First, I'd like to say that I have always meant to do this, and share the results. I'm NOT doing this to "prove" anything to anybody. I have scans of the timeslips, but they are too large and wide for PIP. If someone can resize them for me, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise I'll try to scan them again at lower res tomorrow.

Second, I'd like to get my excuses out of the way now. My engine is the 300 HP engine, but it's being run by the 275 HP chip, which gives it about 280 HP at the crank, 254 at the wheels. I've also got a less than ideal exhaust. With a good exhaust and the right program in the chip, I could possibly find another 30-40 HP from the engine.

Now on to the show.
The car: '87 GT with '95 Northstar. The chassis has 159K, the engine closing in on 100K. I'm using a Centerforce DF201502 clutch (the Archie clutch), with a 282 Getrag that was overhauled last winter. I have A-body hub carriers with large pattern outer CV's, 5x115 rear hubs and 16x8 Grand Prix wheels. I'm running CHEAP Kumho Ecsta Supra tires in 255/50-16's on the back.

I made it to the strip late but still got 4 runs. The weather was about 70 degrees with nearly 100% humidity; in fact fog and visibility dropping to 1/16 mile eventually closed the strip before I got my 5th run. There wasn't a barometer on site, but www.weather.com says the pressure was 30.04" and falling. This was my first trip to the strip. On all but my first run I gave the tires a quick clean off spin before I staged. A burnout doesn't do any good with tires that cheap.

As I was waited at the water box for my first run, a WRX was ahead of me in the left lane and a slicked and skinnied Fox body was in the right. I should have known there would be trouble when the Fox got a little squirrely doing his burnout. When they launched, the Fox pulled on the WRX, got a little sideways, fishtailed three times, crossed the center line and sideswiped the left guard rail. No one was hurt but the next race was delayed about 30 minutes while they cleaned up the strip to make sure nothing slippery was on it (and picked up all the Mustang trim pieces ). After I saw that I didn't feel so silly being the only one with a helmet.

I elected to rescan the timeslips. I hope they're legible for everyone.

First run:

I was #237. Car #229 was a 2nd gen F-body with a slightly rumpety idle, traction bars, and pretty thick meats in the back. I was surprised that I left him from the green.

2nd run:

I missed 2nd on this run. Car #100 was some anonymous front wheel drive thing.

3rd run:

Since I was spooked by missing 2nd on the last run I took a little longer to make SURE it was in 2nd, which is why I added 2 tenths but only dropped my mph a tiny bit vs. my 1st run. I was in the right lane this time instead of the left, and was lined up against some even more anonymous front wheel drive car.

My 4th run was the coolest:

I was lined up with a WRX. So naturally, faced with an AWD car, I blew the launch to hell. I had my RPM right, came off the clutch smoothly, but didn't give it enough throttle and ended up bogging badly and idling out of the hole. I consequently added 1 1/2 tenths to my best 60'. He led me to 60' by 0.333, but by 330' that had shrunk to 0.189, and I led by 0.029 at the 594' mark. I won by 0.124, thanks to power to weight ratio.

I was at the staging line for my 5th run when they held things up for fog because the cars on the start line couldn't see the finish line. It just got worse and they closed for the night a few minutes later.

Questions? Thoughts?

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'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.

'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-19-2003).]

You can send them to me...I'll resize and post them for ya!

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I'm used to seeing 1/4 times

Do you have any times / speed for that ?

on the 1/8 to 1/4 mile conversion chart I looked up an 8.7 1/8 is about a 13.57 in the 1/4.
http://www.geocities.com/allstangs/Page.htm

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85 GT 4 SPD
Number 53715 of 76371
Best 1/4 15.816 @ 84.72

Accel 8.8mm wires, Accel 300+ Ignition box, Blaster Coil, NGK UR5, K&N, Short Shifter, High flow cat, Monochrome Caracus red, KYB shocks/struts, ST lowering springs, Poly Dogbone.

