I know this is probly somewhere in the archives, but I'm at work and don't have the time too look. Annywaise.

When you carb, say, a 2.8, do you have to modify the reardeck lid or anything? Is there a write up or anyting on it? My 2.8 (not in my car, the one that will be a 3.1 tuned and all) has no injectors or any of the EFI system because the injectors went bad and the fuel rails got stoped up or something. Just thinking about putting a holly carb on it. What would be the CFM needed for this (about)?

Thx guys!!!

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Check my car out at Car Domain!

I think someones said around a 500 cfm should be max. I think that was for a 2.8. For a 3.1, you could prob get away with a 600 if that was the case. I know 2.8s in old citations and S10s were carbed.

Use Edelbrock's torker 2 intake (stock GM carbed 2.8 manifolds suck) . There are two options with this intake. 2-bbl and 4-bbl. 2-bbl has an EGR provision and the 4 doesnt. The Holley 390cfm 4-bll carb is good for the 2.8, that is what Oreif is using with great results, im not sure if im going to use the same carb or not yet

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+ a silver 85 2M4 *RIP gold 87 2M4*
--Adam--
IM AOL: FieroGT5speed

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: Use Edelbrock's torker 2 intake (stock GM carbed 2.8 manifolds suck) . There are two options with this intake. 2-bbl and 4-bbl. 2-bbl has an EGR provision and the 4 doesnt. The Holley 390cfm 4-bll carb is good for the 2.8, that is what Oreif is using with great results, im not sure if im going to use the same carb or not yet

That's the set up I was thinking of. Are there any clearence problems on the decklid or anything? Would I have to but something on the decklid to raise it up a bit to get it all to fit, or not? Any idea how much this set up costs (about)?

I just got my new Jegs catalog. They list the Holley 390 cvm, vacuum secondary 4 bbl.

"calibrated to work on 6 cyl engines wanting max performance"

# 510-0-8007..............$279 msrp

or online http://jegs.com or 800-345-4545

8007 is the carb I'm using as well. I think modding the decklid depends on which air cleaner setup you use.

Orief is the man of this subject...

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: 8007 is the carb I'm using as well. I think modding the decklid depends on which air cleaner setup you use. Orief is the man of this subject...

Ok, thanks all of you, you all recive pluses (assuming I have'nt alredy given you any).

Jncomutt, do you know which filter(s) will allow it to work with not mod?

Let's keep this up so Orief will post Come on Orief! lol.

I'm here!

First, With the Edelbrock intake, 4-bbl riser, and the Holley 390 CFM 4-bbl, (model #8007) You will have exactly 2.75" of clearence for the stock decklid. (This is the same if you use the 2-bbl riser with the Holley 500 CFM 2-bbl carb.)
(This is only for the 85-88 notchback and the fastback decklids, You have 1" less clearence on the 84 decklids.)
There are a few air cleaners that fit. Any air cleaner with a 2.75" or less overall height should work. Also note that even if the air cleaner has a 2" air filter, Some have a thicker base so the overall height could be more.
The ones I know fit are:
The Mr. Gasket 6.5" round (small, but kind of restrictive because the air filter is only 3/4" high. 2" overall height)
The Edelbrock 10" signature (easiest to use and plenty of flow. 1.5" high air filter, 2.25 overall height)
The Moroso 14" with the lowered edge (not the flat base)

The only problem with the Moroso is the decklid brace may rub the edge of the air cleaner.

The only other things you will need will be a 4-cyl fuel pump and regulator, An 83-85 S-10 mechanical distributor, and a CSI or Jegs cable bracket. If it's an auto trans (and/or cruise control), the Jegs version is better. The only mods you need to do is the bracket that runs from the Firewall side head to the dogbone bracket needs a small notch where it runs past the front of the intake. This is because the water jacket snout is a few inches towards the firewall side than the Fiero intake. The thing that gets in the way is the plug you put in sticks out slightly. The only wire that needs to be added is for the Electric Choke. You can tap off the 6-wire connector just above the water pump that originally went to the injector harness. Pins A and D are both fused power. The fuses under the dash are TBI1 for pin A and TBI2 for pin D. You can remove a lot of the unused connectors/wires from the harness, Leave the ECM in the car, and pull the light bulb for the check engine light. You also remove the O2 sensor from the Y pipe and replace it with an 18mm cap. (this does increase the flow thru the Y pipe as well.)
If you have any more specific questions, You can post here, PM or Email me. If you need any pics, I can take them and Email them to you.

Here is a pic of my engine with the Mr.Gasket 6.5" air cleaner on it. (which if someone wants it, It's yours)

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 02-05-2004).]

