Yep, I was asking you. I shopped here for a 3800SC and the best I could find on a 10,000 mile motor was $2K, and that was without the trans and stuff you got. I think our salvage yards here are crap, but that's me.
My dad totaled his LeSabre with a deer, didn't hurt the engine or radiator, he drove it home. I could have bought the whole car for $1,400, but it wasn't a SC engine.
So you have 3 grand and change in yours. That's decent for the times you run. More than decent.
Thanks for the information, to do it around here it looks like it's either the insurance pool or have it shipped from someplace where the yards don't think they're selling gold instead of auto parts.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by lildevil:
jstriker...when you asked about how much the motor was were you talking to me? If you were heres what i paid...
2500 dollars for a 7000 mile motor,trans,pcm,axles,wiring, and anything else i needed off the donor car. It was a 98 Buick GS
I swapped in a stock 97 GTP PCM ( easier to modify at the time) 200 dollars for west coast mounts
250 dollar roller rockers
100 3.25 pulley.
When comparing these motors i think you need to take into account what they will be used for. My car is used for daily driving and drag racing so a HIGH torque motor is what i would look for. If you were looking for all out high speed i would thik the Northstar is the way to go...the Small block Chevy is the best of both.
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12:17 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Not exactly. The Northstar doesn't have any pushrods or rocker arms. The reason there are so many valves and other parts it that's where the engine makes it's power, in the heads.
I don't think anyone that's bought the cams and springs can EVER forget that there are four of them!
Because it didn't come from the GM factory doesn't necessarily mean that it's cobbled up. But you already knew that.
WRT your comment on the components, I don't agree. My engine will be built to new, not rebuilt specs. It will have rpm capability that the pushrod engine will never dream of for the same money. I'd guess that by the time I'm done, your checkbook and mine will be lightened about the same amount though.
On the other side of that coin, I can tell you that GM crate engines are not all they're cracked up to be all the time. If they were, my 3.4HT wouldn't be using a quart of oil every 160 miles with less than 10,000 miles on it. (which GM will not cover under warranty because it uses the Fiero injection system, as if that caused the oil consumption problem) Of course, I think that's an exception too, but it can happen with a new crate engine just like anything else. The fact that it uses oil wouldn't keep me from buying another crate engine, but the way GM screwed me over on the warranty will. I've bought my last crate engine from GM.
BTW, did that ZZ430 come with the port injection system? That is, is it a "RamJet"? No? Guess what, you don't have a warranty either..............
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by crazyd:
You guys seem to forget that a cam upgrade means four times as many cams and twice as many parts everywhere else in the valvetrain - springs, rockers, etc. It adds up a lot faster than a pushrod motor. That's your first problem with comparing a Northstar dollar-to-dollar with an SBC.
My engine, injection system, harness, and ECM were all purchased brand-spankin' new from GM and S&P, and that's why it cost so much. I don't know if it's the most expensive engine Archie's ever done for a customer, but I'm sure it's in the top 3. Its cost alone will ensure its continued uniqueness. I had no desire to jack around with any used parts on this car. It wasn't built on a budget, we just used the best of the best and worried about the cost later. To level the playing field in the way you suggest, you would need to purchase an all-new 2003 Northstar crate engine complete with everything necessary to install it in a Fiero. Are you sure you'd still like to make that bet? It is entirely possible to cobble together a lower-budget ZZ430 with junkyard parts and eBay purchases, which is what I'm sure you were thinking you would try to do to compare it to my engine, but that wouldn't be level at all.
Yea after taking out all the valves in the heads and reseating them, having alotta valves is not fun. For everyone with a N*, they are prone to pickin up trash on the seats or the exhaust valves getting pitted and not seating well. Some of yall have motors together already but for those that aren't, the easy way to tell the seats is you spray some carb or brake cleaner on the back of the valves and see if it seeps or sprays through to the combustion chamber.
------------------ 86 FIERO GT, puttin a N* and tons of other goodies. STAY TUNED
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09:24 AM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5550 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
And finally, I am not trashing the motor, but my friend works at a Caddy dealer and he says that the motors are NOT reliable, and are consistently having coolant and cracked block issues. I guess its who you talk too.
