Wanted to share the times of an impressive 84 SE "sleeper" that raced at the WheatStock Drags today. The times were witnessed by multiple forum members and I captured his best run on video. The owner is not a forum member yet but he said he would join soon.

Details:

Owner: Ralph Degenhardt ( works as a transmission mechanic)
Location: Heartland Park Raceway , Topeka, KS
Date: 6/26/2004

Car: 84 SE Notchback
Engine: 4.3 V6 with cam, Vortex heads, 500CFM Carter AFB carb, homebuilt 1.5" headers
Trans: 4T40 with 2100 stall, modified clutch packs, 3.06 Final drive
Tires: 215/60R-14 Street Tires ( Mud and Snow rating...NO KIDDING)

Performance:

ET: 12.504
MPH: 107.94
60' 1.783 sec.

Car was very plain looking but ran exceptionally well...

This car is Naturally Aspirated....!
NO nitrous, turbo, blower, or even racing gas. He drives this thing on the street almost daily.

His performance makes him the quickest and fastest naturally aspirated V6 Fiero that anyone has reported. There isn't another naturally aspirated V6 that is anywhere close to these times and speed.(12.50 vs.13.80's....)

Kerry

what other mods to the engine?? is it just stock with vortec heads and cam?

The engine was described as having very little modification...

Flat top stock pistons and rods.
The cam was a Crower. (He couldn't remember the specs.)
Shortblock was i believe a pre 96 block with post 96 Vortex heads ( unported).
The intake manifold was an aftermarket dual plane that had been modified to match up with the Vortex heads. He indicatred that the head swap was worth .4 sec.
Distributor was an Accel HEI.
The headers were open during the track runs and were wrapped with heat wrap.
The radiator was mounted in the REAR after the trunk was cut out.

He HAD spent time taking weight out of the car by removing anything that was not necessary. He had a piece of plexiglass replacing the sunroof and the passenger rear view mirror was removed. He also had lightened the doors by removing a portion of the cross bar supports.

Amazingly the engine looked like a lighly modified street engine.

You wouldn't look twice at the car on the street...just another red 84 SE...BUT...at the track, it impressed everyone who saw it ...

Kerry

16.8 all day long for me.. Over and over and over..
Not to bad for a stock 2.8 with only a K&N, MSD coil, taylor wires, Radney Cat..
I Almost pushed the pedal thought the floor.. but thats going to be toady at the road track!! ( I'm going to kill the Engine, Its my task! )

We all had some really good numbers, Even if we were up against some top fuels, and rail cars!! LOL Nothing like watching a 9 second car blow off the line with you just trying to go.. LOL

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Ferrari 308 GTB rebody on a modified 86SE chasis Soon to have a highly hooped up 3800SC..Ohh yeah baby!!
Contacts _ AIM / Zildjianfx _ Yahoo / djdraggin
Remember, always brush your milk, drink your teeth, dont do sleep and get eight hours of drugs.

WOW. Impressive numbers. Imagine how it would go with a turbo 4.3.

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Those numbers don't surprise me, the 4.3 is a pretty stout engine, just has a few parts on it that suck in stock form. Would be great if he joined the Forum to give tips to members doing future engine conversions.

On a side note: Personally I'd never remove the door side impact beams and drive on the street. They are a big factor in the crash integrity of the Fiero, doesn't matter what angle you get hit from.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by California Kid: On a side note: Personally I'd never remove the door side impact beams and drive on the street. They are a big factor in the crash integrity of the Fiero, doesn't matter what angle you get hit from.

Amen...

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86gt Custom with Firebird Interior

Avid Fiero Enthusiast,
Daniel Caddell
If you think i am doing a great job please give me a positive

How can a mildly modified 4.3 go mid 12s when Cali's car does 12.2 with an extra pair of pistons and being fairly warmed over?

Impressive to say the least, even Mr.Pat's LT1 is running low 13s.

