounding engine thats faster and more reliable than stock is great. A stock 3.4dohc isn't exactly a racecar engine to begin with, it needs some money spent on it to make it shine.
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04:52 PM
GT Member
Posts: 911 From: Silver Spring, MD USA Registered: May 2003
I guess I got sidetracked from the point of this thread, and that was to see how fast our cars actually are compared with other cars out on the road. I know we fight and holler and nit pick about our cars here on the forum because we like them so much, but really in the grand scheme of things we are a really close knit and unique bunch of folks here in the Fiero community. I don't know how many times I've been on other lists and someone will ask a question about some engine swap and the reply will be, "I'm not sure, why don't you go over and ask one of those Fiero guys." Anyway, it just makes me proud, not only to drive a Fiero, but to be part of this community. Semper Fi-ero...
I know I'm gonna regret this post later...
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07:00 PM
Kento Member
Posts: 4218 From: Beautifull Winston Salem NC Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by GT: I know I'm gonna regret this post later...
HEHEHE sure you don't already!
To he11 with what everyone else says , built wtf you want and enjoy it. IF it is not what you want, not like you won't be able to swap something else in there. I mean it is not like you spent $35K plus for it to find out you don't like it.
------------------ 4.9 Caddy ON CRADLE in Garage! Car in Driveway! ACK! **************************************** http://home.cfl.rr.com/fierose Central Florida Fieros http://www.centralfloridafieros.org Proud Member and founder of the DOWN SOUTH SUNNY WINTER PICK ON SNOW PEOPLE COALITION!
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07:57 PM
GT Member
Posts: 911 From: Silver Spring, MD USA Registered: May 2003
Oh, I'm doing this swap! No doubt in my mind. I've wanted a V8 Fiero since I bought my first SE back in 1991. I want it so bad I can taste it! Now if the trucking company would get it to my house I could quit bugging you guys and get to work!
You do all know, of course, that one of the little *bonuses* of trekking down to Alabama for the Fiero Factory swapmeet at the end of April ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/048755.html ) is the fact that the owner, Ed Parks, tends to throw the keys to his 4.9L powered '85SE to pretty much anyone who asks for them....
How's that for getting "perspective"?
Jeremy B.
(oh, and...in past years, by asking nicely, I've been given rides in SC3800's, DOHC's, and SBC's. Actually got to keep and drive the SBC for a few months before that...but I had to BUILD and tune it to get that little privilege!)
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12:38 AM
86fieroEarl Member
Posts: 2203 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2002
I gave kento a ride in mine, And even let him drive it, I gave malacite a ride and he loved it, I also gave rubin from the fiero club a ride in mine... I tore down the street and all I could see is his knees on the dashboard telling me to slow down LOL... infact all the ppl that have got a chance to ride in mine was sold on the 4.9.... So that tells you something..... We all know it's not the fastest fiero swap out there.... But who cares? I did this swap solo and mine runs and im happy with it.
I have respect for any fiero engine swap it being going from a duke to a 2.8 or a 3.1... I also have respect in the ppl who work on there dukes to make them better.... That saying anyone who puts love in the fiero gets my respect.
It also suprises me how this little izusu holds up to the 4.9... And I have beat the h@ll out of it. The engine itself is very forgiving also I have even took the thing well over 5000rpm.... And unfortantly I take it over that alot... But it seems to not faze it one bit. except for the clutch)
Before doing mine there were naysayers but I ignored and did what I wanted because it was my car I think why the 4.9 crowd get alot of flack because ppl think were doing these swaps and swearing there the fastest thing in the world. We know that and the fact is NO fiero engine swap is the fastest in the world but all swaps still get my respect... BECAUSE IT'S A FIERO.
But I have all my tools for port work so in the next month I will be getting ANOTHER 4.9 just to use my new tools
A note... If you want speed out of the 4.9 then read up on it... Then do a tear down and like mentioned above... The cam needs help and the heads on these are pretty restrictive... To give you a idea. And porting these heads are extreamly Time consuming and defaintly not a overnight job..... Im practiceing on a set of buick 350heads The iron is forgiving but porting alluminum will not be forgiving so defaintly get practice before you start attempting to port the manifold on these.