Coulee Region Fieros member(couleefiero.tripod.com)

That is seriously cool. You are going faster in a 1/8 mile than most of us in the 1/4 mile. Nice runs. Also who did your N* I want one badly. I think I will probably end up with the 4.9 though. :P

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If you find my advice useful please rate me.
87 GT
------------------------
88 4cyl 5spd
Home Page

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: That is seriously cool. You are going faster in a 1/8 mile than most of us in the 1/4 mile. Nice runs. Also who did your N* I want one badly. I think I will probably end up with the 4.9 though. :P

At first when I read this, I thought 'of course he's going to be faster in an 1/8 mile, it's half the distance of the 1/4. Then I thought about it again, you meant the MPH.

Sounds like a lot of fun. I'd like to run the 1/8 or 1/4 sometime.

------------------

I'm not buying the time from the chart. He was already doing 83 mph, that means he was covering a mile in 43.3 seconds or a 1/8th mile in 5.4 seconds. Assuming he simply quit accelerating, and his 1/8 time was 8.967, that would make his 1/4 time at 14.4 or thereabouts. I'd say it's a safe bet that he was still accelerating, and pretty strongly too, more than enough to beat the one second difference from what you posted.

My guess would be very low 13's, high 12's. I am curious as to how that chart was compiled though since it obviously was done with some type of formula and not just pulled out of thin air.

Will, you'll just have to take it to a real track!

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by RacinRob: on the 1/8 to 1/4 mile conversion chart I looked up an 8.7 1/8 is about a 13.57 in the 1/4. http://www.geocities.com/allstangs/Page.htm

quote Originally posted by CoolBlue87GT: I'm used to seeing 1/4 times Do you have any times / speed for that ?

Me too,, 1/8th mile times are sort of hard to gauge. is a 9 second 1/8th mile fast? I have no clue.

[This message has been edited by GMGW3 (edited 04-19-2003).]

I don't know if its extremely fast, but its damn fast. He was hitting over 80+mph on only an 1/8th mile, I'd barely hit that on the whole 1/4 mile.
Nice work man, makes me want to save even more money for my swap.

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1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
Auto, soon to be 5 spd Getrag from 88 z24, 0-60 high 8's. Good: Love the car, and has potential. Bad: needs work.
Bought for 2500$.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Also who did your N* I want one badly. I think I will probably end up with the 4.9 though. :P

I did my Northstar. A 4.9 would be a lot cheaper and easier.

The nearest 1/4 mile strip is 2 1/2 hours away. Getting there will have to wait until flight school eases up a little bit.

actually John, its pretty close. From my experience take the 1/8 mile time and multiply it by 1.55, and that will usually get you to within .1 of the actual time assuming no complications (shifting etc).

X,

You're just looking at the ET and ignoring how hard the engine is pulling at that point. Take a look at Will's last time slip. He ran an 8.967 with an 82.43 mph speed. The other guy ran a 9.053 with a 74.59 top speed.

Now you tell me, which car was pulling harder at the halfway point although their times were within .1 of each other? Do you think the race would have been that close at the end (using your 1.55 figure, a 13.9 vs a 14.0)? Not me. True, you can say that Will admittedly blew his launch, but judging by the slips, only by at most .1 or so.

Did you notice how close his speeds were from run to run (except for the second one where he blew a shift)? That's pretty impressive for a manual. Very consistent. Get that dialed in and you'll have a good bracket car.

1/8 mile times are great for dialing in your launches but don't have a lot to do with actually measuring power or 1/4 mile times in a lot of cases.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by fieroX: actually John, its pretty close. From my experience take the 1/8 mile time and multiply it by 1.55, and that will usually get you to within .1 of the actual time assuming no complications (shifting etc).

quote Originally posted by jstricker: X, You're just looking at the ET and ignoring how hard the engine is pulling at that point. Take a look at Will's last time slip. He ran an 8.967 with an 82.43 mph speed. The other guy ran a 9.053 with a 74.59 top speed. Now you tell me, which car was pulling harder at the halfway point although their times were within .1 of each other? Do you think the race would have been that close at the end (using your 1.55 figure, a 13.9 vs a 14.0)? Not me. True, you can say that Will admittedly blew his launch, but judging by the slips, only by at most .1 or so.

