Among the other additions taking plase to the twin charged 1988 3800 Coupe that is currently being built, it was decided that this would be a perfect time to go through the transmission and ensure that everything can hold up to the power we plan on transmitting through it.
Here is our candidate, a 1988 282 5 speed Getrag transmission. From the appearance of the case it fully shows all of it's 289,000 miles it has seen.
First start off by removing the shift and select levers, as well as all related brackets from the shift shaft and the case itself
All outer shift components removed from the shaft and case
Remove outer snap ring then the shift shaft detent cover
Remove screw and outer spring seat, then pull out the fifth/reverse bias spring, followed by the inner spring seat
[This message has been edited by West Coast Fiero (edited 03-27-2003).]
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01:42 AM
PFF
System Bot
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
Now we move to the bellhousing where we will need to remove the detent holder cover. Unfortunately this cover must be destroyed to remove it - great design by GM, not!
Here is the view from looking down onto the detent holder after the cover has been removed. Here you will want to remove the 2 M6 bolts w/ a 10mm head. Once removed there will be 2 interlock pins, 4 springs, and 4 detent balls, beleive it or not this is the hardest part of the transmission to get back together, but we will cover that in a bit. Once the detent holder has been removed you will want to extract the reverse shift rail bushing.
Now it is time to remove the 15 bolts that hold the 2 case halves together. Once this is done it will now be time to split the transmission case.
Here is the inside of the transmission. Overall, from our first glance everything doesn't look too bad.
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01:51 AM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
UH OH!! A common problem to the Getrage is the very limited size of the differential carrier. The limited size added with hard, long use adds up to worn down carrier bearings, as seen by the pitted races and debris on the case magnet ( top of pic ). We will need to install new races and bearings for the carrier and check out wear pattern on the ring gear.
Now to finish tearing down the case we will need to remove the end plate which is retained by 9 M6 bolts with a 13mm head.
With the plate removed it is time to remove the input and output shaft retainers. The left side ( being removed ) will need to be turned clockwise for removal, and the right hand counter-clockwise.
Now that we have removed the shaft retainers, we can press out the shafts. Here we have now out of the case both input and output shafts, 3rd/4th shift rail, 1st/2nd shift rail, and the 5th rail. Not seen here is the reverse rail and components.
[This message has been edited by West Coast Fiero (edited 03-27-2003).]
No worries guys, I may not be able to finish up the trans today as I have another car that I need to start on the entire exhaust system R&R, as well as install a cold air intake and add our Performance suspension system. I will prolly be tearing down the input and output shafts today and will take MANY pics.
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01:23 PM
CC Rider Member
Posts: 2037 From: Cameron Park, Ca Registered: May 2001
Here we have the output shaft assembly completely torn apart. This gives us a chance to inspect the wear on the blocker/synchro rings as well as the various bearing assemblies and surfaces of the shaft.
Problem found - the bearing assembly for 2nd gear has suffered from embridlement and is beginning to deteriorate - I would rather this fall apart on my counter-top than in the case which is why were are replacing it. Also seen here are the 1st ans 2nd blocker rings that will be replaced as they are quite worn down, this is very common among many transmissions as the 1st ans second gear are the 2 most often used gears
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04:03 PM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
I need to replace a fork in mine and am scared to split the case!
Howard - you are in luck as the 4 speed Muncie/Getrag is the easiest of the Fiero transmission to rebuild. I Have 2 of these cases split and all parts catagorized on my shelf - which forf is it that you need to replace? I will do a build up of this one here shortly as I had a customer come in today who want me to take 2 of his cars, one a kit car, the other a stock 85 and swith the transmissions - with the kit car recipient having the case split to install 3.32 final drive ring and pinion.
Great thread! Are internal replacement parts readily available for these units? If so, where? Does GM still stock the bearings, shafts, & gear clusters? Keep us posted.