YEAY! The master is here . Thx for the info Oreif! I need pics to understand part of that though. The wiring and that cable thing...can't figure it out. Is it worth it to do over the stock EFI setup or should I just get all that....crap(injectors, ect)....agian? Why do I need the 4cyl fuel pump and regulator? I'm getting almost everything new (the engine is being torn down for a high-po rebuild), so anny other suggestions? What would you estamate the final cost to be? Thx man!

quote Originally posted by Oreif: The Edelbrock 10" signature (easiest to use and plenty of flow. 1.5" high air filter, 2.25 overall height)

I want to jump in here on this air filter. I have one on my car and it will fit height wise, the problem is if your engine moves at all it will hit on the sides and crush the filter. I have all new rubber mounts on my engine and trans and a new stock dog bone. I will be be switching to poly mounts and a poly dog bone in the future so that I can use this filter without issue but have switched back to the small Mr. Gasket filter do to the clearance issue.

The Edlebrock looks great on top of the carb and will work but you must make sure your engine is solidly mounted.

By the way I am running the 390 Holley/Edlebrock torker II combo on my 3.4 and it runs great with this set-up.
Hope this helps
Richey

Hey Oreif, where are those 2 vacuum lines comming off the carb going to and where do you have you power brake booster line hooked to?

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+ a silver 85 2M4 *RIP gold 87 2M4*
--Adam--
IM AOL: FieroGT5speed

quote Originally posted by Razor_Wing: YEAY! The master is here . Thx for the info Oreif! I need pics to understand part of that though. The wiring and that cable thing...can't figure it out. Is it worth it to do over the stock EFI setup or should I just get all that....crap(injectors, ect)....agian? Why do I need the 4cyl fuel pump and regulator? I'm getting almost everything new (the engine is being torn down for a high-po rebuild), so anny other suggestions? What would you estamate the final cost to be? Thx man!

The V-6 fuel pump puts out about 45psi, Unless you want to get a $200 regulator system it is too much pressure to regulat down to 6-7psi. The 4-cyl pump is at 12psi and a standard regulator will work fine.
Taijiguy carb's his 2.8L and added the matching Edelbrock cam, It has a lot more power than it did with the F/I system. I think it's estimated at about 180hp.
If your building up the engine, Use the Crane H272 cam with the comp cams 1.52 roller tipped rockers, Port the heads, and ported exhaust (or headers) and you should be right around 200hp.
The wiring will be very easy in a few weeks, I'm making a drawing of the harness so any carb'd engine (V-6 or V-8) will be easy to wire up.

As for cables, Is you car auto or manual trans?

I spent a total of about $1600 on my engine and that included: The engine, carb, intake, cam (custom grind), timing chain (double roller), Heads ported, new valvetrain, Hi-vol oil pump, new waterpump, distributor, new valve covers, and Crane Fireball ignition/coil.

is the H272 the 454/480 lift cam? Thats what i was gonna get but wasnt sure on either getting the 1.52 rockers or 1.6 i dont want any valves hitting pistons.

[This message has been edited by GTFiero1 (edited 02-05-2004).]

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: is the H272 the 454/480 lift cam? Thats what i was gonna get but wasnt sure on either getting the 1.52 rockers or 1.6 i dont want any valves hitting pistons.

Yes the H272 is .454/.480. Any lift over .490 requires the pistons to be notched. (there is .495 of clearence) With 1.52 rockers and the H272 cam, Your lift will be .460/.486

quote Originally posted by Oreif: The 2 vacuum lines running to the trunk wall are for the charchol canister. (actually it looks different now. I swapped the vacuum advance with the right upper vacuum hose.)

What was the reason for switching the lines around? I thought the advance was supposed to be below the throttle plates. I have mine hooked up the way you do in the picture and it seems to be fine. just curious.

Richey

quote Originally posted by Oreif: As for cables, Is you car auto or manual trans?

4-speed manuel. It had Crusise control, but I removed it.

CFM = (RPM x CID) / 3456 .... so whats a 2.8.. 171? no idea on the redline.. 6500? probably generous.. i guess 390 would be the closest?
500 would be waaay to much air...

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: CFM = (RPM x CID) / 3456 .... so whats a 2.8.. 171? no idea on the redline.. 6500? probably generous.. i guess 390 would be the closest? 500 would be waaay to much air...

I hate to...burst your bubble...but the carb has alredy been established. And the engine will be a 3.1, Redline at 6k (I'd like to run 6.5k).

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: CFM = (RPM x CID) / 3456 .... so whats a 2.8.. 171? no idea on the redline.. 6500? probably generous.. i guess 390 would be the closest? 500 would be waaay to much air...

The 2.8L is 173ci
The 3.1L is 191ci
The 3.4L is 204ci

The 390cfm is a 4-bbl, The 500cfm is a 2-bbl. The 2-bbl rating of carbs is different than that of a 4-bbl. The 2-bbl 500cfm is equal to a 250cfm 4-bbl. The 2-bbl carbs are measure in 3.0inHG and 4-bbl carbs and F/I is measured at 1.5inHG.