John you are correct, but you also have to look at the 60 foot times.

ok, the other car had him by .3 at the 60 foot, this alone is worth .6 in the 1/4 mile, or about .4 in the 1/8. True Will caught back up and passed the other car by the finish, and this is noticable by the mph difference. If he were to maintain his current rate of acceleration I would put him .3-.4 ahead of the other car at the finish in the 1/4 mile.

My best 1/8 mile time was 7.37 (not sure of the mph our tracks 1/8 speed sensor doesnt work) and this was on my 11.63 pass.

I forgot to mention that I didn't play with tire pressure at all, I had a full load of junk (spare, jumper cables, tow rope, and sunroof) in the front compartment, and a half tank of gas. If I ever have the time to get there again, I'll play with that stuff.

Will,

Heck, I don't think you need any excuses. You have a solid mid-13 car here and it's a true run what ya brung setup. That's not bad at all, especially considering that the engine's got 100K on it.

Wonder what the guys with the 3800SC's ran similarly configured? That is, bone stock engine, run what ya brung tires, etc. That's not said to start a flame war, it really is a valid question. I've seen what X can run, but his is far from stock. Likewise, the SBC guys could address the same question. Something in the 300 hp range, what's it run? Crazy Dave has a great car, but his engine (and it's cost) is well beyond anything like that. Tina's likewise.

I like all these cars. It's nice to have so many options. I'm just hooked on the hi-tech look of the DOHC and if I'm doing that, it's going to be as big as it can be, and that's the Northstar. That's my choice. Fortunately, opinions vary and variety is the spice of life.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Will: I forgot to mention that I didn't play with tire pressure at all, I had a full load of junk (spare, jumper cables, tow rope, and sunroof) in the front compartment, and a half tank of gas. If I ever have the time to get there again, I'll play with that stuff.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I'm just hooked on the hi-tech look of the DOHC and if I'm doing that, it's going to be as big as it can be, and that's the Northstar.

LT5

Street trim is what I meant to run, after all, I can't take my spare out and blow my tires down at every stoplight I just figured somebody might have been curious since I didn't mention it at first. Those will just be a few more things to play with after I sort a few other things out.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-20-2003).]

Will,

True enough. But I like to do it with things that are actually obtainable at a reasonable cost.

I'm not sure why, since my budget generally goes out the window the minute I start ordering parts, but it's the thought that counts, right?? 8-)

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Will: LT5 Street trim is what I meant to run, after all, I can't take my spare out and blow my tires down at every stoplight I just figured somebody might have been curious since I didn't mention it at first. Those will just be a few more things to play with after I sort a few other things out. [This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-20-2003).]

My STOCK SC3800 mated to the 4T60E AUTO tranny ran 13.7's stock in "street" trim. And thats with my heavyweight 1988 GT.
My brothers"LiLDV1L" is now running 12.6's with 3.25 pulley(150.00), and high ratio rockers(300.00). I must say that for the bang for the buck factor the SC3800 is hard to beat.

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Purple 1988 GT
Supercharged 3800 Series II V6

Best ET with 3.4 pulley-13.21@102mph

NO NO NO, THAT DOESN'T COUNT, YOU DIDN'T POST TIME SLIPS!!!

j/k

That's quick, particularly since you're probably heavier than Will with the 4T60E and the '88 GT.

Just goes to show ya', whatever you shove in there "we're havin' some fun now". I'd probably have to agree with you on the bang for the buck, although parts for the SBC are so darn cheap the V8 guys can make that argument too. It's pretty easy to make 350 crank hp for under $2,000 in the SBC and, if you're smart, closer to 400 hp. I doubt there'd be much weight difference if the SBC was put into an '85 SE with a manual either.