Good time for V6, but I have seen faster V6 Fiero's in the past. With the new cars and new engines available for swap, if you can't make the 12's in a 2600 pound car it better be because of wheel spin. Most 3800 SC can go 11's with minor work, many new 04 GP's can do 12's with a new PCM, rockers pulley at 1000 pounds more [3500]. Some are seeing high 11's

Now a 4.3 in the low 11's that would be something.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 06-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by crzyone: How can a mildly modified 4.3 go mid 12s when Cali's car does 12.2 with an extra pair of pistons and being fairly warmed over? Impressive to say the least, even Mr.Pat's LT1 is running low 13s.

With the car as light as it is and the engine putting out good power the power to weight ratio is what is making this possible Cali's car is in stock street trim and much heavier also taking out the reinforcement is good for track car but not street drivers.

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: With the car as light as it is and the engine putting out good power the power to weight ratio is what is making this possible Cali's car is in stock street trim and much heavier also taking out the reinforcement is good for track car but not street drivers.

As you stated, but I never got serious about running a real quick 1/4, the car was never dialed in for running it, road course alignment puts a lot of rolling resistance you'd rather not have, didn't play with tire pressure, adjustments to Koni front or rear, etc, etc. It's only been to a quarter mile track twice in it's life, and that was just for fun, my car isn't about 1/4 Mile. Believe me, 12.2 is fast enough for the street !!!

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-27-2004).]

hey Kerry just imagine the numbers that would be possible if he just bolted up a v8 instead of the v6 . Just curios is he using a v8 archie kit? If he built it to go fast he should of used a v8, but its cool to do something different. Hey maybe with some slicks and a shot of nitrous he can get in the elevens. The turbo idea is cool, but with all that extra room slap a paxton novi supercharger on that sucker ! Anyway tell your friend congrats and make plans for a rollbar.

my V8 car used to be owned by travis AKA 1fst2m6 back when it was a 2.8 the bottom end was stock a little head work and intake porting and it ran 12.2 in the 1/4 with N2O and 13.8 no bottle

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: Good time for V6, but I have seen faster V6 Fiero's in the past. With the new cars and new engines available for swap, if you can't make the 12's in a 2600 pound car it better be because of wheel spin. Most 3800 SC can go 11's with minor work

I'm from Missouri...SHOW ME a quicker ET and faster trap speed for another NA V6 Fiero street car...!

The Pennock 1/4 mile thread has been active for nearly two years. In that time, no one has posted a time for a naturally aspirated V6, quicker than 13.8 sec ET, and certainly no one with a trap speed within 10 MPH of 108. If you have personally witnessed another NA V6 run quicker than 12.5 sec and faster than 108 mph in the 1/4....please share the details with the rest of us.

There were numerous 3800SCs that ran during the same time trials as this 4.3. Most, (running a supercharger) were slower than 12.5. The noteworthy exceptions were the turbocharged 3800 of Fiero X at 12.10 and the supercharged kit car of Don Krause with I believe a 11.5 or 11.7 ET. Again, these were not naturally aspirated 3800's and Don was running some tall / wide treaded slicks. Ask either of these owners how munch time, money, modification, and effort it took to initially reach the mid 12's with their cars...

The naturally aspirated 4.3 reported was on narrow 215 mud and snow 14" street tires...!
Although, the car had some lightening done...this was NOT a single purpose race car. It was a very basic street car that happens to be quicker and faster by a wide margin than any other NA V6 reported to date.

Again...please provide details on all of these fast naturally aspirated V6's of which you have personal knowledge. Owners names and car descriptions for just a start...otherwise it is all hearsay. If it runs nitrous, turbo or SC...it is not relavant for comparison.

As someone who has been personally involved in professional drag racing, and who knows how hard it can be to go fast with very limited modifcations...this car's performance impressed the Hell out of me...

Yes...power to weight is a factor. But the owner indicated the car still weighed approximately 2550 with him in the car, ready to race. That is not appreciably lighter than a stock 84 SE.