On here somewere I had a writeup on tearing down the 4.9. Because when doing this engine it's not like rebuilding a SBC it's a bit of a pain but can be done if you know what your getting into The thing I hate about the 4.9 is the removable cylinder liners.... WHY?? arggghhhh!!
This is also not the cheapest swap out there when doing this project for the first time... A welder will save you abit of money tho. Because like all engine swaps something will be worn when tearing down the car... Tranny mounts ect.... Also if you want to save a bit of money and the engine comes with the computer and wiring ect... Then do the wiring for the fuel injection, It's free and there are only 8 to 9 wires you have to deal with.
if you go carb that's fine... it wont make it faster but give you room for other adjustments, Playing with the mechanical timming serves good results... But that can also be done with a fuel injection swap also with the right equipment. Anyway rockcrawls chip does all that for you, So it's not really a worry with fuel injection. and with his chip and all the wiring hooked up the proper way will give awsome results.
And the last thing...of advice, a worn engine will not have the same power as a non worn engine... keep that in mind and just don't throw in anything that you do not know the condition of or history about.... When I bought mine the place started up the wrecked caddy and all... I also decided to do a compression check as well. For the peace of mind.
Down the road, Someday I want to do a 3.4TDC engine also in another fiero....Another one of my favorite swaps I always liked... I don't care for the timming belts on them... But I can't have everything
[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 01-25-2005).]
You do all know, of course, that one of the little *bonuses* of trekking down to Alabama for the Fiero Factory swapmeet at the end of April ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/048755.html ) is the fact that the owner, Ed Parks, tends to throw the keys to his 4.9L powered '85SE to pretty much anyone who asks for them....
How's that for getting "perspective"?
Jeremy B.
Heck I just showed up one day out of the blue and he threw me the keys now I own a 4.9 Powered fiero werid isn't it.
(oh, and...in past years, by asking nicely, I've been given rides in SC3800's, DOHC's, and SBC's. Actually got to keep and drive the SBC for a few months before that...but I had to BUILD and tune it to get that little privilege!)
The Eldo's use a Cross-under Y pipe configuration so you will not get the typical cross over pip you see all the time. the problem is the Trunk side (fiero) is the firwall side on the caddy and it sticks straight out!!!! you can not use that one in a fiero swap/install. You will have to get Deville manifolds or the older 4100 manifolds.
Here is my build thread, you can see the stock Eldo manifolds real well
I used two Eldorado/Seville front manifolds and a custom Y pipe, similar to the one that Rockcrawl has on his page, but with a bottle muffler instead of the Flowmaster: http://www.fieroaddiction.com/caddy49f.html
I was going to go the custom built header route as well, but this turned out to be cheaper once I found out about it.
Tim
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12:31 PM
GT Member
Posts: 911 From: Silver Spring, MD USA Registered: May 2003
I do like how that's routed, in that it doesn't go over top of the transaxle. In my state I need a catalytic converter. It does look like there would be some room on the front side to put one in the stock location. And since the oil filter is on top of this engine I don't see a problem with putting a cat there. It looks like those manifolds flow pretty well... not as good as headers I'm sure but they seem to have a nice flowing shape coming out of each port. Thanks for urging me to take a second look at those photos.
-Rick
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01:21 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
) I realized how fast do I really NEED to go, ya know?? So I sort of lost interest and the car sat. I sold it to Jason. I was up at Jason's house last month and he has the whole engine in peices on the garage floor being ground smooth and detailed for powdercoating. It's going to be NICE! He still had my old rims which have new rubber on them and he was nice enough to sell them back to me for a decent price. 
BTW, would love a ride in that thing when you get it done. Never had to opportunity to ride in a V8 Fiero. Oh, is Jason sticking that motor in his white coupe, as I suspect??
I know if I ever get a ride in one I'll be hooked! I'm still trying to figure out how I ended up with a 4.9. I was never a fan of V8's. 
But I like my 4.9. 
, built wtf you want and enjoy it. IF it is not what you want, not like you won't be able to swap something else in there. I mean it is not like you spent $35K plus for it to find out you don't like it. 