When will CrazyD get some timeslips so he can backup his talk?
Yeah, it depends on who you talk to. I was a Cadi Tech for about a year. Not very long, but I did do several Jobs where we had to replace the heads due to cracking. I would say that 99% of these had over 100k on them and still had the original coolant. I wouldnt call the engine unreliable by any means.
Think about it this way. The northstar has Changed VERY little since it came out in '93. How many other motors can you say havent changed in the first 10 years of its existance?
Btw: read daves thread on the zz430 build up. Sounds like the trip to the track might be coming up soon.
also, I got the opportunity to drive a hot 400 sbc powered fiero this past weekend. There is no replacement for good ole Dinosaur powered TORQUE. one touch of the throttle and your eyes are pushing back there sockets. No waiting for the engine to wind up. Now thats fun.
Turn the head so it sits combustion chamber up. Leave the old plugs in. Doesn't have to be perfectly level, just so cleaning solvent will completely cover the valve faces. Take a blow gun and shoot air through the intake and exhaust ports directly at the back of the valves. You don't have to put a rag in the port or anything, just shoot air at them.
The most minute leak will show up as bubbles coming up from the solvent. This really does work, and it's very fast to do.
My exhaust valves were pitted but the seats were excellent. I replaced all the valves as I wanted to build it to new specs. My guides were still at new specs.
As far as reliability is concerned, after the first couple of years of fixing the leaks, there have just been darn few recalls or service bulletins on the engines. Some of the things that were changed over the years, that I've updated mine to or they already were:
Rods changed from forged to powdered metal Oil pump redesigned Harmonic balancer redesigned Different assembly procedures to address leaks and new gaskets and o-rings Changed the intermediate timing sprocket design slightly Piston ring design changed with accompanying change in piston ring grooves
That's about all I can think of off the top of my head until they went to the roller lifters, which can't just be substituted.
Most of these cars run well over 100,000 miles with absolutely nothing being done to them.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 86 FIERO GT:
Yea after taking out all the valves in the heads and reseating them, having alotta valves is not fun. For everyone with a N*, they are prone to pickin up trash on the seats or the exhaust valves getting pitted and not seating well. Some of yall have motors together already but for those that aren't, the easy way to tell the seats is you spray some carb or brake cleaner on the back of the valves and see if it seeps or sprays through to the combustion chamber.
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02:50 PM
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
(BTW, to run 10's in a Fiero, you need about 600 hp at the rear wheels, and be able to get it hooked up)
John, Ive estimated my engine to make 335 hp and 375 tq at the wheels as it ran 11.63 at 115.9. I dyno'd 301 and 351 the day I ran the 12.004. So Im guessing by the time I go 10.99 I should have about 390 hp and 425 tq at the wheels which would be about 475 hp and 520 tq at the crank. This will happen in 2003 I promise. Just a matter of time now
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06:48 PM
Apr 23rd, 2003
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
Originally posted by jstricker: On the other side of that coin, I can tell you that GM crate engines are not all they're cracked up to be all the time. If they were, my 3.4HT wouldn't be using a quart of oil every 160 miles with less than 10,000 miles on it. (which GM will not cover under warranty because it uses the Fiero injection system, as if that caused the oil consumption problem) Of course, I think that's an exception too, but it can happen with a new crate engine just like anything else. The fact that it uses oil wouldn't keep me from buying another crate engine, but the way GM screwed me over on the warranty will. I've bought my last crate engine from GM.
BTW, did that ZZ430 come with the port injection system? That is, is it a "RamJet"? No? Guess what, you don't have a warranty either..............
John Stricker
The 3.4HT is intended only for use as an emissions legal replacement for carbed 2.8's in S-10's. Not for TBI 2.8's in s-10's not for multiport 2.8's in f-bodies. And definately not for cars you have to drill holes in the block so you can install the engine. The zz430 on the other hand isn't a specified service replacement motor, so they're not going to be as picky about what car you have it in or what intake you have on it.
