My uncle and I were goin back and forth on what engine to stick into my Fiero, and what would be a good, easier fit, since im not THAT advanced. But he said a buick Gran National 3.8 would be great for the power, money, and size. But he said it would be very hard to find. Does any one have any info on it, pics, any info, I've searched and searched but dont find much, maybe u much more experienced people can help! thanks a lot!

That would be pretty cool. They also used them in the 1989 Pontiac Turbo Trans Am Pace Cars. 250HP, 340 lb-ft of torque. Would be harder to find, and I don't know if it would be very "cheap" but that's a relative term. In the Grand National and the Trans Am they're mounted longitudinally, though, I wonder if the Fiero transmission would be a straight bolt-on?

http://la.rsson.com/tta1078/engine/engine.html

Doesn't it have an intercooler and aftercooler? I'm not sure if I heard that right, thanks a lot...I knew I could count on you guys haha

From what I understand, the 3.8 GNX motors have the same bellhousing pattern as the 4.3, SB Chevy, etc. Might have to use parts of Archie's kit for it.
I'm no expert on these motors but that gigantic turbocharger would be a really tight fit in a fiero

The 3.8 GN (or GNX) engine does indeed use the Chevy bolt pattern. It would require an adapter plate similar to Archie's V8 adapter. You'd be much better off going with a 3800SC since it's already a transverse design and will bolt right up. Not to mention much more readily available and a huge aftermarket as well.

FYI, the 86-87 (and 89 T/A) GN engines were intercooled. The 84-85 engines were not.

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Oops, doubble post!

[This message has been edited by FieroMaster88 (edited 01-18-2004).]

I thought the grand national was a BOP pattern, not a chevy, pretty sure on it being BOP, and if I remember right, archie even had a conversion kit for it years ago, and he said it was a BOP pattern, not a chevy pattern.

If I recall correctly there is a big difference between the Grand National engine and the GNX engine.

The GNX had double ceramic turbo and was quite capable of pulling the front wheels of that pretty heavy car about 1 foot off the ground on launch.

A real GNX engine would be a monster in a Fiero. I would check around for the HP figures. You may find it has a higher torque curve than the 3800 SC.

That is an incredible idea for a really fast Fiero.

Arn

WOW does that look sexy or what?! lol...as said before I LOVE CHROME!! haha thanks again!

Yes it's a BOP.

The GNX was a grand National that was pulled from the assembly line and had the suspension changed and a few additions to the car,ceramic turbo and I'm not sure what else to the engine.It got fender flares and a few other cosmetic changes.The engine would certainly power a Fiero to ungodly acceleration,but it would be very expensive because of the cost of the adapter plate and modified flywheel or flexplate.The engine that would be a good replacement for the 3.8 (which is an off center engine) would be the 3800 because it is an on center engine and is almost a bolt in.

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#1112
Question my ability,question my intelligence,never question my integrity!

Before you get too excited about the GN or GNX Engines, start checking the prices, and part prices. The last I heard was that there was a performance block for those engines which is very rare, and they're getting $10,000 plus just for the bare block.

A friend of mine, who has a GN, has the performance parts book for the GN. Well, it covers the GN, Turbo TA and the Typhoon/Syclone. I'll get you some prices of the engines from there, but if I remember right they are expensive. Not to mention, the catalog is from 97. I've been thinking about getting another Fiero for an engine swap. I'll either be doing a 4.9 from a caddy, or a 4.3 Turbo from a Typhoon/Syclone. I think that would be cheaper than a GN engine, unless you can find the engine cheap.

James

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: That would be pretty cool. They also used them in the 1989 Pontiac Turbo Trans Am Pace Cars. 250HP, 340 lb-ft of torque. Would be harder to find, and I don't know if it would be very "cheap" but that's a relative term. In the Grand National and the Trans Am they're mounted longitudinally, though, I wonder if the Fiero transmission would be a straight bolt-on? http://la.rsson.com/tta1078/engine/engine.html

I know for a fact that it's not! I wish someone would make a kit though...they are AWSOME engines. And the 86&87 (last years) had more power then that!!!

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www.freewebs.com/fierogti

I've run 115MPH in the 1/4 with mine.This was with a stock block in a car weighing about 3700 lbs.with me in it.

quote Originally posted by Razor_Wing: I know for a fact that it's not! I wish someone would make a kit though...they are AWSOME engines. And the 86&87 (last years) had more power then that!!!

that power sounds about right.. pontiac tweaked theirs a bit more to squeeze I believe 10 more HP out of it or something, but yeah awesome motors.. now you know why GM is supercharging things and not turbo'ing them

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88 5spd Modified 3800 Series II SC Formula
Modifications 2004 - Intercooler | 2.8 pulley | 1 inch drop | Interior | 17 inch wheels

Pontiac TransAm frame rails are not as wide as the GN so Pontiac engineers had to reconfigure the heads to fit inside the rails by raising the exhaust ports and that gave the exhaust a straighter shot out of the cylinder.They picked up a few horsepower by doing that.