As for 6500 RPM, With heavy duty/performance lifters, Heavy Duty pushrods, and proper springs on the valve train, 6500 is redline on a 60* V-6 pushrod engine.

quote Originally posted by Razor_Wing: 4-speed manuel. It had Crusise control, but I removed it.

So just get the Jeg's with return springs. The bracket bolts to the carb studs. Hook up the throttle cable and your ready to go.
The Part Number is 555-15230 Just go to www.jegs.com and type in the part number at the top of the screen.

quote Originally posted by STRATOHACKER: What was the reason for switching the lines around?

Never mind Oreif. I swapped mine today and figured out why myself. I now have much stronger low end response. I am guessing the distributor was advancing at idle hooked up the other way. I had to make some adjustments to my idle mixture but feels good now.

Ok, thx Orief! Your GREAT! So now that you've got me 90% convinced to go with a carb insted. What kind of advantages and disadvantages is there? I know these:
Advantages:
-Removing the stock intake (restrictive), making some more HP and Torq.
-easier and cheaper to work on/maintain

Disadvantages:
-Can't just "Floor it", have to graduate the throttle
-Have to adjust it frequently.

Anything else?

Also, is there a "High performance" distrubitior for this kind of setup? I cannot find one for the stock engine! lol. How much power are you getting out of your engine?

quote Originally posted by Razor_Wing: Ok, thx Orief! Your GREAT! So now that you've got me 90% convinced to go with a carb insted. What kind of advantages and disadvantages is there? I know these: Advantages: -Removing the stock intake (restrictive), making some more HP and Torq. -easier and cheaper to work on/maintain Disadvantages: -Can't just "Floor it", have to graduate the throttle -Have to adjust it frequently. Anything else? Also, is there a "High performance" distrubitior for this kind of setup? I cannot find one for the stock engine! lol. How much power are you getting out of your engine?

You can floor it off the line. The secondaries are vacuum controlled. They will open as vacuum increases under wide open throttle.This eliminates the "floored bog" associated with mechanical secondary carb's.
You don't have to adjust it frequently, Usually just when you do a tune-up. There is a performance distributor, I forgot who makes it. Dave Gunsul knows, When I looked it was like $350. The stock distributor is fine as long as you upgrade the ignition with a Crane Fireball or MSD set-up. The stock HEI set-up tends to weaken once you get over 4500rpm where the aftermarket ignition works strong all the way to redline. The carb'd intake set-up is also lighter in weight than the F/I set-up.
I'm running a 3.4L that was engine dyno'd at 223hp/239 torque.

In my opinion the only dis-advantage would be emissions. Technically you won't pass. It can be tuned to pass the sniffer test if you use a catalytic converter. As for advantages, Easier to make changes, (You don't need to reprogram a PROM if you make a change.) No worries about intermittent sensors, given the availible aftermarket, you can get more power from a carb'd set-up than the stock F/I. (If you want to stay F/I, You can use the Holley 2-bbl riser and the Holley 670cfm 2-bbl/twin injector Throttle body. See: http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/FMS/FMSFI/502-20S.html
Thru Desktop dyno tests, This will get the same power as a 4-bbl carb.), and it's a lot less cost.

Ok, thx! I'm going to go with the Carb set up, because of alot of what you said (easier to tune when you make changes, and takes away all those STUIPED sensors!). Seince the sensors are gone...would'nt that ALSO make it more reliable...? How much weight do you say it'd reduce? And PM me ore Email me when you get the wiring thing done. Email: RazorWingX7@hotmail.com. I don't have to worry about the sniffer , Watauga county could't get one! lol. Some of the POS cars that are arround here could'nt pass a sniffer test if the probe was 10 feet away! lol! Plus the guy that I bought the car from replaced the cat with a peice of pipe, and the vaccume sinsor that controls the EGR is...broken (well, actually the vaccume line is rotted into nothing, lol). Do you know of a build up thing for this or a site that has step by step things? There are things I have NO IDEA what to do with. Like would the power break thing need to be altered, etc. Thx for you help though!

edit: forgot one more plus: Looks better

edit 2: what gasket(s) will I need?

[This message has been edited by Razor_Wing (edited 02-06-2004).]

Hey Oreif...sorry about all the questions but basically you are the expert on this im gonna go the 1.52 rcokers with the H272 cam, whats the clearence if i had the heads shaved a bit, say 0.010 (what are yours shaved to?)

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: Hey Oreif...sorry about all the questions but basically you are the expert on this im gonna go the 1.52 rcokers with the H272 cam, whats the clearence if i had the heads shaved a bit, say 0.010 (what are yours shaved to?)