You pays your money and you makes your choices. (But you still don't have four cams spinning over 32 valves)

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by NOS3800: My STOCK SC3800 mated to the 4T60E AUTO tranny ran 13.7's stock in "street" trim. And thats with my heavyweight 1988 GT. My brothers"LiLDV1L" is now running 12.6's with 3.25 pulley(150.00), and high ratio rockers(300.00). I must say that for the bang for the buck factor the SC3800 is hard to beat.

Give me a low tech pushrod motor with a single cam and a blower over a high tech dual cam motor anyday. Easier to mod and easier to fix when things go wrong. Like NOS3800 said my car ran a 12.6 at 106 mph ( i made another run at 107 mph) on street tires and street trim. Came right off the street and did my thing. Heres the slip if you want one. I am 109 and the other car was a WRX aswell.

As for a pretty much stock 350...a friend of mine has one mated to a 4 speed Muncie in a 85 GT. He runs in the 13.2 range.

I think if Will launches his Northstar better then he'll definitely have a low 13 high 12 second car. Did you have problems with traction? When you replace youer tires try some Nittos...they are awesome street strip tires.

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Earl Sessions
1985 Fiero w/ 1998 Supercharged 3.8 V-6
Best ET: 12.689 @ 105.91mph


"NO Juice....Just BOOST!"

Times look impressive to me Will. Im sure youll start taking tenths off if you start tuning.

Congrats.

quote Originally posted by Will: I forgot to mention that I didn't play with tire pressure at all, I had a full load of junk (spare, jumper cables, tow rope, and sunroof) in the front compartment, and a half tank of gas. If I ever have the time to get there again, I'll play with that stuff.

Just out of curiousity, what did your engine come out of and what did you have to give for it? I'm curious as before I started on the Northstar, I priced some 3800SC's around here and they were more expensive than I could build a SBC for.

I really like the 3800, have one in my Riviera. Only downside on it is the speed limiter shuts me off at about 109.

I'm not even going to guess what I'm going to have in my Northstar yet, but I know I have $3K in it and I'm still waiting on Total Seal to send me my piston rings. Pretty much everything else is here and paid for to build the long block though, and it's nowhere near stock. CHRFab cams and springs, new valves, ported, reground crank, new oil pump, lots of other stuff.

Just no way to do it cheaper unless you just put one in from a running car and tune that to start with. Personally, considering Will's is bone stock with 100K on it, and a 275hp chip, I think he's running well now and will be doing better after some tuning.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by lildevil: Give me a low tech pushrod motor with a single cam and a blower over a high tech dual cam motor anyday. Easier to mod and easier to fix when things go wrong. Like NOS3800 said my car ran a 12.6 at 106 mph ( i made another run at 107 mph) on street tires and street trim. Came right off the street and did my thing. Heres the slip if you want one. I am 109 and the other car was a WRX aswell. As for a pretty much stock 350...a friend of mine has one mated to a 4 speed Muncie in a 85 GT. He runs in the 13.2 range. I think if Will launches his Northstar better then he'll definitely have a low 13 high 12 second car. Did you have problems with traction? When you replace youer tires try some Nittos...they are awesome street strip tires.

1/8th mile times of 8.9's are what I remember the faster among the then-new 1994 275hp LT1 fbods with 4L60E automatics and 3.42 gears were running in 1995, which ran about 13.7-13.9 in the 1/4. I would say the 13.5 is a highly optimistic estimate and anything lower than that is, as C. Montgomery Burns would put it, utter tomfoolery. I'm a staunch defender of pushrod technology, but I think it's obvious to anyone that you would have done better with even a basic LT1, as a low-13 is typical for LT1/5spd Fieros.

John, what you're failing to see in your 1/4-1/8 comparison is that far less acceleration occurs from 660-1320 feet relative to 0-660ft, because you have the gearing working for you to a much lesser degree and have aerodynamic forces working against you to a much greater degree. You've been on this planet longer than I have and I respect your experience, but I believe your hopes for your own project are giving you the proverbial rose-colored glasses.