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: If I recall correctly there is a big difference between the Grand National engine and the GNX engine. The GNX had double ceramic turbo and was quite capable of pulling the front wheels of that pretty heavy car about 1 foot off the ground on launch. A real GNX engine would be a monster in a Fiero. I would check around for the HP figures. You may find it has a higher torque curve than the 3800 SC. That is an incredible idea for a really fast Fiero. Arn

Actually there wasn't much difference at all between the GN and GNX engines other than the ceramic turbo. And no, they didn't pull the wheels off the ground stock. The GN engine was actually better suited to being modded because you'd end up replacing the ceramic turbo anyway.

I did lots of research on them before I bought my 87 GN back in the fall of '87.

Not sure if it's a Chevy or BOP bolt pattern, but it's not the same as the Fiero, so an adapter plate of some kind would be mandatory, and yes, Archie has done them in the past, but doesn't do them anymore, if that tells you if it's worth the money and effort.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I want to say they were the 3.8 FWD heads, but don't quote me on that. It was the strut towers being too close together, if I remember.

Quote Quote Quote!

Taken from the 89 TA site link you provided:

"What makes the 20th Anniversary Turbo TA so special is that it is a complete mechanical package, and not just some tape stripes. Starting with the engine, Pontiac borrowed Buick's 3.8 liter (231cid) V6 turbo powerplant from the fabled 1986-87 Grand National. Some difference exist between the TTA motor and the GN version. Different heads were necessary in order to squeeze the motor between the strut towers. These heads, adapted from the transverse FWD version of the 3.8 liter motor, have the added benefit of improved exhaust flow and combustion chamber design."

As much as I love the GN/TTA motors (Sy/TY's are an entirely different V6 based on the SBC, but simularly equipt) The 3800 is the same thing, more common and a hellovalot cheeper, and in many ways better. It is the latest version of the GN/TTA motor with an added balance shaft, more sophisticated computer controls (for better or for worse). better factory pistons, cross bolted deep skirted mains, better aftermarket at a fraction of the cost.... AND IT BOLTS UP TO OUR TRANSMISSION!!! So, I suggest you look into putting a turbo onto a 3800 before you attempt putting in a GN/TTA motor.

If you sacrifice a GN or worse, a GNX, U R DUMB!!!!! That isn't any ordinary ceramic turbo in the GNX, that baby was done by McLaren. Do not, I REPEAT, do not sacrifice a GN or GNX. Many will hate you.

Anyway, the 3.8 back then is more or less the same as the 3.8 now. The one now, has more potential. The S/C versions, with a 1 inch smaller pulley, new throttle body, exhaust, and some ignition mods, you can get 420HP at the crank off that baby!!!!!

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Airman Michael C Casaceli
Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy
1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (project starts in MARCH 2004)
1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (RIP. KIA by a Ford)
19** Chevy S-10....Coming soon

quote Originally posted by fieroturbo: Anyway, the 3.8 back then is more or less the same as the 3.8 now. The one now, has more potential. The S/C versions, with a 1 inch smaller pulley, new throttle body, exhaust, and some ignition mods, you can get 420HP at the crank off that baby!!!!!

And ported heads, and cam, and full valvetrain, and ported intake manifold, and ported blower housing, and headers, and... and... and...

It ain't as simple as all that.

quote Originally posted by Will: And ported heads, and cam, and full valvetrain, and ported intake manifold, and ported blower housing, and headers, and... and... and... It ain't as simple as all that.

LOL Will !!! Do I hear the faint ticking of a Time Bomb???

There not the same not even close. I have personally seen a GN turn 11.0's with the STOCK motor and turbo.No 3800 SC can touch the 3.8 Turbo dollar for dollar. This is a daily driven car too that gets 22mpg.. Boost raised to 22psi larger intercooler and alcohol injection is all thats needed for these cars to turn 11.0's. His best time was a 10.5 when he hooks good on the track. My 80 Regal Sport Coupe had a 3.8 T but its was replaced with a 305 The regal tranny is dual bolt pattern so any GM Small block works. Quite talking about the GNX there are less than 300 made so you wont find one cheap. Even GN's are tough to find for you states guys so ive heard. There are lots of them up here in can. Every time I go to the strip theses at least 2 running.

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85 GT 4 speed 2.8L auto X'er

[This message has been edited by red85gt (edited 01-19-2004).]

