well it's "A" and where do you get "pissy?" if it was B you'd know it and that ain't my style.
Glad to hear it's "A", and sorry I haven't had the opportunity to know how you are. I assumed "B" and that you seemed "pissy" because my first post was a question of what we needed to do to change his mind, or get them made somehow. Your retort was questioning my literacy (which seemed like a "pissy" thing to do).
I'd love to buy a set, and know THOSE in particular would be a profitable seller. I understand the losses incurred when people R&D unpopular kits/parts. I'm just saying that you had a great idea that will sell if given the chance. Only time will prove, so I'll keep my envy in check until that time.
Greg
PS - Yay, the first page 2 I've ever owned!
[This message has been edited by FieroGTguy (edited 10-01-2004).]
IP: Logged
06:51 PM
Reality Member
Posts: 1026 From: Marietta,OH,USA Registered: Nov 1999
The stands turned out great. I was out at the shop the other day looking at them on the decklid, and almost convinced myself to put a wing on my car just so I could use the stands myself I am on vacation this week and will be working on the car if you get really bored on your days off (hint hint) If not give me a call and I will see if I can get up there on thursday if you are off of work.
As for the above mentioned stands and the ongoing debate as to what is going on with their availabiity. Fiero Warehouse has discontinued sales of the stands at this time due to complaints over the listed price. Meaning that there were more complaints from people saying the $185 price was to high compared to the number of people actually makeing a purchase. As well as the numerous people commenting on the fact that since the stand only contained "$20" in materials and that was what it should cost. And with the lack of support from informed individuals getting involved confirming the amount of work that it takes to build a set to any size a customers wants as well as including all ne mounting hardware and shipping them out ready to paint, and the amount of effort that is put into each stand to make sure that it was sure footed enough to withstand the amount of drag and downforce created from repositioning the wing. So yes the decision was made to pull the stands from the market and yes it was because people where over zealous when the felt the need to voice their complaints on the price.
I would hope as well as many others would as well that the wingstands will make a return and maybe when they do the general market will be more willing to accept that maybe and aftermarket product that is built by hand and with great care isn't going to cost the same as a peice of crap plastic that you purchase at Auto Zone.
Thanks for listening to the rant, and once again Kelly I can't wait to see the car and all the mods that are being done. Take care, Anthony
PS: Sorry if I am stepping on anyone's toes, you know who you are.
To those that may be interested in wing stands, either the new style "set back" 5", the flared 7" or the original custom made to your height specs version. As things stand at the moment, I won't be making them anymore, at least anytime soon. They are much too time consuming to be profitable, even at the "inflated" $185 price. After the materials, packaging, shipping and profit sharing, I don't bring enough from a sale to make it worth my while to make them. If I were to charge what would be profitable for me, they would be completely unreasonable for what they are. I've had many other ideas I'd like to be working on, but was tied up making wing stands much of the time. When somebody orders something from me, anything, I do my best to get it done and to them in a reasonable amount of time. We put on the web-site that parts may take 6-8 weeks from the time payment is received, but I don't believe anybody has ever had to wait that long after their order was placed.
These most recent additions to the wing stand line I produced, were motivated by Kelly (Kameo Kid). Not to steal any of Kelly's thunder, but this is another thing that I had in the back of my mind that I just didn't have the time to work on, until Kelly provided me additional motivation by saying that they were exactly what he wanted. A way to move the wing back on the deck without drilling new holes in it. The 7" version which I did last spring, was the base for the 5". Made a 7" and took out 2" and moved the top half back as far as is practicle and glassed it back together and did the finish work to produce the plug to make the first mold from. This is not done in a couple hours. It happened over the course of several days. Same is true of any of the wing stands I made. They are very time consuming, labor intensive, and tedious, to say the least.
I am working on putting together an alternative to my making them, that would make them available to those who are willing to pay what MAKING them is worth, but it's not ready just yet. I have other projects that I want to get rolling and as I've pointed out before, I work alone 99% of the time.