On my old 524 lb FunnyBike, every 24 lbs removed was worth approximately .1 sec reduction in ET. That was on a turbocharged single stage nitrous, 1327cc ( 80 cu. in.) 4 cylinder making 386HP and running an 11" wide car slick. On a street car weighing 2550 lbs and making 300-330 HP, running stock street tires, it would take a MAJOR weight reduction to go from 13.8 to 12.5. This car was simply putting more power to the ground than his combination of engine , transmission, vehicle weight, tire selection and level of modification would normally suggest.

(I also agree with others that removing the door reinforcement bars in the doors was NOT a wise move.)

Kerry

i bet hes got the shell of a 4.3 but its really a jet engine!!!!

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'86 Fiero GT

www.KylesFiero.tk www.XoticRydz.tk

The adapter was not from Archie.

The owner made the adapter himself out of 5/8" plate, using a drill press and bandsaw. The headers were made from mandrel bent tubing from JC Whitney that he cut with a chop saw and welded together with a wire welder. The exaust flanges were cut by hand.

A toolroom machinist and a certified welder he isn't...but he deserves a lot of respect for what he accomplished with minimal budget and resources.

The axles and rear spindles apparently came from a junkjard Citation...he wasn't sure.

Again, this was all homebuilt on a shoestring budget by the owner, without use of a lathe or mill, which made his performance all the more respectable.

Kerry

That guy must be skinny like me. That could shave of a few 10ths. 135 lb driver vs. 185 lb driver in the same car. Guess who has the better times?

I wondered what the hell that thing was, it didn’t sound like most V6s it had that SBC sound to it, but you knew it wasn’t an 8.

I overheard someone over by Archie (last name unknown) say something about it being my car.
And then someone from MY club say something like that right after that.
So I stood up and said, “it better not be my car.”
Everyone had a quick laugh and then went straight to chattering to each other about how stupid fast this red coupe was.

Today I was told that there wasn’t anything under the front hood, the trunk was removed and the radiator was in the back. but I didn’t get to see it.

Red 84s rule!

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Buddy - there are two "G"s in my name
Ling = 84SE-350-N2O(off line)-Poly-Mr.Mike seats-Sequential turn signals-short shifter
Julia C = 85GT stock (kinda)
Ivy = 67 Pontiac Catalina
KCFOG

I'm sure someone will correct me but...doesn't the 4.3 come stock with around 200HP?

quote Originally posted by tony78ta: That guy must be skinny like me. That could shave of a few 10ths. 135 lb driver vs. 185 lb driver in the same car. Guess who has the better times?

one 10th for every 100lbs, so that would only drop it 0.050 in time

I don't want to down play what you have, a 4.3 in a Fiero is not common and 12.50 is a good time I just feel it could be better yet. You also may claim the best natural asp V6 but! I know of and can list in publications engines 4 and 6 cyl with less liters running as fast of faster. I believe 4.3 liters should be capable of more than 12.50 in the 1/4 mile in a 2500 pound car.

#1 Hot Rod May 2001 Page 84 3.8 liter SC rated 222hp at the wheel at 3800 RPM Running 12.50. He had and a pulley nothing else. This car was diven in the Power Tour 2000 far from a race car. This set up at that time was at 25,000 miles on the car

#2 Penn Jersey Fiero club News letter #6 Dec 1993 Ron Myers out of PA had a 1987GT. Yes he had a turbo and NOS but he only used 3.1 liters to get a 12.48 at Quaker City Dragway at 1000 FT. I have seen this car a various national events over the years and it was drive to all of them 300-500 miles+. It was featured in Car Craft and Turbo magazine. If you don't lift the trunk lid you would just think it was a stock GT. Ron has since sold the car but I am sure it is still around. The artical has his phone# I could send it along and he may be ble to tell you where it is today.

#3 Fiero Owner 1-2 QT 1991 I lost track of this car but at the time all natural 2.7 liter SD 4 ran 12.96 in a full body street car on street tires. I met Csaba at 4 national events he really knew his SD4 stuff.

and just for liter compare.

