Well I need to ask the pros and cons of both these swaps as I already have a 3800sc motor but have stunbled on a complete front cut for a late model Caddy SLS with a low mileage 4.6 litre Northstar. I can get the front cut for $3000 AU and am seriously considering it. What are the pros and cons of each swap. 3800sc with Fiero 4 speed manual versus Caddy N* with caddy 4 speed auto. Bearing in mind that I will have the whole mechanical side of the caddy to work with.

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caddy engine is gonna require modifying your cradle a good bit.

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1988 Aero 88 coupe.. 2.8l v6.. more mods to come.
Photo Gallery - Fiero Links - WebShop

From what I've heard, a nice 3800 series SC will hand any N* @$$ to itself on a silver platter with all the trim. Not that either of them are bad swaps, but from what people are telling me overall: The 3.8 will smash N* every time. But thats just what I'm hearing.... If you've got the $$$, hell...DO BOTH!!! -Ben

I'd say if you've already got the 3800, invest the cash in it...you could build a helluva car for that...

When in doubt, go with the V6, unless your tiddlywink is small then go with the V8

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http://www.gmpcm.com/

With $1200 worth of work to the 3800, you can easily push 400+ hp, while making the engine sound like its a built big block v8. (Lopey Idle)

quote Originally posted by 1985FieroGT: With $1200 worth of work to the 3800, you can easily push 400+ hp, while making the engine sound like its a built big block v8. (Lopey Idle)

I am not interested in building either engine. I have strict emmissions and decibel testing to pass and I am looking for reliability more than anything. Either engine will have more than enough HP stock but it is the Fiero trans that worries me where reliability is concerned.

Just after the pros and cons of either swap and what issues people have had with either.

quote Originally posted by HoMiE_TeLeFrAgGeD: From what I've heard, a nice 3800 series SC will hand any N* @$$ to itself on a silver platter with all the trim. Not that either of them are bad swaps, but from what people are telling me overall: The 3.8 will smash N* every time. But thats just what I'm hearing.... If you've got the $$$, hell...DO BOTH!!! -Ben

i hope you don't mean stock for stock, cuz then i'll have to tell you you are crazy... will ran a 12.8 1/4 mile with a stock N*, and the fastest 3800 SC stock i've ever heard is 13.3 or so.

back onto topic. if you have the LD8 N*, (which is the torque happy engine) then you'll have similar low end power, but the N* will make a lot more high end. (stock for stock) In all honesty though, and i don't say this to be offencive, but i think that a 3.8 with an open exhaust sounds horrible. i hate the way it sounds... now the N* on the other hand sounds wonderful. but that's all opinion. as far as swapping, the N* might be harder to put in, but you can buy a stand alone engine management so you don't have to do wiring on a N*.

i say N* myself, and don't listen to anyone who says that a N* is a wind up motor. i have torque curves on both motors and the N* is by no means a wind up motor. it's no small block, but at 2K RPM's it's making in the neighborhood of 275 FT LBs of torque and it looks like a 3.8 S/C is making about 265 @ 2K.

PM or Email me if you want and i'll send you the Dynos

-Fish

IMO, the 3.8sc is the worst sounding engine ever made (From the outside at WOT)! Though, the supercharger does lend some charm.

I love the N* nothing bad I could say about it.

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quote Originally posted by 87FieroGTx: IMO, the 3.8sc is the worst sounding engine ever made (From the outside at WOT)! Though, the supercharger does lend some charm. I love the N* nothing bad I could say about it.

i'm glad i'm not the only one that thinks this. although, my moms 3800 N/A sounds pretty good from the inside, but then again you can BARELY hear it til 3500 RPM.

sorry for anyone that likes the way it sounds but i just don't like anything about it (from the outside at least).

-Fish

I have yet to see a northstar in a fiero do this www.fieroX.com/race6.mov <supercharged

or this www.fieroX.com/turbodyno2.wmv <turbocharged

There is no question that a well installed N* engine and drive train will give far better reliability than any other motor installed on the Fiero factory transaxle. It will be stronger and oil leak free.