So the best I can tell you at this stage of the game, is don't write them off yet, just don't wait on me to make them, cause I'm probably not going to, at least not for the same money I have been. Don't get the wrong idea here, I'm really not a greedy, money grubing individual, I just expect to make more than $30 a day for doing custom fiberglass work, wouldn't you?
Not intending to be a smart azz here, but not long ago a forum member made the statement that in his estimation, wing stands shouldn't cost more than $20 to produce and could be made from scratch in two days. That, as I recall included making a plug, pulling a mold and producing the first set of parts, finished, ready to be shipped. If he cares to step forward to make good on his claim, you can order from him and I'll leave my molds on the shelf and get on with other things. If he chooses to stay incognito and not step up, I'll see about getting the stands made available again, even if it's only once-in-a-while on ebay, or through Fierowarehouse but not on a "can order" basis.
Thanks for your interest and input, everybody, sign me "tired of making wing stands for peanuts"
It amazes me that people will pay $100.00 for a pair of "Nike" (or whatever brand is now cool) shoes, but unwilling to spend a little for a custom part. Of course who am I to chime in here as I am a stock Fiero owner and not needing these kind of parts. However I know down the road sometime I want to do another Fiero. Not a stock, but something I can do on a more custom level. These stands appeal to me.
Custom work is just that, custom. If we all had the time we could all make these, right? Time is my problem, so I rely on those with the time and talents to do things like this.
I applaud all of the Fiero vendors for what they do. It is a car that every year there is less of a market for. We need to support these people as much as possible. Every year they need to look for other ways to make their living, which means less time dedicated to the Fiero.
Don't let this forum be a true sample of all Fiero owners. The more I read the more I realize that the people doing a lot of the posting are some of the cheaper owners. If you make a good product and price it reasonably...let people buy it or let them walk away. Don't take it personally.
Frankly, I'm stunned... I never knew my opinion would make you quit making them. As far as I have seen and as far as I have read I am the only one to comment on the stands, and the only reason I did so was because Doug said it would take months to develope those 5" stands.... how long have you been working on them to get them done? Only one stand is needed to be produced for the plug of multiple molds....Couldn't have been long because I contacted Doug about them not long before you must have started the development. Not until I was insulted by doug, for standing up for Aus, did i ever have a problem with prices, and only due to the smart ass remarks more then the price itself... I have over $17,000 into my car, and would have gladly made that higher by buying your products until the attitude I recieved for standing up for someone who is my friend, and a fellow fiero owner.
The fact that my comment is enough to make you quit production has left me awe striken... if i said said to jump off a bridge would you? I in no way intended for any of this to happen, nor did i intend to bring on the insulting jabs just for sticking up for a fiero vendor who has never done wrong to me. And, if it wouldn't have been for Doug's attitude towards me and insulting me, I would have still bought products from fiero warehouse because as a business, you operate well, but frankly, your people skills in reacting to a price quarl, suck. The price is or was not ever an issue for me and i would have gladly bought them, do i contridict myself? yes I do, I made one comment about the possible costs of production, and instead of explaining the aspects of it, I was insulted for it. Yes by size, i doubt there is more then $20 worth of materials, and this is also what I said... PRICE OF MATERIALS... not developement, marketing, molding, production, shipping, etc... by design? I hope you would say these are realitively simple to design, since only 1 has to be made, but more difficult to make do to the fact they are hollow. the plugs in fact are the exterior of the part... 3 days to make a set? yes I see that... why? the molds are most likely in halfs, you lay up both halfs and glass them, allow the resin to cure properly, pull the part, cut off excess, bond the halfs together and glass them, allow that to cure, and drill and install the internals. so yes, I understand the 3 days because I know glasswork and the time it takes...
"Whelp, We took your advice, and discontinued making the stands becasue I couldn't pay SAGE what they were worth. So, here's your chance to start making those $10 wing stands. You'll be the only guy in the world making them, just like we were. Think of the money you'll make. You can quit your TacoBell job."
This is a pm I recieved from Doug, should I post a quote from it? you bet... why? it insults me for which i dont deserve since I have not made any comment to doug since our last encounter and out of the blue I recieve this.