Will, I think that 275hp computer is working harder against you than you think. I hope that whatever it is about this engine that appeals to you Northstar fanatics makes up for its lack of power.

Dave

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- Electron Blue '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 1): Before After ZZ430 Ram-Port FI--Wanna Race? Follow it here on the Forum!
Pics, Vids, Specs & more at the ZZ430 Fiero webpage
- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- '98 6-speed Corvette Coupe

Ok, Ive seen all the fussin over times. I am lookin to run low 12s or possibly high 11s. If I am correct, fierox is making alittle over 300 hp at the wheels and he has ran some impressive number on that power level. I will have a northstar that will make around 300hp to the wheels and run a 4T60E with 3.73 gears. Do you think I will be in the lower 12s maybe 11s with that setup. I will have adequate traction too.

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86 FIERO GT, puttin a N* and tons of other goodies. STAY TUNED

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I'm not even going to guess what I'm going to have in my Northstar yet, but I know I have $3K in it and I'm still waiting on Total Seal to send me my piston rings. Pretty much everything else is here and paid for to build the long block though, and it's nowhere near stock. CHRFab cams and springs, new valves, ported, reground crank, new oil pump, lots of other stuff. Just no way to do it cheaper unless you just put one in from a running car and tune that to start with. Personally, considering Will's is bone stock with 100K on it, and a 275hp chip, I think he's running well now and will be doing better after some tuning. John Stricker

John, what do you plan to use for the ECM? CHRFab's modified Holley setup is pricy, but I think it'd be worth it for the support and basically bolt-in setup. I'm going to be heading down this road soon and I'm just looking for some other people's ideas on the engine management side of things.

Also, which cams did you get?

Bryce
88 GT

quote Originally posted by crazyd: 1/8th mile times of 8.9's are what I remember the faster among the then-new 1994 275hp LT1 fbods with 4L60E automatics and 3.42 gears were running in 1995, which ran about 13.7-13.9 in the 1/4. I would say the 13.5 is a highly optimistic estimate and anything lower than that is, as C. Montgomery Burns would put it, utter tomfoolery. I'm a staunch defender of pushrod technology, but I think it's obvious to anyone that you would have done better with even a basic LT1, as a low-13 is typical for LT1/5spd Fieros. John, what you're failing to see in your 1/4-1/8 comparison is that far less acceleration occurs from 660-1320 feet relative to 0-660ft, because you have the gearing working for you to a much lesser degree and have aerodynamic forces working against you to a much greater degree. You've been on this planet longer than I have and I respect your experience, but I believe your hopes for your own project are giving you the proverbial rose-colored glasses. Will, I think that 275hp computer is working harder against you than you think. I hope that whatever it is about this engine that appeals to you Northstar fanatics makes up for its lack of power. Dave

Its great and all that your pushrod motor makes lots of power. really im impressed that the thing can hold together at 6500rpm. But what about 8000rpm or even 9000rpm. Yea i know of SOME pushrod motors that can do it but they are race motors and arent on the same spectrum as your zz430, and you know that.

And while were at it we all know that the zz430 wasnt even close cheap. So here is my challange. Tell me your final bill on the zz430 and let me build a N* fiero for the same cost and then bet that cost which has the best performance.

Ill place my money on a DOHC N* spinning happily at 9000rpm

Dave,

I'm not really looking at it through rose colored glasses, I'm just pretty certain that 275 hp at the crank in 3,000# is faster than a 13.9.

Of course acceleration tapers off and it does it pretty quickly. I have a spreadsheet I use whose author I don't know or I'd give them credit that works out pretty close most of the time (barring missed shifts, blown launches, etc.). It shows a 3000# car that runs 13.9 will be putting out 221 bhp at the wheels and have a 98 mph speed. If we bump that up to Will's estimate of 254 at the wheels, that goes to 13.25 @103 mph. When he gets it tuned to the 300 hp configuration (270 or so at the wheels), that's about a 12.95@105 mph.

