How much better is the handling on the 88GT? Can upgrades to the 87 get you pretty close (solid cradle bushings, roll bar, good struts, etc.)?? Thanks.

I have had both and can say that hands down the 88 is better by far. It not only feels smoother but it handles better and has MUCH better brakes and the steering is so much better it almost feels like power steering.
You can spend alot of money on any suspension but you should start out with the best and modify it.

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Rickady88GT QuadCam 3.5 V6

I've been wondering about that myself, actually. I can understand there being some difference between them, but really, is it THAT different?

Well if you think about it, the 84-87 used the front-end of a Chevy Citation in the rear, and the front of the Fiero was from a Chevelle. The 88s on the otherhand has a custom suspension built exactly for it. But I still love my 86GT very much and think it handles great

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quote Originally posted by Pontiac Boi: Well if you think about it, the 84-87 used the front-end of a Chevy Citation in the rear, and the front of the Fiero was from a Chevelle.

Actually it was a Chevette. I'm not exactly sure of the year, but Chevelle's got killed off in the mid 70's (I think).

Opps, ya meant Chevette, it's 2am heh

Wow, thanks. I had no idea that the early years were a hybrid of existing suspensions. That is very interesting. At work I am a big fan of leverage from one project to another and have found that leverage can easily get you 80-90% of what you want towards your goal. That final 10-20% is where all the big R&D dollars go. In this case, would people agree that an 87GT has 80-90% of the handling of the 88GT, or is it really "a much better ride?" I know this is subjective, but can anyone put any figures on that, such as increased speed into turns, etc. Perhaps it is more forgiving to the inexperienced driver, or has more potential for experienced drivers? How would it compare to say, a Corvette?

The difference between a 87 GT and 88GT is like night and day like Rickady88GT says. There's no comparing the ride / handling of a 88 with the earlier years, the 88's drive more like a real car and not an ox cart. YES I can say that, I have pre-88's myself.

quote In this case, would people agree that an 87GT has 80-90% of the handling of the 88GT, or is it really "a much better ride?" I know this is subjective, but can anyone put any figures on that, such as increased speed into turns, etc. Perhaps it is more forgiving to the inexperienced driver, or has more potential for experienced drivers? How would it compare to say, a Corvette?

a stock 87 GT is not 80-90% handling of a 88GT, maybe 70-75% at best. Ride, 60% of a 88, Steering 60%.

Heck sit a 87GT and a 88GT side by side on a level surface and in neutral, the 88 is even easier to push, it rolls so much easier.

"Is it more forgiving to inexperianced drivers"? Most defenitely, no doubt about it, "or has more potential for experienced drivers" same answer. Compared to a Corvette?, I haven't driven a C5, but a vette from the Fiero's era rides like...well..... lets just call that an ox cart too.

Most people who buy an 88 stay with an 88, and drive only 88's, there's a reason for that. Yes it is just that much better.

[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 06-22-2004).]

quote Originally posted by jelly2m8: Most people who buy an 88 stay with an 88, and drive only 88's, there's a reason for that. Yes it is just that much better.

That would be me.

I've ridden in a modded 86 GT that would outhandle my stock Formula, but if I do the same things to my Formula, then it's no competition again.

I had an 87 gt, while it was truck loads of fun, I thought the handling was very medicore. The 88's are much better.

[This message has been edited by Lex (edited 06-22-2004).]

What is the difference ? Front first.
More than the rack I suppose. The rack and springs? Or further ? Oh yeah, brakes. How much of the brake system, calipers out ? By completely redesigned, would that mean an 88's could not be a bolt in swap for earlier years?

The rear?

Would the 88 non-GT be better than the earlier GT's ? Might be easier to find a donor.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: What is the difference ? Front first. More than the rack I suppose. The rack and springs? Or further ? Oh yeah, brakes. How much of the brake system, calipers out ? By completely redesigned, would that mean an 88's could not be a bolt in swap for earlier years? The rear? Would the 88 non-GT be better than the earlier GT's ? Might be easier to find a donor.