#4 Hot Rod March 1999 page 74 John Norman with a 4.6 Northstar ran 11.2 114.3 MPH with out NOS, he did add it later. Rear wheel HP 267.2 at 6,000 RPM. This was also a street car on street tires. I have seen it many times and I was last tols he still has it in Indiana. He reprogramed the computer and cleaned up the heads on this engine. Not may parts were available when he built it. Keep in mind it is only 4.6 liters

I have seen many other potent small displacment cars but these are just the first ones I found in publications that anyone can look up.

I guess the point I am making is as large as the 4.3 is as light as the car is it could be faster. It is great you picked an engine that not may people work with. It is a great engine that was race in USAC with many wins. It may be the best natural V6 but there is alot more there to gain and still keep it streetable.

I also have an extensive Racing background and work for one of the largest retailers of High performance parts. My Freinds and I have drag raced and autocrossed. I know what it takes to go quick, I have helped wrench on a 10.90 Firebird that if you take the slicks off it is 100% streetable. No SC or NOS just 468 CID Pontiac.

Also check out Club GP.com take a look at what these guys are doing with 3800SC on 3500 pound cars. Most do not have NOS and are in the 13's. I have seen a few post of 12's. Take that GP engine that ran a 13 flate lose 1000 pounds in a Fiero, good combo.
Those with NOS are 11's though the front wheels but these are not daily drivers. I even have seen a full bodied Bonnie run 11.70's. It is neat to see what they can do with just a little work.

Please I don't mean to slight you in anyway, if anything I hope you keep working on you combo. I feel you should be able to see a streetable low 12 or high 11 out of you set up. The only down side is that speed costs money.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 06-27-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Kerry: Although, the car had some lightening done...this was NOT a single purpose race car. It was a very basic street car that happens to be quicker and faster by a wide margin than any other NA V6 reported to date. Kerry

Definately not knocking the car or the owner but with nothing up front, the trunk removed, glass and reinforcement metal removed, how can you say it is not a "purpose-built" race car? What other reason would you have for getting rid of DOT approved safety equipment?

According to the HP calculator at http://www.speedworldmotorplex.com/calc.htm this car could run a 12.50 with only 290hp if it weighed 2400lbs. Not hard to get 300hp out of a 4.3 and with as stripped down as the car sounds, I don't see why this person couldn't have removed 400+lbs from the weight of the car.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: I don't want to down play what you have, .... but! I know of and can list in publications engines 4 and 6 cyl with less liters running as fast of faster. I believe 4.3 liters should be capable of more than 12.50 in the 1/4 mile in a 2500 pound car. #1 Hot Rod May 2001 Page 84 3.8 liter SC rated 222hp at the wheel at 3800 RPM Running 12.50. #2 Penn Jersey Fiero club News letter #6 Dec 1993 Ron Myers out of PA had a 1987GT. Yes he had a turbo and NOS but he only used 3.1 liters to get a 12.48 at Quaker City Dragway at 1000 FT. #3 Fiero Owner 1-2 QT 1991 I lost track of this car but at the time all natural 2.7 liter SD 4 ran 12.96 in a full body street car on street tires. I met Csaba at 4 national events he really knew his SD4 stuff. and just for liter compare. #4 Hot Rod March 1999 page 74 John Norman with a 4.6 Northstar ran 11.2 114.3 MPH with out NOS, he did add it later. Rear wheel HP 267.2 at 6,000 RPM. This was also a street car on street tires. I have seen it many times and I was last tols he still has it in Indiana. He reprogramed the computer and cleaned up the heads on this engine. Not may parts were available when he built it. Keep in mind it is only 4.6 liters I have seen many other potent small displacment cars but these are just the first ones I found in publications that anyone can look up. I guess the point I am making is as large as the 4.3 is as light as the car is it could be faster. It is great you picked an engine that not may people work with. It is a great engine that was race in USAC with many wins. It may be the best natural V6 but there is alot more there to gain and still keep it streetable. I also have an extensive Racing background and work for one of the largest retailers of High performance parts. My Freinds and I have drag raced and autocrossed. I know what it takes to go quick, I have helped wrench on a 10.90 Firebird that if you take the slicks off it is 100% streetable. No SC or NOS just 468 CID Pontiac. Also check out Club GP.com take a look at what these guys are doing with 3800SC on 3500 pound cars. Most do not have NOS and are in the 13's. I have seen a few post of 12's. Take that GP engine that ran a 13 flate lose 1000 pounds in a Fiero, good combo. Those with NOS are 11's though the front wheels but these are not daily drivers. I even have seen a full bodied Bonnie run 11.70's. It is neat to see what they can do with just a little work. Please I don't mean to slight you in anyway, if anything I hope you keep working on you combo. I feel you should be able to see a streetable low 12 or high 11 out of you set up. The only down side is that speed costs money.