To me, all of those are believable numbers.

(BTW, to run 10's in a Fiero, you need about 600 hp at the rear wheels, and be able to get it hooked up)

I'm dying to see yours run with the clocks on Dave. It's got to be a rush on par with the Econorail we used to run many, MANY years ago. So much power, so few pounds.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by crazyd: 1/8th mile times of 8.9's are what I remember the faster among the then-new 1994 275hp LT1 fbods with 4L60E automatics and 3.42 gears were running in 1995, which ran about 13.7-13.9 in the 1/4. I would say the 13.5 is a highly optimistic estimate and anything lower than that is, as C. Montgomery Burns would put it, utter tomfoolery. I'm a staunch defender of pushrod technology, but I think it's obvious to anyone that you would have done better with even a basic LT1, as a low-13 is typical for LT1/5spd Fieros. John, what you're failing to see in your 1/4-1/8 comparison is that far less acceleration occurs from 660-1320 feet relative to 0-660ft, because you have the gearing working for you to a much lesser degree and have aerodynamic forces working against you to a much greater degree. You've been on this planet longer than I have and I respect your experience, but I believe your hopes for your own project are giving you the proverbial rose-colored glasses. Will, I think that 275hp computer is working harder against you than you think. I hope that whatever it is about this engine that appeals to you Northstar fanatics makes up for its lack of power. Dave

Here we go with the engine comparisons... wcapman ran a 13.1 in his car and missed 3rd gear. His engine is the 275hp verson. The potential of the northstar is nothing short of amazing.. I wish arthred (ben cannon) would still post! CHRFAB's 288 deg cams with some head work add 75hp!!! I recently picked up a set of these cams for my N* project from Chris Moore. Pricey @ $780 for the cam and lifters , but the power increase along with the mile high linear powerband is well worth it!!

just for the record , Chris's Automatic N* with body mods , AC , full letahter interior (a real luxo crusier) ran 13.3's , Jay grande's N* automatic also ran a 13.3.

So some of the slanted views that the N* is only capable of high 13's and thats no faster than a F-Body is BS. With a bit of tuning and finess this motor has as much potential as anything you can swap into a fiero. The N*'s problem when it comes to Fiero swaps is lack of development. It's not like a 3.8 swap or a 350 , you see lots of those and people like NOS3800,Lildevil and FieroX have been constantly tuning and tinkering with their cars to get the most out of them. The northstar community is a fraction of the size of the 3.8C crowd , not to mention the 350 crowd. Food For thought.

my 1996 vin 9 300hp N*
CHRfab 288 cams to be installed
holley commander 950
4spd 3.65 tranny
75 Shot of NOS.

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Jonathan McCreery
86 GT Northstar
86 SE SOLD!

SAVE THE SHAUN!!!

[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 04-21-2003).]

Hopefully that lack on knowledge on the northstar will change as I get mine in the car. I will be constantly tinkering with the motor and having different chips burned for it. Im tryin to get the techs at GM to share some knowledge or atleast some chips.

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86 FIERO GT, puttin a N* and tons of other goodies. STAY TUNED

quote Originally posted by lildevil: Heres the slip if you want one. I am 109 and the other car was a WRX aswell. As for a pretty much stock 350...a friend of mine has one mated to a 4 speed Muncie in a 85 GT. He runs in the 13.2 range. I think if Will launches his Northstar better then he'll definitely have a low 13 high 12 second car. Did you have problems with traction? When you replace youer tires try some Nittos...they are awesome street strip tires.

That WRX driver Sucks ASS. The car should crack 1.7 60 fts on stock tires and be low 14 sec , if not high 13's with an abusive enough driver... not to say you still wouldn't have spanked him

JM
(I sell Subies )

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Will, I think that 275hp computer is working harder against you than you think. I hope that whatever it is about this engine that appeals to you Northstar fanatics makes up for its lack of power.