What is different? Everything. The rack and springs are different, as are the actual control arms and mounting points to the car, the brakes (rotors, calipers, pads), etc. Everything on the front end is different. The rear changes are not as damatic everywhere, but it has been extensively changed too. People have swapped 88 suspensions in, but I do not see how they would simply be a bolt in afair.

I'd say a 88 4 banger (non GT, since the Formula's use the same setup as the GT's) would be very close to being better than a pre-88 GT, if they are not already. The only real difference in the 88 4 bangers vs the V6 is spring rate changes and not having the rear anti roll bar. Otherwise its still the same setup.

As erveryone has said, night and day difference. My 88 Formula drives completely different my 85 SE 2m6.

edit:

PS, that is not to say a pre-88 does not handle well, or cannot be made to handle well. But in base form, it is a big difference. Whethr anyone should skip a pre-88 for the new suspension is a personal decision, and should be based in part on how the vehicle will be used. 88 suspension and brake parts are more expensive since they are more rare, which could hurt someone on a budget. Also, someone who is looking for a fun car to tool around in may not mind the 87 suspension at all, where as someone else may be dead set against the pre-88's. I usually like to tell people to buy a Fiero that is in as good of shape as they can find to hopefully cut down on repairs and headaches. I would buy a nice 87 GT over a beaten 88 for instance, simply because the difference between the two is not a deal breaker for me.

[This message has been edited by Fformula88 (edited 06-22-2004).]

I have an 88 GT and Matt has a Formula and we also have an 85GT and access to 86 and 87 GT's. The 88's handle better by far.

You can mod an 87 so it handles d*mn near close to the 88 (my mother's old 87 did) but then you usually compromise the ride. Her's made you feel every darn bump and jar in the road.

Jen

Modifying an early suspension consists of changing springs, dampers, and roll bars to change the tune of the suspension

What makes the '88 superior is not tuning, but geometry. An early car will never be as forgiving as an '88 because it doesn't have the geometry.

It's like comparing a 283 Chevy to a 327. Even with fuel injection on the 283, a carbed 327 will make more power... but fuel injection on the 327 would be that much sweeter.

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

quote Originally posted by tjfennel: I can understand there being some difference between them, but really, is it THAT different?

Yes.

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Doug Chase
Chase Race
Custom roll cage and exhaust fabrication

I've had one of each. I agree with everything said here.
Something I *really* noticed that hasn't been said here. 88's are WAY better at high speed.

For some reason pre 88's seem allot more twitchy and like to wander more at triple digits.

I had an 87se v6, it had 50 k miles and new shocks struts and bushings
and it rode like a truck and it was way tooo twitchie at speed
brakes were a joke even after every thing was replaced with new parts

I got an 88 coupe with a v6 swaped in next
ride was way softer, brakes would actualy stop the car
and the car cornered like it was on rails
nite and day difference in the 88 vs 87

I now have two formulas and would not take a 87 or earlyer fiero as a gift

the ONLY mod that will improve the 87 is a 88 cradle swap for real world roads
poly and stiffer springs and other parts only work on super smooth surfaces
hit a bump and the 87 car will both beat you up and feel loose
there is just no way to fix an 87 to be better then an 88

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

well like everyone has said thus far 88's are far better in cornering ride and overall handling. I had a blue 87 coupe before my Formula I had the bigger front sway bar, and added the rear sway bar, and replaced the ruber bushings in the cradle with alluminum. Replaced the shocks and struts, installed poly bushings through out the whole suspention and it did handle better then a base 87. But after the blue one got into the accedent I picked up the Formula. I have everything the 87 had. Poly through out the suspention, new shocks and struts, and the sway bars are the same diameter as the after market for the pre-88. All I can say is the 88 handling keeps getting better and better. Hands down 88's will always have superior handling to the pre-88's

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[This message has been edited by Fierokid87 (edited 06-22-2004).]

The 88's are hands down better in stock configuration.