HyperV6....

You may be a nice guy, so I will try to remain civil...

Try rereading my original post. The 4.3 Fiero is NOT my car. .!
As I clearly stated, It belongs to a gentleman who lives in Topeka who impressed me with what he had accomplished with such limited budget, modifications and resources.

I just love Hot Rod and Car Craft " experts" who can quote passage and scripture of every magazine article they have ever read, as if the printed word must be gospel...

You then counter with supercharged, turbocharged or nitrous examples... when my point was SPECIFICALLY about a naturally aspirated engine.

You even throw in times for comparison of a TURBOCHARGED 3.1 at a 1000 ft track and follow up with more SUPERCHARGED 3800 13 sec. ETs...?

All but the Super Duty 4 are invalid comparisons as the subject being discussed was NATURALLY ASPIRATED...!

And Csaba's car was certainly no shoestring budget street car. His engine had every racing part offered by Pontiac for that engine, including a professionally ported head, done by Airflow Research. As a national magazine editor, his budget to build that car was many times greater than that of a Topeka transmission mechanic.

This was not a post about "How Much HP Can Be Generated Per Cubic Inch...With UNLIMITED Funds"

This was a post about a builder and car that exhibited impressive performance that was noteworthy because of HOW LITTLE had been done to achieve mid 12's.

There is no question that with unlimited funds and extensive modifications that better performance could be obtained...but you missed ...or ignored my point.

This car was noteworthy because Mr. Degenhardt spent less money on his entire CAR...than John Norman spent on his PAINT...!

With cubic dollars... ANYBODY can go fast.
Not many can go fast on a shoestring....and with a combination that is rarely seen. THAT is why this 4.3 Fiero was impressive.

He didn't buy a "kit"...
He didn't resort to a high tech, high RPM, four valve overhead cam engine...
He didn't build a clone of a magazine " project car" where all the decisions were made by self appointed experts...
He didn't go to a web site to let someone elso do the time consuming development work of soring out what does or does not work...

What he did was design, build, troubleshoot, and tune an impressive pushrod engine combination without outside assistance. He worked out the problems, fabricated the parts needed, put a street car solidly into the 12's...and did it for peanuts...!
THAT'S what prompted me to share his success with the forum.

There should be more of his type in this sport ....instead of the " paint by the numbers experts" who can't make an automotive decision on their own, without first referring to a back issue of Car Craft...

He didn't go to a Hot Rod article to find a suggested torque converter part number. He tried three different converters from a no named local rebuilder until he found one well matched to his combination. (But only after pulling his engine and transmission multiple times.)

He didn't buy a set of CAD designed ceramic coated, equal length, dyno tuned headers...he designed and built his own from scratch.

He couldn't find a source for a 4 bbl. intake manifold to fit the Vortex heads, so he modified a manifold from an earlier V6 application to fit.

Instead of subscribing to the "bigger must be better" philosophy so prevalent in national automotive magazine articles, he instead downsized from a 600 CFM to a 500 CFM carburator...and went quicker and faster in the process.