I have a 3.4LDOHC V6 mounted to a 1987 Fiero 5 speed transaxle. I cannot fully enjoy the power that my 3.4LDOHC can produce as I am always afraid that something in the driveline will break. I wish I had the time to remove the 3.4L to sell and get an N*.

I have seen many engines installed over the past 18 years. There is nothing that sounds better than a V8. Now with today’s FWD V8's available there is no better way to go. There is a little extra cost involved with an N* but it is worth it.

Good luck with your decision.

[This message has been edited by Chris Schaefer (edited 08-14-2004).]

If money is no object then I say go with the N*. In my opinion, and I admit I'm old school, there is no substitute for cubes, (or liters) The N* will sound better, (IMO) and it will look better (again IMO). So if it were my decision under the condition your described I would go with the N*.

X, what the heck does your first post have to do with anything? Stock for stock, and I have yet to see a stock 3.8l S2 S/C break into the 12's. I like both motors, but I needed to point out that your first post makes no sense and has no application... Never seen a Northstar backfire either.

quote Originally posted by HoMiE_TeLeFrAgGeD: Blah Blah Blah ...I have no idea what Im talking about

I hate these threads.. there useless.

You will get everyone arguing as to which is best and why. People will start quoting Fierox's times and say he didn't have much work done to it. Most of these people will never have been in either car and just spout BS from other forum members ,cobblign together pasty posts in an attempt to look intelligent.

What do you want from the swap when your done?? This is the main question.

I myself like a high revving multi cam engine. Great linear powerband , revs to 7800rpm with cams and springs and that V8 sound.

Do whatever swap suits your driving Style best. There is no 1 engine that we can all agree on.

Northstar will yield 12's in stock trim , the reason it's going to get based int his thread is because no one has developed one to it's full potential. The northstar has become cheaper and the database of owners is growing at a rapid rate. The electronics are harder than most , but I can tell you if you go aftermarket it will take less than a day to wire up (thats all it took me)

Nont as easy as a 3.8SC and a little more expensive...but Damm that V8 sounds good and with people like Chris moore who have put 70,000 miles on his conversion and never had the motor out , you know it's reliable...

JM

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JM / SH

Cookin MC's like a pound of Bacon

[This message has been edited by The Punisher (edited 08-14-2004).]

STOCK vs. STOCK, its a VERY tuff choice. A stock 3800 on a manual trans which Aus is going to use should net low 13's easily. Now, for just 100-150 for a pulley swap you will have a 12 sec car. but I don't think Aus is TOO concerned with 1/4 mile acceleration. The SC3800 I admit does have an exhaust that takes some getting used too. You just need to get the right muffler. SKITIMES sounds great in my opinion. But then you also get the blower noise. If you want a quiet, calm, and mannerly motor, the SC3800 is not the way to go. Its the Heavy Metal music of the engine swaps. Loud and rowdy.
The N* with the 4T80 which Aus stated he would used, when compared to a SC3800 with manual trans will weigh in ALOT more. The N8 will crush a SC3800 from 50-80 stock for stock. but the SC3800 will crush a N* from 0-60. Its all in preference. Both should pass emissions easily.
Maintenance would be easier on the SC3800, simple pushrod design and you cn get to the spark plugs and oil dipsticks easily, easier then a 2.8.

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USED to be NOS3800
1988 Purple Fiero GTw/SC3800 conversion
Best ET with 3.0 pulley and 1.9 rockers: 12.74@105mph
Best 60 Foot: 1.735

quote Originally posted by SOULCRUSHER: STOCK vs. STOCK, its a VERY tuff choice. A stock 3800 on a manual trans which Aus is going to use should net low 13's easily. Now, for just 100-150 for a pulley swap you will have a 12 sec car. but I don't think Aus is TOO concerned with 1/4 mile acceleration. The SC3800 I admit does have an exhaust that takes some getting used too. You just need to get the right muffler. SKITIMES sounds great in my opinion. But then you also get the blower noise. If you want a quiet, calm, and mannerly motor, the SC3800 is not the way to go. Its the Heavy Metal music of the engine swaps. Loud and rowdy. The N* with the 4T80 which Aus stated he would used, when compared to a SC3800 with manual trans will weigh in ALOT more. The N8 will crush a SC3800 from 50-80 stock for stock. but the SC3800 will crush a N* from 0-60. Its all in preference. Both should pass emissions easily. Maintenance would be easier on the SC3800, simple pushrod design and you cn get to the spark plugs and oil dipsticks easily, easier then a 2.8.