Slammed said exactly what I wanted to. The engineering knowledge pool regarding the Northstar swap is in its infancy compared to the SBC swap. Since the Northstar was never offered with a manual, the electronics are not nearly as easy to do. I am watching an EPROM burner on EBAY. When I get one, I'm going to burn a 300 HP calibration I have on my computer into it. That'll be a good start. There are people on the GMECM list who know enough about this program to point me in the direction I need to go to start tweaking it. Allen Cline, a GM engineer, told me that an otherwise stock 300HP engine is capable of 320 HP with an aggressive timing map. Advancing the intake cams 5 degrees (the same thing that Carrol Shelby did to the Aurora 4.0 in his Series 1) is good for 75 HP. I've been talking a little with Alan Johnson of CHRFab about custom billet roller cams for the Y2K+ cylinder heads. There's a lot that's out there. I just haven't had the time to do it because of flight school. But that will be over in July.

You say you like the Getrag's gearing and it works better as the engine revs higher. Imagine having an extra 2000-2500 RPM in every gear.

And as for times, I could knock 0.3 off my 60' with decent tires, which would put me down to ~8.3 (best run Friday was 8.7) in the 1/8. It's my first time at the strip and there's a good bit of optimising to do.

My dad works for a caddy dealership and he talked with the representives from GM and they gave him acouple names to talk to about northstars and 4T80s that they have been modifying. He was told they have numorous 4T80s running a paddle shifting setup. I will be seeing soon about getting a chip burned that will run the 4t60e I have and have more aggressive fuel and timing maps.

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86 FIERO GT, puttin a N* and tons of other goodies. STAY TUNED

jstriker...when you asked about how much the motor was were you talking to me? If you were heres what i paid...

2500 dollars for a 7000 mile motor,trans,pcm,axles,wiring, and anything else i needed off the donor car. It was a 98 Buick GS

I swapped in a stock 97 GTP PCM ( easier to modify at the time)
200 dollars for west coast mounts

250 dollar roller rockers

100 3.25 pulley.

When comparing these motors i think you need to take into account what they will be used for. My car is used for daily driving and drag racing so a HIGH torque motor is what i would look for. If you were looking for all out high speed i would thik the Northstar is the way to go...the Small block Chevy is the best of both.

------------------
Earl Sessions
1985 Fiero w/ 1998 Supercharged 3.8 V-6
Best ET: 12.689 @ 105.91mph


"NO Juice....Just BOOST!"

Hi,
I really don't do much talking on this forum but I have to defend Will on this. (You to Jon) I have been doing these Northstar conversions for almost 7 years now. I am still driving my first creation which I did FROM SCRATCH. I have done nothing to this setup except beat the crap out of it. It just keeps going. I take it down the strip at least 3 times a year at about 3 to 9 times each time I go. I also drive 2 hours to the event every time. My best times are 13.3 in the quarter and 8.6 in the eighth. I whoop on all kinds of trailered cars. That is the best. Then I just drive home with the AC on and the cruise set and they have to load up their gas hogs. I built a car for a gentleman and he ran the best time that I have seen with a stock non-modified Northstar. 13.1 in the quarter. The Northstar is the best ALL around conversion. It is very reliable, never breaks, gets good gas mileage,has a V-8 Sound that you can't get anywhere else, it is all aluminum, and you are part of a small group to have them. I like to be different. I understand that there are many people that don't want to spend money on this forum which makes the Northstar not there first choice in conversions. The other conversions are fine but I just want something that many people don't have. I like the engineering aspects of the Northstar. It is the future. The Northstar is a work of art.