I have to give you credit though...you do have a good sense of humor..!
Listing credentials of "helping someone on a 10.90 Firebird street car" with a few trips to the autoX and drag strip as "an extensive racing background", was a hoot...!

Until you make your living, EVERYDAY working on racing engines or vehicles...you remain a spectator.
Until you strap YOURSELF in or on a competitive RACING vehicle...you remain a spectator.
Until you have sponsors who believe in your skills enough to pay you to race FOR A LIVING and advertise their products...you remain a spectator.
Until your racing efforts have become successfull enough to be ranked nationally in your chosen sport...you remain a spectator.
Until your racing efforts have been broadcast on ESPN , NHRA. NASCAR , SCCA or other nationally recognized racing entity or sports channel....you remain a spectator.

Please don't take my rant personally...but the best way to pi$$ somene off who has done all the above is to justify your opinion by what you "read in a magazine..."

I suggest that no one has yet accomplished what Mr. Degenhardt has achieved with a natually aspired V6 Fiero, with such limited resources... and for that he should receive some recognition.

Kerry

[This message has been edited by Kerry (edited 06-28-2004).]

?? You guys claim to be a close group who help each other because nobody else appreciates the fiero and you want to spread the word, yet when someone does step up and do something impressive, they get bashed because 'they could have done more'.. I've yet to meet another group of car 'enthusiasts' who tear apart and rip each other more than this. "It beat this persons car" "Yeah, but my car wasn't tuned specifically for the 1/4".. "It did this time in the 1/4" "Yeah, but if you used this or that, it would have gone faster".. Pretend you don't know anyone here, and you've never heard of the fiero, and read all these threads.. You pick out peoples cars from ebay that you don't like, and say it's the ugliest piece of **** you've ever seen, or "I think I'm going to throw up" "wtf??" and crap like that.. but if someone you all know or like on PFF posted the same picture of their car, they would get nothing but praise. Talk about an elite popularity contest.

Pretend you don't know anyone here, and you've never heard of the fiero, and read all these threads.. You pick out peoples cars from ebay that you don't like, and say it's the ugliest piece of **** you've ever seen, or "I think I'm going to throw up" "wtf??" and crap like that.. but if someone you all know or like on PFF posted the same picture of their car, they would get nothing but praise. Talk about an elite popularity contest.
Above is a quote from johnnyk! If you really think about it,he is right.

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#1112
Question my ability,question my intelligence,never question my integrity!

I am sorry you feeling so sensitive on this. But that is not my problem. I did not attack you, I just want to point out that 12.50 is good but with 4.3 liters and 2500 pounds it could be faster and I am sure if he keeps on it it will be. I also did point out SPEED=$$$$$

Oh I forgot, I have been paid to drive a full blown race car for what ever that matters.

[This message has been edited by hyperv6 (edited 06-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: ?? You guys claim to be a close group who help each other because nobody else appreciates the fiero and you want to spread the word, yet when someone does step up and do something impressive, they get bashed because 'they could have done more'.. I've yet to meet another group of car 'enthusiasts' who tear apart and rip each other more than this. "It beat this persons car" "Yeah, but my car wasn't tuned specifically for the 1/4".. "It did this time in the 1/4" "Yeah, but if you used this or that, it would have gone faster".. Pretend you don't know anyone here, and you've never heard of the fiero, and read all these threads.. You pick out peoples cars from ebay that you don't like, and say it's the ugliest piece of **** you've ever seen, or "I think I'm going to throw up" "wtf??" and crap like that.. but if someone you all know or like on PFF posted the same picture of their car, they would get nothing but praise. Talk about an elite popularity contest.

AMEN

DITTO. This used to be such a nice place 5 yes ago......