I work construction, and work very hard for every penny I make, as I'm sure you work as hard for your's Sage. But I will not tolerate such jabs towards my age. I am 19, worked since I was 13, had numerous jobs, and worked and saved, none of which was ever a fast food job. The fact that I was addressed with an attitude, as if I were a punk who does nothing but cause problems for you, really makes me ashamed. Why stoop this low? I have no idea... ask Doug on that one, I only went by the side of the story my friend told me.
It's a shame you are quiting the production of these stands, they do look good. Good day.
[edit] Also I noticed that now you say these would cost $150? which is the $75 a stand that I talked to doug about, which I find is a very reasonable price that most fiero owners can afford... I'm not complaining about prices, perhaps only suggesting you could achieve better sales by making them more affordable to most fiero owners
not this "The stands should be near $600/apir. Neither SAGE or myself want to ask that much."
**Also, this requires no smart ass remarks or flames from onlookers, this is a problem between me and Doug & Sage, that they decided to make public. so if it doesn't involved you, stay out of it**
[This message has been edited by Nebiros88 (edited 10-02-2004).]
Welp, I guess this calls for some kind of response, just to try and set things straight.
Truth be told, several years ago, (yes years), I watched as 3 or 4 different people all said they were going to start making wing stands. As I recall, there was even a thread that shows pics of what appear to be the injection molds from GM, I beleive the poster was from California, but don't really know. Weeks went by and no wing stands. Months went by and no wing stands, these people just kind of "dissapeared" or stopped talking about it, or forgot about it or whatever, bottom line, nobody did it. There were polls taken to see what people wanted made, wing stands were always on the list. Then my oldest son came back from a show somewhere, (might have been Fierorama, don't really remember), and said someone who bought a set of my original full panel scoops and picked them up at the show, wanted to know what else I might be making in the future. I had mentioned to Tony,(my son), before the show, that if noone else was going to actually do it, I would give it a whirl, so with that information, Tony told him I was planning on making wing stands, to which he got the response, "You can't make wing stands out of fiberglass." Don't really even remember who it was, sorry, but it doesn't really matter to the story, that was a personal challenge, not a threat or a put down, but just a personal challenge, which I tend to enjoy. I like being able to do something that someone says I can't, within reason of course. So I says to myself, "Self, you CAN make fiberglass wing stands!" you just have to figure out how to go about it. In essence, the man was right. Fiberglass is not the best medium for a part such as wing stands, but it can be done.
I played with different methods and came up with one that worked. Not exactly the way I'd like, but it worked. This is called research and development. It took my time energy and money. I decided that if people wanted to raise their wings, the molds should be able to produce any size they wanted, instead of making a different mold for each size. This is part of the hassle of making them. One mold to produce multiple sizes, was another challenge, but I did figure it out. So I started making wing stands. They originally sold for $90-$115, dependant on the size. These were designed to mount the same way as the factory stands and use the factory gaskets, which in my opinion, leave allot to be desired, but again, it would work. Not exceptionally, but it WOULD work. I had to come up with a way to duplicate the factory mounting system that included two different locations for the rear stud, as they chose to make it different on the fast back and the notch back. I ended up making the bottom plate a separate mold and set T nuts in all three locations before it got grafted into the column of the stands. This is one step that made the production more time consuming and laborious. I could have just made the bottom glass and let the end user drill his own holes and use whatever he wanted to mount them, but I wanted to make them "user friendly", so came up with the method described. At the original price, I was having a hard time keeping up with the demand. Granted it would stop eventually, as sooner or later everyone that wanted them would have them. As has been mentioned, the Fireo market is limited to say the least. After 60 sets or so, I decided I really didn't want to spend all my time making wing stands, so I raised the price to $185, thinking that not many would want them at that price. I was wrong. It did cut down the demand somewhat, but people kept ordering them, and I was again spending my time making wing stands. Now this sounds like a good thing right? I guess if wanted to do just one thing, it would be, but I wanted to do more that that. I had proved to myself that I could do it, after that it became routine, which I tend to shy away from. Considering the amount of time and effort required to make a set the $185 price was more than reasonalbe to me, and I guess more than a few other folks too, but it didn't free me up to do other things. So I have been toying with the idea of stopping production on them for quite some time. So, Nebiros, you're comments and discourse with Doug, had very little to do with my decision, in your own words, "Get over yourself". You are not the only one to comment on the price. There have been more than I care to count or remember that were outraged that I would have the unmittigated gall to charge $185 for $30 worth of materials! If you've paid attention over the last couple years, there have been threads here on this very subject. The reason I made the statement above is to see if you realize what goes into making these things. Essentially, you are right, there's not much in the way of materials involved, that's NOT what you are paying for. If you or anybody else wants to produce them for material costs alone, I'll send everybody who wants wing stands from me to you.