Your overall clearence is .495 So if you take .010 off, You would have .485 clearence. With 1.52 rockers You need .486 so you would need to notch the pistons for the exhaust valve only. I took off .010, and my pistons were notched. (I didn't do it, the machine shop did it for me when the did the heads, intake and installed the engine bearings.) Also remember if you shave the heads, they need to shave the intake manifold too. The intake makes up the back side of the heads. So to keep the ports lined up and the valve cover edge mating surface even, They have to shave the intake. You only need to notch the exhaust side lip of the piston. The easiest way to see where you need to notch it is install the piston and put it at TDC. Put a thin coat of modeling clay on the piston and install the head with a loose valve in it. Slowly push the valve down until it stops. Remove head and you will see the small indentation where you need to notch it.

did you need to remove the pistons to get ehm notched or are they able to do it while still in the engine?

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+ a silver 85 2M4 *RIP gold 87 2M4*
--Adam--
IM AOL: FieroGT5speed

Oreif,
I am curious, did you stroke your 2.8 to a 3.4 or did you just pick up a 3.4. I must say, the performance you got on the dyno is VERY impressive! nice work man!

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-Monkey

quote Originally posted by Oreif: The V-6 fuel pump puts out about 45psi, Unless you want to get a $200 regulator system it is too much pressure to regulat down to 6-7psi. The 4-cyl pump is at 12psi and a standard regulator will work fine. .

The regulatory is the least of your worries. Mallory makes the regulator which handles their 110FI fuel pump (which delivers 60 psi) and adjusts output from 12 psi down to 3 psi. $75.

The techies at Jegs put me on to it.

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1472&prmenbr=361

Arn

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: Oreif, I am curious, did you stroke your 2.8 to a 3.4 or did you just pick up a 3.4. I must say, the performance you got on the dyno is VERY impressive! nice work man!

It is a 1994 3.4L out of a Firebird. I tore it down to the bare block and built it up from that.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: As for 6500 RPM, With heavy duty/performance lifters, Heavy Duty pushrods, and proper springs on the valve train, 6500 is redline on a 60* V-6 pushrod engine.

When I was young I used to like to float the valves, and now that I know better 6500 rpm is about all you need.

My 'old' friend used to race boats. He used the 2.8 upon occasion, and tells me that with a high volume big block oil pump, cam, porting, etc. and balancing the crank, the 2.8 will rev clean to 7,800 rpm. Of course boat racers could care less about low end torque, so the point being that what Orief is describing is a torquey high output v6, not a rice burning screamer. You can build high end revs with balancing and blueprinting, but the name of the game is the torque curve, in my book.

Many thanks to Oreif. I expect this summer there will be alot more carb'd 2.8's on the street

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Arn Brown, 1985 Fiero GT, 15.474 ET stock
Mods underway.

I switched to a carbed v6 about 8 years ago and would never switch back to FI..

dependable, easy to work on, and peppy

Where can I get a Torker II intake? What do they cost new? I tried Jegs and Summit and could only find the 2 piece Edelbrock Performer for the 60 deg V-6. Does the Torker II flow better?

There is one on ebay and someone has it set for automatic bid. What is the max I should bid on it and still get a good deal?

Help, please. I want to carb my V-6.

LOL! Thx for keeping this up to the top for my guys .

Arns, There will also be a carbed 3.1 . lol. Yeah, torque wins in the US. Why would you want power at (and only at) 8000-9000 rpm??? I like it in a 3000-5000 or so band .

quote Originally posted by MOJO41: Where can I get a Torker II intake? What do they cost new? I tried Jegs and Summit and could only find the 2 piece Edelbrock Performer for the 60 deg V-6. Does the Torker II flow better? Help, please. I want to carb my V-6.

The one at Jegs and Summit is the correct intake. It is listed as a Performer intake but the 4 barrel riser says Torker II on it.
Richey

quote Originally posted by MOJO41: Where can I get a Torker II intake? What do they cost new? I tried Jegs and Summit and could only find the 2 piece Edelbrock Performer for the 60 deg V-6. Does the Torker II flow better? There is one on ebay and someone has it set for automatic bid. What is the max I should bid on it and still get a good deal? Help, please. I want to carb my V-6.

If the one on Ebay is this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36474&item=2458540245

That is just the riser, not the entire manifold. The person selling it does not know what he has. You need the base and the riser. The base is actually a "performer" style base with the "torker II" riser. There use to be a few more risers you could buy back in the 80's when they first came out, But now all they make are the 2-bbl torker II with EGR ports and the 4-bbl torker II.
Here are the Jegs part numbers for what you need:
Jegs Part # / description/ Price
350-3785 Manifold Base......$149.99
350-3789 Manifold Top 4-bbl $89.99