I saw the car run, and was impressed. I wish I had gotten close up to see more of it though.

quote Originally posted by hyperv6: #4 Hot Rod March 1999 page 74 John Norman with a 4.6 Northstar ran 11.2 114.3 MPH with out NOS, he did add it later. Rear wheel HP 267.2 at 6,000 RPM. This was also a street car on street tires. I have seen it many times and I was last tols he still has it in Indiana. He reprogramed the computer and cleaned up the heads on this engine. Not may parts were available when he built it. Keep in mind it is only 4.6 liters

BS.
My Northstar ran 12.86 @ 106 with 255 or a little better at the rear wheels. I have 200 pounds LESS transmission than he does. He may have run 11.2 at 114.3 with N2O (and slicks...), but he most certainly did not run that without N2O.

Who here has a 12 second Fiero? <raises hand>

Everyone who does not have a 12 second Fiero--or at the very least a 12 second car--You're all bench racers! SHUT THE HELL UP AND QUIT BASHING THE GUY!!!!

He's gone a long way with very little and I don't think anyone who's said he didn't do a good job or could have done better with less could do the same

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

I saw the car run and saw it up close. I completely agree with Kerry it was a veryyyy impresive accomplishment on this gentlemans part on a very limited budget. He was a friendly honest kind of guy. Another thing that immpressed me was the work he had done to the trany. He had put a lot of work into it and you could tell that he was hooking up to the track real hard. I was happy to see someone doing things differently and succesfully.
Jon

So if my N/A 3.4L 60 degree V6 runs 12.9 do I get second place?

Or are the 60 degree V6's now in the same group as the 90 degree V6's?

Seriously!!!

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Calgary - August 1, 2004 Fiero Fiesta
1984 Indy Fiero 3.4/3100 Hybrid NA and...
*ALL THROTTLE AND NO BOTTLE*
http://www.gmpcm.com/ Killer ECM/ PCM tuning software and information

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: ?? You guys claim to be a close group who help each

**SNIP**

you hit it on the head.
for all of us watching, our thoughts were, "man that things fast"
not "that thing chould be faster"

i wished i could have stayed saturday night to meet him.
i've been plannig a 4.9 for the next engine in Juila but i've always liked the idea of doing a 4.3.
and after seeing that thing, i might lean that way.

you didn't happen to get his number email or anything?
i'ld really like to talk to him.
it wouldn't be too much different than putting the 350 in Ling. guess i would be giving Archie a call again.

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Buddy - there are two "G"s in my name
Ling = 84SE-350-N2O(off line)-Poly-Mr.Mike seats-Sequential turn signals-short shifter
Julia C = 85GT stock (kinda)
Ivy = 67 Pontiac Catalina
KCFOG

quote Originally posted by Will: Who here has a 12 second Fiero? <raises hand> Everyone who does not have a 12 second Fiero--or at the very least a 12 second car--You're all bench racers! SHUT THE HELL UP AND QUIT BASHING THE GUY!!!! He's gone a long way with very little and I don't think anyone who's said he didn't do a good job or could have done better with less could do the same

Agreed. When it comes to 1/4mile numbers, im not the one to say whos car is faster and/or why, i have a great deal of respect for these people because my dad being an ASE certified Mechanic, i grew up seeing him do engine swaps and work with tools with tolerances up to .0100's of an inch..... i know how much fabrication and work goes on, so to anyone in the 12&13 second club.......My respects.

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I own an original yellow 1988 pontiac fiero GT, (wingless, currently purple) very proud also....Truly is...Driving Excitement!

Matching numbers GT
#17889 of 26,402 made in 1988

[This message has been edited by roys88fiero (edited 06-28-2004).]

Buddy,

I do have his phone number, but I don't think it appropriate to pass it out without his approval.

Let's let the guy join Pennocks and hope that the wanabe "experts" don't drive him away with their lack of respect for his accomplishment.

I had hoped my post might insure he would be welcomed with open arms to establish a beneficial dialog, regarding his car but after the "Ohh..12.50's are OK...but he ought to be running in the 8's..." crap...I'm not so sure we would be very good hosts.

I took video of his passes from the tower, directly behind the bleach box. Each shot includes his ET and MPH in the frame. I promised him I would send him a copy. When I do, I will see if he will share more information on his car's details.