The new style stands were priced lower because they are a dedicated length and the separate bottom plate mold was eliminated, and no T nuts to install, making them a little faster to produce.
I have no problem with you. I think you come across as inteligent, articulate and 19. I was 19 once too. One's perspective tends to change as you get older. That's not a cut, it's just the way life works. I can't speak for Doug, and I don't have any idea why he pm'd you with that, everybody's human and therefore subject to error, not that his action constitutes error, but I have no knowledge of it and you will have to take it up with him. I stayed out of the other thread with you and him and Jim, cause I thought it was totally uncalled for on everybody's part. I'm not joined at the hip with anybody. I just don't want to make wing stands anymore.
I am working on setting up a friend of mine who has helped me in the past with the glass work, so he can make them. He is retired and looking for something to do for extra money at home. This would suit his purpose and mine and keep the stands available to those who want them. Not a sure thing, but he has expressed an interest when I mentioned it to him. Aside from that working out, I may make a set now and then and put them on ebay, or offer them through Doug, but not as a "can order" item.
As for my "people skills", I've not run into too many folks in my life that I couldn't get along with, if necessarry, there's just some that I try to avoid. Usually ones with ego's or mouths bigger than their brain. I worked in retail for a number of years and came to the conclusion, there's allot of azzholes loose in the world. On the other hand as I've said before, everybody's an azzhole to somebody, it's just some are azzholes to everybody! I like Snoopy's take on things, you know, the little beagle dog from the Peanuts cartoon, Snoopy says, "I love mankind, it's people I can't stand!"
So think what you want, do what you want, but don't think you influenced my decision to stop making wing stands. IF he remembers, I told Archie at Dale Starchers' cookout a couple years ago, that I didn't want to make them anymore, that I was going to raise the price to curb orders and he just laughed, that was a good time at Dales, point is Archie who is well known and respected in the Fiero community, the kit car community, the hot rod community and this board, can verify what I'm saying, IF he remembers. I don't remember what number brew he was working on while we were talking. He might not even remember me, or being there for that matter! (J/K) To jog his memory, he had the stinger there and was giving rides to people. Please don't try to turn this around and say I'm dragging an innocent bystander into it, I mentioned it because I remember specifically telling him about wanting to quit making the stands, whether, he remembers or not is probably irrelevant.
That's an overview of the situation as I see it, and it's bout time to end this novel. I'm glad you came forward and at least owned up to making the statement referenced, now can we just put it behind us and get on with things that are important?
If you wanna make wing stands and can do it as cheap as you claimed it can be done and as good as they have to be, I'll send everybody to you.
quote
Well said,Tedd!
Thanks Hugh, from you, that means allot!
To anybody that acually read all of this, congratulations, you just killed enough brain cells to have downed at least a 12pack!
Have a good one!
IP: Logged
08:31 PM
PFF
System Bot
007DOUG Member
Posts: 1280 From: Wheeling, WV 26003 Registered: Feb 2000
Originally posted by Nebiros88:this is a problem between me and Doug & Sage, that they decided to make public.
Whatever the problem is, its with me, not sage. And YOU alone just made this public. Apparently, you think I sent a PM about wing stands just to you? I sent a PM to anyone that ever claimed they could make wing stands. Although I recall your complaint about stands the most. It made me laugh. If I missed PM'in somebody about wing stands, sorry, here's your opportunity to make them! You'll be the only person in the world.