I love the idea that because you have a 350 with a lot of money into it your unique! I would say the majority of the Fiero engine swaps runnng around are 350's that the owner put a lot of money into. A FI 350 no matter how fancy the injection (ingliese , Kinsler are the exception) is a FI 350. You want unique... you need to have multiple cams (live in the now) or a blower (3.8SC) 350's make lots of power and sound great , but are NOT unique.
Unique... the 250hp Ecotech (Saab) motor that a Fierorace list member is dropping into his 88 coupe. Unique is something no one has done before. Granted there are many different variations of 350's ...there all 350's.
The world does not revolve around this forum..and if your going to be questioning peoples motives and the performance of their vehicle , perhaps you should take yours to the strip first. Assuming that because you have spent mega bucks on a car makes it fast is a mistake made by many many people.
Yeah be unique everyone swaps motors into fieros. do a yugo swap, that is unique. It is all a matter of point of view. which motor which car which aspiration
I love the idea that because you have a 350 with a lot of money into it your unique! I would say the majority of the Fiero engine swaps runnng around are 350's that the owner put a lot of money into. A FI 350 no matter how fancy the injection (ingliese , Kinsler are the exception) is a FI 350. You want unique... you need to have multiple cams (live in the now) or a blower (3.8SC) 350's make lots of power and sound great , but are NOT unique.
Unique... the 250hp Ecotech (Saab) motor that a Fierorace list member is dropping into his 88 coupe. Unique is something no one has done before. Granted there are many different variations of 350's ...there all 350's.
The world does not revolve around this forum..and if your going to be questioning peoples motives and the performance of their vehicle , perhaps you should take yours to the strip first. Assuming that because you have spent mega bucks on a car makes it fast is a mistake made by many many people.
JM
Jeez JM, I had no idea you were such a ****witted troglodyte. I guess you've never pointed your callow sarcasm at me before so I didn't really notice.
So what you're saying is, according to your rules, nobody can offer their insight on the performance of someone else's car unless they've taken their own car to the dragstrip first? So if you don't have a better timeslip, then you're wrong?
Why, in your world, must something be built on the cheap to be fast? Is it inconceivable to you that someone might know enough about engineering to know that doing something right is the most expensive way to do it? Would it be more acceptable to you if it were built with used swap-meet and junkyard parts?
And what bothers you so much about something you don't have being unique? Are your parents not giving you enough attention that this is your desperate plea for some? Certainly, all of us can't wait to build something that would qualify to your standards as unique. We'll get right on it.
Dave
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11:02 AM
PFF
System Bot
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
I'm aware of what the 3.4 was built for. I also talked to GM Performance Parts service tech about the warranty.
He flat out told me that the GM performance crate engines would have NO warranty if they were equipped with fuel injection unless they came that way from GM. IOW, unless it's a RamJet, if you put injection on it, you're on your own.
Now as to the warranty on the 3.4, I'll quote from GM's own words "GM Performance Parts crate engines and short blocks carry a 12 month limited parts only warranty. Parts are warranted against defects in material and workmanship. This warranty specifically excludes engines and short blocks used in racing, any competition, or marine use, and parts that fail as a result of alteration".
From their information on the 3.4HT engine "Technical Notes: This is for engines with carburetors only, not released for TBI usage. This engine does not have a clutch boss on the side of the block for standard transmission application."
Now, show me where it says that putting injection on the engine will void the warranty? Also, it says plainly in the warranty that if the failure is the result of altered parts, THAT won't be covered, but not that it voids the entire warranty.
Had I broken a corner of the block off mounting the starter, or had I melted a hole in a piston because the intake didn't fit properly, those things I can easily see how they wouldn't be covered. But to say that an oil consumption problem won't be covered because the Fiero's MPFI went on top is simply showing that the crate engines have no warranty.
I'd suggest that there isn't a single performance crate engine out there that is going to be warrantied by GM. Certainly not in a Fiero as, except for a very few engines, ther are all meant for "Unless specified by GM, these engines should only be used in 1973 and earlier pre-emissions vehicles." That IS in the warranty.