I also agree that the 4.3 is an overlooked option. When I designed and made an adapter for a small block, I subsequently built an 86 4.3 longblock with forged flat tops, four bolt mains, Aluminum 2.02 intake heads, a fully baffled short track oil pan and scraper, and a "rat roaster" cross ram intake, with a TBI Holly Injection unit on top. After leaning toward the 4.9 with Allante intake, and with the current vehicle inspection requirements, the 4.3 has been setting in the garage waiting to be assembled, and collecting dust.

Keep in mind that in ASA racing when the 4.3 was still legal, these engines were making 340-350 HP with .480"lift cams, single 4 bbl. and valve bowl porting only. The fact that the engine is 4.4" shorter than a small block resolves a lot of potential clearance issues such as the waterpump that may appeal to many. Also, in some states an engine change from a 6 cyl to an 8 cyl requires a change in title, however an engine change to another 6 cyl. does not.

The fact that Archie can supply many of the parts for a small block that would work on a 4.3 simplifies the installation. I'm sure Archie could identify several customers who have gone with the "3/4 small block".

There are several benefits, including less rear weight bias than a V8 Chevy, yet the engine has seen very little interest by Fiero owners. I have personally seen only three completed 4.3's. But the red 84 SE certainly made me reconsider the combination.

I also agree that Ralph could be an excellent resource on making an automatic 4T40 / 4T60 / 4T60E more reliable behind 300 ft lbs of torque. He currently is modifying the second gear drum to accept two additional friction plates ( from 6 to 8) and he also has a simple modification to the hydraulic system to increase line pressure, but it is still an automatic valve body...no manual shift body. He indicated that he let the trans shift from low to second, and then shifted manually to third to better control the shift point. The converter is a stock replacement with the addition of furnace brazed fins.

BTW, Ralph indicated his gas mileage was not on par with some of the more fuel efficient PCM controlled swaps like the 4.9. His mileage was about 20 on the highway and mid to low teens in town. But in context to his performance..still not too shabby...

And finally, if anyone was standing directly behind Ralph when he launched, you would have noted that even though he ran some 1.78 60 ft times, he was not getting equal traction from both tires. Ralph felt he might lower his ET another 2-3 tenths with a semi locking differential. Tom Hill and he discussed a differental locker plate that Tom has used on the Team Python 4.9 which is made by an independant machinist in AZ.

With a better differential and better tires he may realistically approach 12.0's soon...

Kerry

[This message has been edited by Kerry (edited 06-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by donk316: So if my N/A 3.4L 60 degree V6 runs 12.9 do I get second place? Or are the 60 degree V6's now in the same group as the 90 degree V6's? Seriously!!!

When you knock off a 12.9 pass, we'll figure that out. Until then it's bench racing.

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

True, but the 60 degree guys don't get alot of respect from the 3800 crowd. Hopefully that will change soon.
I'm not going to bench race, so we'll wait and see........
I think it's time for us running 60 degrees to step up.
X, Darth, everyone running a 4.9 or a SBC, don't you want some more competition??

The 60 degrees have so much potential that isn't getting used it's crazy.

Well with all the bashing you guys have done to this guy & his car, I'd be surprised if he ever joined PFF.

I saw the car run several times & was very impressed.

That car is definately a "sleeper" 'cuz apparently no one noticed it on the show field.

I was also very impressed with Don Kraus' car & the driver. Very nice looking car that is very fast & consistant. Driven by a guy who is always very helpful & polite. mony would do well to emulate him.

Archie

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quote Originally posted by Archie: That car is definately a "sleeper" 'cuz apparently no one noticed it on the show field.

?
i looked at every engine there that had it's hood up. and i dont remember seeing a 4.3.
i will admit that i saw an engine that i didn't reconize and i couldn't find the owner to ask about it.
it had something like a black plastic intake like a 3800NA
and i think it had an HEI distributor but i didn't count plug wires.
i dont even remember what the rest of the car looked like.

and i heard from one of my club members that he had the radiator in the back and i know i would have remembered that.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 06-28-2004).]