Rats! Fierobsessed stole my suggestion!! You can find a FWD 3.8 block just about anywhere for dirt cheap and get a GN turbo and computer from someone over at http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ . I'm tooling up to put a GN turbo on my 3.4 TDC. The GN stock turbo is an A/R .63 unit which flows a decent amount of air. The thing is, a lot of guys with GN's ripped their stock turbos off and upgraded to bigger ones. So there are plenty of them lying around in people's basements. I know I got mine with only 20,000 miles on it from a guy for $150 (US). So anyway, head over to the u-pull-it yard and grab yourself a 3.8 for $100... presto, you're on your way to 12 secondsville... well maybe smasheduphandssorebackanddepletedbankaccountsville...

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85GT Turbo 3.4TDC/5-speed in progress
http://www.thestewartconnection.com/fiero/fiero.html

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 01-19-2004).]

There are so many ways to skin a cat. So far the fastest GN with factory block (109 or SGI 3.8) is 9.57 @ 137 mph I think. He has steel crank and all the goodies internally. Building a GN motor is not hard. You can order a ATK long block through you local automotive supply store for around $1200-$1500, you need a custom wire harness from Casper’s electronics for around $500-$600 or if you can get the harness out of a 87 FWD 3.8 motors with VIN code #3 you can use the harness and the ECM, you need to make few other modifications. You can also use the FWD 87 3.8 intake which will bold right up to the GN heads/ that would leave with exhaust manifolds that you can buy from Turbobuick.com for around $100-$150. You also need few other things. It is not bad at all. If you look at the GN sites, you will be able to find the whole setup for around $1500-$2500.As far as after market stuff, the sky is the limit. Like people stated earlier the GN motor is a BOP bolt pattern. As far as GNX, there are 547 made and they run from 30K to 100K in price. A GN, GNX and TTA has the same motor with few differences like above mentions heads, GNX has better suspension, beefed up tranny, ceramic turbo, modified IC and few other things. Drop around $800 into a GN or a T type and it will run circles around the GNX. The biggest problem is not getting the motor; it is getting something behind the GN motor to hold up. You have to go to a longitudinal setup and use a TH425 or the least a beefed up TH325-4L. This is what I am doing. Don't think that it is just a little V6, these motors are torque monsters. I was at a dyno last month and my buddies car with stock block, stock crank and rods put out 540 RWHP and 603 Trq. Nothing that is available in the transverse setup will last behind this littlie V6.You also have run an automatic trans behind this to get the maximum efficiency. These are low rpm motor with red line at 5500rpm (stock) don’t even think about a stick behind it. Initially the 1989 TTA tried a 5 speed behind Buick 3.8 motor and the car slowed down a full second so they went back to the 200r4 trans. I can go on and on but I don't want to bore you guys. I f you are serious about the GN motor setup I will be more than glad to help you out. Just send me an email or give me a call 630-965-1987. I restore turbo Buicks as a hobby and I will be able to find what you need. (I don't sell anything I have as far as parts) but I know tons of people that do sell.

Good luck

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"Turbo Cars are like hot women. A little edgy, every guy wants one, some guys can't handle them, and if you throw a little alchohol in the mix they'll rock your world"
1986 GT (waiting for Buick GN setup trasplant)
1984SE 5 Speed W/SBC V8
1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH)
1987 Trans Am SBC 355cid Twin Turbo(no track times yet)
1992 GMC Typhoon(13.20@ 99mph)
Other cars; JaguarXJ6 & Mercedes AMG 500SEC

quote Originally posted by California Kid: LOL Will !!! Do I hear the faint ticking of a Time Bomb???

Nah, I'm about ranted out on the "pulley and chip get you 500 HP" threads.

However, I will be building a 300ish HP L67 for my Pontiac 6000 AWD

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Do that again, only mean it this time

quote Originally posted by Will: However, I will be building a 300ish HP L67 for my Pontiac 6000 AWD

Now that I have to see!!!

As good as the stock 3.8L Turbo engines are, I still think the 3800 Series II is a better engine; because of the improved main cap bolting and oiling system. Throw in some 3800 Series III SC powdered-metal forged rods, forged pistons, and good head gaskets and that stock crank and block will handle more than 670hp... They are already doing it at Intense, just talk to Scott Cook. I think what everyone needs to consider is what Scott has done to get the power he has. He is no longer using a supercharger as he as realized (what I have known for a long time) that turbos are superior when we are talking about making BIG hp numbers. Sure, you can get an SC to produce the same amount of power as a turbo, it is just going to cost you a lot more. That is why I decided to go turbo on my 3800 II SC engine.

Don't get me wrong, I love the GNX and GN's. I would trade my Fiero in an instant for a nice stock one because I have seen first hand what they can do with a handful of bolt-ons, plus what kind of blue book value they command. These cars are NOT a waste of money, they are a good investent.