I don't have a problem with this IF GM had simply said "hey, guys, you and I both know these are performance engines and they'll get flogged from time to time. You're on your own." But they didn't say that. They made statements as to what their warranty covered and what would make it be partially or completely void. In our case, we didn't do anything internal to the motor. We never even had the pan off. Whatever the oil consumption problem is, it's GM's fault, but they're not going to stand behind it. I paid a premium for the engine specifically BECAUSE it had a factory warranty and Chris was going to have it at school where we couldn't work on it. If he had problems, then he could take it to a dealer. Not so, apparently. For the money I have in the complete engine conversion I could have easily put in a SBC that I built myself. It may have used oil as well, but at least I'd know who was standing the warranty.........ME.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Leper:
The 3.4HT is intended only for use as an emissions legal replacement for carbed 2.8's in S-10's. Not for TBI 2.8's in s-10's not for multiport 2.8's in f-bodies. And definately not for cars you have to drill holes in the block so you can install the engine. The zz430 on the other hand isn't a specified service replacement motor, so they're not going to be as picky about what car you have it in or what intake you have on it.
Jeez JM, I had no idea you were such a ****witted troglodyte. I guess you've never pointed your callow sarcasm at me before so I didn't really notice.
So what you're saying is, according to your rules, nobody can offer their insight on the performance of someone else's car unless they've taken their own car to the dragstrip first? So if you don't have a better timeslip, then you're wrong?
Why, in your world, must something be built on the cheap to be fast? Is it inconceivable to you that someone might know enough about engineering to know that doing something right is the most expensive way to do it? Would it be more acceptable to you if it were built with used swap-meet and junkyard parts?
And what bothers you so much about something you don't have being unique? Are your parents not giving you enough attention that this is your desperate plea for some? Certainly, all of us can't wait to build something that would qualify to your standards as unique. We'll get right on it.
Dave
Ohh Dave..ever the drama Queen... Yes a fiero with a v8 is unique to the masses , to the fiero community. no. I think this is where you may have been a bit confused by my comments. don't get me wrong ,I certainly respect your taste in vehicles and engine choices. I was just stating that while you may have spent a lot of money on your car , it certainly doesn't mean it's unique in it's own right. Spending money on a car doesn't mean you are different , it's what you spend the money , and further more the time on that counts. Cars like Skitime's , while having a fairly common engine swap are a great example of being set apart from the crowd. He took something fairly ordinary to the Fiero community and made it extraordinary , not by throwing money into it hoping for a trophy , but adding his own personal touches and style to the vehicle. That vehicle to me is unique. A Fi'd 350 crate motor with electron blue paint and some nice wheels certainly qualify as unique in some aspects , but not exactly outside the norm on modified Fiero's.
As for the comments on 1/4 mile. you seem to love to argue the performance of you car , and your comment about the northstars lack of performance in relation to LT1's certainly illustrates that. At best that comment was an uneducated shot in the dark. I merely brought up the fact that in order to gauge someone’s performance as poor in comparison to other vehicles , one should test their own vehicles capabilities, instead of assuming that since you have a truck load of money into the car it is a performance dynamo.
And finally , the comments about my parents not giving me enough attention? I am 25yrs old and haven't lived at home for 7 years now. I could get into this further , but whats the point really... enough people disagree with you , a negative rating appears , and back to the vette forum you head. For the record , I was one of the people who gave you a positive rating , because I believe we are all entitled to our opinions... and positive it shall stay. that’s the fun of this forum ,if we all agreed I would never read it
JM
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04:07 PM
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
Originally posted by crazyd: So if you don't have a better timeslip, then you're wrong? Dave
No this cant be right, cause im always wrong, yet one of the fastest. So Dave, are you going to take that bohemouth of a machine out to the track sometime this summer? The 3800s represent, the N*'s are out getting numbers, but there arent any results from the zz430 yet. I think the people of the forum should know all ends of the spectrum, so they can decide which engine will be best for them
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06:09 PM
Leper No longer registered
Report this Post04-23-2003 08:28 PM
Leper
posts Member since
Did you get your car fixed yet, X?
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08:28 PM
Apr 24th, 2003
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