Chris Moore
ASE Master Auto Tech and Auto Instructor

I can't wait to see how Ben's N* runs! The N* is such a different beast from other swaps, I'm thinking a standalone ECM is the way to go (i.e. Holley Commander 950). Yeah, it's expensive, but it sure would make tuning much easier. I believe the N* has the potential to outpower even a SBC. I don't know about it's reliability at that power level, though. I'd love to have a 7500-8000 rpm 400HP DOHC V8 in my Fiero. Of course, I'd also love a 6500 rpm 400HP SBC, too. (I suppose I could live with a 400HP 3800SC... )

I think the SBC may be easier to work on and maintain due to the hugeness of the N* heads, but it's all a trade off on what you want.

Will, I think you've definitely only scratched the surface. I'm looking forward to hearing how your car develops.

quote Originally posted by Neal: Its great and all that your pushrod motor makes lots of power. really im impressed that the thing can hold together at 6500rpm. But what about 8000rpm or even 9000rpm. Yea i know of SOME pushrod motors that can do it but they are race motors and arent on the same spectrum as your zz430, and you know that.

The point you overlooked is that you don't have to spin a small-block to 8-9000rpm to make power with it. You can do it at 6-7000rpm because a pushrod 350 or 355 or 383 or 406 or 427 or whatever size you want is just plain better at making torque than any Northstar is at the same RPM for the same investment.

Four valve heads are by no means the future. They've been around for decades - BMW had them in the 70's - and they still have the same limitations they always did. They're still large, heavy, complex and expensive. What's so exciting about four smaller valves in a smaller bore versus two large valves in a larger bore? That's why they're so much more common on smaller engines, where those disadvantages aren't as severe. But in the long run in engineering, the simplest and most cost effective technology that achieves its goals is what sticks around.

quote And while were at it we all know that the zz430 wasnt even close cheap. So here is my challange. Tell me your final bill on the zz430 and let me build a N* fiero for the same cost and then bet that cost which has the best performance. Ill place my money on a DOHC N* spinning happily at 9000rpm

You guys seem to forget that a cam upgrade means four times as many cams and twice as many parts everywhere else in the valvetrain - springs, rockers, etc. It adds up a lot faster than a pushrod motor. That's your first problem with comparing a Northstar dollar-to-dollar with an SBC.

My engine, injection system, harness, and ECM were all purchased brand-spankin' new from GM and S&P, and that's why it cost so much. I don't know if it's the most expensive engine Archie's ever done for a customer, but I'm sure it's in the top 3. Its cost alone will ensure its continued uniqueness. I had no desire to jack around with any used parts on this car. It wasn't built on a budget, we just used the best of the best and worried about the cost later. To level the playing field in the way you suggest, you would need to purchase an all-new 2003 Northstar crate engine complete with everything necessary to install it in a Fiero. Are you sure you'd still like to make that bet? It is entirely possible to cobble together a lower-budget ZZ430 with junkyard parts and eBay purchases, which is what I'm sure you were thinking you would try to do to compare it to my engine, but that wouldn't be level at all.

Dave

I am not flaming here, just have a few questions on the N*. I agree that the N* is an untapped entity. There are no 12 second N* Fieros yet?? Thats amazing. There are 12 sec SC3800's, SBC's, and even 2.8's. But no Northstar yet. Who will be first! The race is on.
I heard that in the N* conversion, it is not possible to check/fill the oil because of the location of the fill spout? Is that true?
What are the prices you are getting on the used motors?
And finally, I am not trashing the motor, but my friend works at a Caddy dealer and he says that the motors are NOT reliable, and are consistently having coolant and cracked block issues. I guess its who you talk too.
SLAMMED< when you getttingthat thing on the road? I can't believe you are still going to spray that thing.
When will CrazyD get some timeslips so he can backup his talk?

The stock filler cap ends up under the rear window. I use a slender funnel to fill mine through the PCV grommet in the rear bank. I can check the oil just fine with the stock dipstick.

I got my engine complete for $2000 about 4 years ago. They're cheaper now.

wcapman ran 13.1 or 13.2 with a missed shift and soft launch. If he doesn't go again and do it first, I think I can crack 12's with good tires and good tuning.