GOOD POST!!!

JM

Punisher, is that you in your sig movie?

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Thanks Aus!
More info at: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/043357.html

What I like in my cars:

1. Sound. (I love high revving engines that aren't 4-cylinders)
2. Performance. (200+hp is a must for me)
3. Reliability.

I chose the northstar. If you do go for it, try to hear it run if possible... And check the half-case seals, these engines love to leak from there.

3.8 L V-6 supercharged=240 h.p./300 ft. torq.
VS.
300 @ 6000 rpm (L37) northstar
295 @ 4400 rpm
6700 rpm redline

Both have not so easy wiring issues, the only mod. that needs to be done on the Northstar is remove and then replace the front cross memeber. Other than that they are both a good way to go, the Northstar has a great sound to it and is a better designed motor when it taken care of if you ask my.

As far as the guy that said a 3800SC will hand of a N* ass, you have no idea what your talking about. Go to CHRFab and they have several way to add horsepower just like there are a few ways to do it to the 3800SC, but then again both upgrades cost and it doesn't really matter because the guy that started the thread is looking for a stock motor swap debate.

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Bobby from NW Indiana
86 Fiero GT, Looking to ad a 93 Northstar soon
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net

go with the northstar.... an all aluminum 32 valve v8 is an exotic thing.... pushrod iron is no turn on in this game anymore at all.

The 3800 Series 2 supercharged is only 280 lb-ft of torque, not 300.

quote Originally posted by Bigfieroman: Punisher, is that you in your sig movie?

Hells no!!! The punisher is comprised of 2 skinny white guys.. not some G-money Home skillet.

JM

Decisions decisions. There is some very interesting comparisons here and yes I am looking at stock V stock. Quarter times are anot really that important to me. Handling is. Reliability is. Plus the decibel testing is a pain but I have to stay under 90 Db while stationary and reving to 3000 rpm.
Just a couple of questions. What is the Northstar weight with trans compared to the 3800sc with Fiero trans? Approximately. Does the front crossmember have to be moved on an 86 cradle in the Northstar swap? Do you Northstar owners feel the extra weight when cornering? I will be using Intrax lowering coils and KYB gas struts.
Wiring wise I am not real concerned about. If I use the 3800sc I will use a local Holden 3800sc ecm so it passes local emmissions. If I use the Northstar I will go to an Autronic aftermarket ECM to get rid of the Northstar wiring issues.

this is for the northstar swap

from what i was able to tell, you can leave the front crossmember in place if you don't mind the trade off of modifiing the oil pan by removing and sealing off the oil level sensor boss. then you would have to use a remote oil filter adaptor. you would have to make a/c compressor mounts to raise the compressor up slightly. you would also have some difficulty routing the exhaust below the oil pan near the drivers side of the engine. I think that most of us choose to move the crossmember forward. i have an oil pan on its way here to examine the possiblitlies of modifications.

not the greatest pic, hopefully it will help some...

[This message has been edited by cptsnoopy (edited 08-14-2004).]

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Well I need to ask the pros and cons of both these swaps as I already have a 3800sc motor but have stunbled on a complete front cut for a late model Caddy SLS with a low mileage 4.6 litre Northstar. I can get the front cut for $3000 AU and am seriously considering it. What are the pros and cons of each swap. 3800sc with Fiero 4 speed manual versus Caddy N* with caddy 4 speed auto. Bearing in mind that I will have the whole mechanical side of the caddy to work with.

Speaking from experience, having (2) N*'s for it comes down to three things.
1. Money.
2. Reliability.
3. Appearance

You said there is a low milage N* with 4 speed auto, right? Low mileage should equal reliability in most cases. My 275 N* is reliabile and I have driven it nearly everywhere in the US and passes the strict smog laws in CA. At or near 100,000 miles just change the plugs, wires and radiator fluid. The N* sounds great & the install looks great! If money is no option...then go for it. The only down-side to having a N* is the water pump. With high mileage motors, it's gonna go out....someday.