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power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom GM Chip Burning | Fiero Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | dtcc.cz28.com

quote Originally posted by Will: Nah, I'm about ranted out on the "pulley and chip get you 500 HP" threads. However, I will be building a 300ish HP L67 for my Pontiac 6000 AWD

You bastage! I've been looking for a CLEAN 6000 AWD to put a 3800 in! Wanted to be the First. Oh well, know of any clean STE AWD's around?

6000 STE AWD? man you are crazy. For one, the 125C they used in that car is alittle on the rare side! the drive shaft is extreemly expensive and... Ah whats the use. DO IT!!

I picked up a spare trans for $75 from www.car-parts.com
Cost more to ship the thing than it did to buy it.
If the engine's putting out 300 HP, the driveshaft only has to take 150.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-20-2004).]

For once I agree with Darth. An L67 converted to use a turbo will be an easier swap than a GN 3.8, and will have as much if not more power potential on the stock block.

I think it would be great if Buick would take the Sigma platform (Cadillac CTS chassis) and install a turbo 3800 connected to a longitudinal AWD system. GNII, look out AMG.

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'87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud
'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above

Do that again, only mean it this time

quote Originally posted by GT: Rats! Fierobsessed stole my suggestion!! You can find a FWD 3.8 block just about anywhere for dirt cheap and get a GN turbo and computer from someone over at http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ . I'm tooling up to put a GN turbo on my 3.4 TDC. The GN stock turbo is an A/R .63 unit which flows a decent amount of air. The thing is, a lot of guys with GN's ripped their stock turbos off and upgraded to bigger ones. So there are plenty of them lying around in people's basements. I know I got mine with only 20,000 miles on it from a guy for $150 (US). So anyway, head over to the u-pull-it yard and grab yourself a 3.8 for $100... presto, you're on your way to 12 secondsville... well maybe smasheduphandssorebackanddepletedbankaccountsville...

correct me if i am wrong but i believe the block for the GN 3.8 is completely different block than the other 3.8 blocks. I have a friend with a GN and he told me that his block alone would be worth $ 2500.

Is it a stock GN block or one of the stage blocks?

3.8 and 3800 arent the same. I was under the impression the 3.8 is a 350 missing 2 cylindders. same bore and stroke??

[This message has been edited by red85gt (edited 01-22-2004).]

You're thinking the 3.8L Chevy engine. Different beast. The 3.8L and 3800 Buicks are similar, but not enough to swap too many parts. Some, but not many.

go 3800sc and wait for intense-racing to make the turbo kit for the l67

Ok thanks for clearifying that.

correct me if i am wrong but i believe the block for the GN 3.8 is completely different block than the other 3.8 blocks. I have a friend with a GN and he told me that his block alone would be worth $ 2500.

Stock GN blocks are same as the other 3.8 blocks in most cases. Especially 86-87.The 86-87 GN blocks have 109 as the last three digits on the block or it will say SGI on them without any other numbers. I guess GM made the SGI blocks at the end of the 3.8 RWD blocks era. I believe all the 89 Turbo TA have the SGI blocks in them. You can go to a bone yard and pickup a 3.8 RWD out of an 86-87 GM; you can bet most of them are 109 blocks, which they used in NA cars also. I have picked up about 4 of them. If you look at the block closely, you will be able to see the boss in front of the block just below the intake on the passenger side for the oil return line for the turbo application, which you have to drill out if you use it for turbo application. In some cases GM also used the turbo crank in a NA cars, from what I hear GM had a surplus of turbo cranks that they put in most of cars in 86-87. It very easy to tell normally a 3.8 crank only has the main journals rolled where the turbo cranks have the rod journals rolled too.

Now the stage blocks, they were made for the Indy Buick race cars, First stage I, which is a stronger and beefier that the production 3.8 block. It will handle about 800-900 hp, Now stage II is later version of 3.8 block which is a lot stronger with 4 and some with 6 bolt mains. They came in 3.8 and 4.1 liters. They also came in ON and OFF center style. These blocks will hold around 1500 hp. They stopped making these blocks some where in the mid 80's. They are in most of the sub 10 sec GNs. I am in the process of building one my self. A good stage II block is about $2000-$3000. You can find repaired once for cheeper. TA performance is coming with an aluminum block that can handle 1500+ HP for about $3500. It is still being test in few cars.

Just my $.02

Prasad

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"Turbo Cars are like hot women. A little edgy, every guy wants one, some guys can't handle them, and if you throw a little alchohol in the mix they'll rock your world"
1986 GT (waiting for Buick GN setup trasplant)
1984SE 5 Speed W/SBC V8
1987 Buick GN(10.70@124MPH)
1987 Trans Am SBC 355cid Twin Turbo(no track times yet)
1992 GMC Typhoon(13.20@ 99mph)
Other cars; JaguarXJ6 & Mercedes AMG 500SEC