I wish my digital camera was working so I could post a pre 88 front/Rear suspension and the 88 front/rear suspension so you can see the obvious design differences for yourself. Can anyone else post some pics of these?

Oh ya, 88's have alot comfier seats too!

How would a Held Motorsports suspension package on an 84-87 fiero compare to an 88? It eliminates bump steer, the tubular control arms do not flex and there would be poly everywhere.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: How would a Held Motorsports suspension package on an 84-87 fiero compare to an 88? It eliminates bump steer, the tubular control arms do not flex and there would be poly everywhere.

This is a goooood ?...........

Question: Does the Held kit "eliminate" the bump steer, or mask it? To eliminate it you have to change the geometry of the suspension, but damper and bump steer kits can improve the stock geometry quite a bit.

The problem in the pre-88 rear suspension is it's a front suspension setup, with the tie rods just bolted to the cradle. As the wheel travels up and down, you get toe-in changes - hence the bump steer. With the 88 tri-link design, that toe change is minimized and you get virtually no bump steer. Also the struts are relocated for better geometry.

The 88 suspension is quite literally a clean sheet of paper redesign - no parts were carried over (except maybe control arm bushigs or something very minor). Pontiac spent over $30M on the 88 suspension redesign. If they'd done it for the 86 model, it might have helped the Fiero survive. Many car magazines of the day raved about the new suspension, but in the end it was too little too late to save the Fiero.

Here is a link to the bump steer correction control arm.
http://heldmotorsports.com/bump.htm

As you can see, the original tie rod connection no longer exists and the side to side geometry will not change as you go over a bump. This part in its self should make an 87GT much better in a corner than stock. Tubular contol arms upper and lower will stiffen the suspension and front and rear coil overs would improve the handling drastically. I don't see a problem with making a pre 88 fiero handle great, just $$. With Held's full slalom suspension, it should outhandle a stock 88 hands down.

Do the 88 coupes really not have the rear sway bar? What other diffrences between the coupe and GT?

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: Do the 88 coupes really not have the rear sway bar? What other diffrences between the coupe and GT?

yes no rear bar on the 88 coupe
some coupes had springs that are softer [rear ones mostly]
and the original shocks and struts are softer too but long gone on most cars anyway
all other bits are the same except maybe the rubber bushings

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

Thanks for all the great information. Those suspension pictures really illustrate the point well; the 88 suspension is so much beefier, both front and rear. Presumably the 88 must then weigh significantly more than the 84-87.

So to sum it up at this point, the 88 GT and Formula live at a whole different level of handling and ride smoothness, but the 84-87 rear suspension can be improved significantly with a few modifications:

1) Held bump-steer kit (a reasonable $675 for what you get),
2) Darrell Morse solid aluminum cradle mounts ($100),
3) Urethane bushings ( ...)

Far more can be spent, but this seems like a reasonable medium budget $ list to widen the smile on my face during cornering.

With the mileage on most of our cars, I guess everyone needs new struts anyway, then it's just a question of how much to spend on those (huge range of price there!)

What about putting an 88 rear setup in an 87? I read somewhere on here taht the 84-87 front with the 88 rear is one of the best combinations for handling.

quote Originally posted by derangedsheep: What about putting an 88 rear setup in an 87? I read somewhere on here taht the 84-87 front with the 88 rear is one of the best combinations for handling.

George Ryan is a big proponent of the 88 rear cradle in the early chassis. He has run his cars in AutoX competition for several years with this set up. While I have not communicated with him for some time, I would be surprised if he didn't appear at Wheatstock. BTW. George was the author of the Fiero article in the February, 04 issue of Grassroots Motorsports.

As for the rear bump steer, a fairly inexpensive alternative to Held's bump steer kit is offered by RCC Engineering (about $120). If you look closely, you can see a photo at:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/037446-2.html Look at the second spot where Bryce indicates that a photo may be seen "here and here".