On the other hand, I have no experience on 3800SC only from what I have seen and heard. I wouldn't mind having either one.

I agree with Mad, to answer the front cross memeber question, not that I have got that far yet but I have been told it needs to be moved if the stock exhaust is used and you don't use an oil filter relocation kit. So yes it needs to be moved unless you are good at welding up header sets, and if you are make a few sets and sell them!?!?!?!?

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Bobby from NW Indiana
86 Fiero GT, Looking to ad a 93 Northstar soon
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net

So if I cut the bottom of the trunk out and put the exhaust there the front crossmember can stay if I use a relocation kit?
Luggage space isn't an issue either as it is a Sunday driver only.

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As asked above, could somebody post the weights of these 2 engines without the trannies?

I would expect the S/C3800 to weigh in at 100lbs or more than the Northstar, given it uses iron block and heads. And that S/C doesn't look light....

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3 car lengths in front of you and still pulling...

Northstar wins by K.O.

Show me a 350 or 3800 that look that good.

Heres Chrfabs 3300 Whipple S/C'd N*

[This message has been edited by Lex (edited 08-15-2004).]

** EDIT*** Lex - for the money that that N* would cost you could have one heckuva 3800. ***

The engine weight will be more than wiped out by the huge auto tranny with the N*.

For daily driving the 3800 s/c is nice. It is powerful and moves the car right along. However is is really deceiving because if you treat it like a 2.8, you're speeding merrily along quite unaware of just how fast you are going, and how quickly you got there.

I was amused by the sound comments. FIEROFLYER showed up with a new exhaust systen (sans cat). I think it's nice in the car, but outside it's loud...... picture that your new neighbour is Dale Earnhardt Jr. and he has modified his John Deere lawn tractor. Dan will kill me for that one.

Here in Ontario you are likely emissions tested as a 'hot rod' (basically motor not originally offered in car). Evidently with hot rod status you do not need to run a cat if your car will pass a roadside emissions test. The 3800 is so clean, it does this easily. The downside is that the police don't seem to know this technicality, and are apt to bother you if you are stopped and a visual inspection reveals no cat.

The N* is likely to cost more to install, but sounds terrific.

Given your choice, Aus, I would go with the standard tranny as it's a fun car. If it was your daily in traffic machine, maybe the autobox.

[This message has been edited by FieroBUZZ (edited 08-15-2004).]

quote Originally posted by banditbalz: As asked above, could somebody post the weights of these 2 engines without the trannies? I would expect the S/C3800 to weigh in at 100lbs or more than the Northstar, given it uses iron block and heads. And that S/C doesn't look light....

The 3800SC (L67) is 90Lbs heavier than the stock 2.8. I can't answer what the N* weighs.

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www.fieroexcitement.com
www.azfieros.com
AzFieros Phoenix Area Event Coordinator / Webmaster

"You can run, but you'll just die tired!"

quote Originally posted by FieroBUZZ: ** EDIT*** Lex - for the money that that N* would cost you could have one heckuva 3800. ***

Oh, I know. Hell I would probably have to go with the a 350 or 3800 over the N* for just that reason. But it is so shiny and pretty......

The trunk and the front cross memeber have nothing to do with each other, it the exhaust manifold coming off the motor and the running under the oil pan is where the front cross memeber gets in the way. The bottom of the trunk is also going to be removed if you us the stock Y pipe the is connected to the two manifolds only due to the fact that, that is just where it comes away from the motor. Understand, you cutting the front cross memeber off is not that big of a deal, unless you cannot weld or don't even know anybody that can?

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Bobby from NW Indiana
86 Fiero GT, Looking to ad a 93 Northstar soon
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net

I talked to the company last week. They told me to drop by and see if a a twin turbo can be hook'd-up.

madcurl, all I can say is WOW, take a camera!!!!

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Bobby from NW Indiana
86 Fiero GT, Looking to ad a 93 Northstar soon
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net