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FierOmar

[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 06-23-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: The 88 suspension is quite literally a clean sheet of paper redesign - no parts were carried over (except maybe control arm bushigs or something very minor). Pontiac spent over $30M on the 88 suspension redesign. If they'd done it for the 86 model, it might have helped the Fiero survive. Many car magazines of the day raved about the new suspension, but in the end it was too little too late to save the Fiero.

The '88 suspension was originally supposed to be on the Fiero from the '84 introduction, but the bloody F@#%ing bean counters killed that idea.

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

You guys should stop talking about how much better the '88's are over the other years, cuz now you're just making me want a '88.

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: I have had both and can say that hands down the 88 is better by far. It not only feels smoother but it handles better and has MUCH better brakes and the steering is so much better it almost feels like power steering. You can spend alot of money on any suspension but you should start out with the best and modify it.

'87 and before have steering dampers. As you see I have an '85 and an '88, one of the things I find is that the steering is so much heavier in the '85. Now the '88 has 7500 mi and the '85 has 100000 mi so wear is a factor in my driving experience between the two, but does the '85 really need this additional resistance in the steering system? Has anyone removed the damper with positive results?

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RickN
White 88GT 5spd - Grey Interior
White 85GT Auto - Grey Interior

[This message has been edited by RickN (edited 06-23-2004).]

I have heard that skidpad numbers are not significantly different between the two suspensions. I would love to drive an 88 to see how it feels compaired to my 87.

quote Originally posted by RickN: '87 and before have steering dampers. As you see I have an '85 and an '88, one of the things I find is that the steering is so much heavier in the '85. Now the '88 has 7500 mi and the '85 has 100000 mi so wear is a factor in my driving experience between the two, but does the '85 really need this additional resistance in the steering system? Has anyone removed the damper with positive results?

Tons of people have. It comes off easily and it is probably the fiero part most likely to have become a doorstop.

I just recently got me an 88 coupe to build up into a crazy fast car.

Just looking at the suspensions I can see that the 88 is far superior.
The trailing arm looks like it handles torque a lot better than the
84-87 system for the back.

The 86 is going to go up for sale soon....I am that convinced just by
working on the suspension and driving a friends 88 GT. It is hands
down better.

And using the Held motorsports system to improve the handling?
I would just buy the 88 and spend my 650 on improving the 88
suspension all while the 84-87 suspension is spending all that money
just trying to play ketch up!

Here is the RC Specialty Products bump steer link. There's no picture there, but it seems like the kit must not include the improved control arms as in the Held kit, thus, much less $$. There are many other interesting items there!

http://dwayne9.addr.com/fiero.html

Now as far as "getting an 88" to replace our pre-88 rides, well, obviously this is something only a few of us will be able to do ($$$$, driveway space-yes-I live in CA, availability of cars, spousal disincentives, etc.) As far as picking up an 88 cradle in the bone yard goes, I have never seen an 88 of any type there (but I haven't scoured all the San Diego and LA yards, so I could make that a quest this summer ...)

Any other relatively inexpensive mods we can do???

quote Originally posted by DustoneGT: And using the Held motorsports system to improve the handling? I would just buy the 88 and spend my 650 on improving the 88 suspension all while the 84-87 suspension is spending all that money just trying to play ketch up!

I don't think the Held stuff is necessary. I've heard mixed things about it. Just remember that everything written on the Held website is marketing to get you to buy the suspension... most of the website dates back to when the company was Ryane, rather than Held.

Look at Cal Kid's car to see what the '88 suspension is capable of...

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future

So let me get this straight, the 88 coupes have inferior bushings too !/???
arrrgggg...
So wheres the best place to get new bushings?

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: So let me get this straight, the 88 coupes have inferior bushings too !/??? arrrgggg... So wheres the best place to get new bushings?

inferior bushings? maybe but
rubber bushings should be toast by now anyway in any 16 year old car
replace with polly if you want tight handeling [prothane]
new rubber for a soft ride [GM] or auto parts store

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 06-24-2004).]