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07:45 PM
voyagerspe Member
Posts: 561 From: Binghamton NY USA Registered: Feb 2001
Great thread! Are internal replacement parts readily available for these units? If so, where? Does GM still stock the bearings, shafts, & gear clusters? Keep us posted.
yes, all bearings, races, and seals are actually available at local auto stores., however the GM parts suvh as the rings, gears, etc. will have to be purchased from the dealership or other sources that supply these hard parts. At the end of the thread I will post all part numbers and the average cost of rebuilding this unit at home.
[This message has been edited by West Coast Fiero (edited 03-27-2003).]
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09:59 PM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
Now will will tear down and inspect the carrier and all components. Here I am using a heat gun to remove the VSS drive gear as I do not want to risk damaging any of the teeth when I go to remove the bearing assembly
Removing the ring gear as I was originally going to use the 80 ton press ( which needs the ring gear removed to clear the press bed ) to remove the bearings, however came across a puller that worked perfect.
Ring gear and VSS drive gear removed
Removing the bearing assembly
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10:34 PM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
Carrier with bearing assemblies removed. The left unit came off with ease, however the right unit proved to be quite the opposite as seen by the lack of roller bearings and cage
Removing the axle seals from both case halves.
Now removing the races from the case halves. On the bellhousing side there will be a shim underneath the race, make sure that this shim will be reinstalled on the same side it was removed from ( bellhousing side ) otherwise there will be significant damage to the carrier bearings and related components.
Here are both case halves with nearly all components removed. These will be severly cleaned with a long bath in the solvent tank, followed by detailing with the before seen Mag cleaner and a 1500 psi pressure washer
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11:11 PM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
Here we can see the carrier completely dissasembled with all spider gears removed, cross shaft, and all related components. This was done to inspect all spider gears and to ensure an even wear, if beyond factory spec these would normally be replaced, however everything checked out here.
Here are the cross shaft gears with thier respective bushings - everything looks cool so far.
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11:16 PM
PFF
System Bot
Mar 28th, 2003
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
My tranny guru tells me it is the 2nd gear one as it wont stay in that gear under load unless I hold it in. Wont know for sure if its that a chipped gear or something else until I open it up.
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03:27 AM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
My tranny guru tells me it is the 2nd gear one as it wont stay in that gear under load unless I hold it in. Wont know for sure if its that a chipped gear or something else until I open it up.
I would have to say neg, as the gear itself wouldn't cause the synchro to move - the gear is just along for the ride. I would have to say that the blocker ring may be worn down so bad that it does not let the synchronizer move fully and interlock onto the secong gear, if that the case I have synchro rings and a synchronizer assembly that are nearly brand-damn new that I could fire out to you
------------------ ( the above was the thoughts, views, and opinions of a disgruntled Fiero mechanic, and do not express or imply those of West Coast Fiero, Fieros West, or any other organization - just that of this poor bastard ) :) Eric Nelson Technician, West Coast Fiero 310-305-4111
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03:56 AM
tesmith66 Member
Posts: 7355 From: Jerseyville, IL Registered: Sep 2001
This is a great thread. I want to install a 3800 SC (future project) and have a spare 5-speed that I plan to go though before it get's installed. Thanks for the great info.
Great thread Eric, I think this will be very helpful to many PFF members!
Just out of curiosity, do you guys have the Kent-Moore tools, or using a variety of the "what works" tools? I'm going to be rebuilding a couple of Getrags soon, and I've been going through the service manual trying to decide which Kent-Moore tools will be worth the $. A couple of them are basically required to do the job right, and a couple others look like they'd make the job a fair bit easier.
Again, great thread, lots of helpful pics and info.
Bryce 88 GT
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11:32 PM
Mar 29th, 2003
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
Great thread Eric, I think this will be very helpful to many PFF members!
Just out of curiosity, do you guys have the Kent-Moore tools, or using a variety of the "what works" tools? I'm going to be rebuilding a couple of Getrags soon, and I've been going through the service manual trying to decide which Kent-Moore tools will be worth the $. A couple of them are basically required to do the job right, and a couple others look like they'd make the job a fair bit easier.
Again, great thread, lots of helpful pics and info.
Bryce 88 GT
well, I would have to say that I readily drool at the thought of having the K-M tools available to me, however the thing is that the trans really isnt too specific as far as requiring a real specific 282 tool only. With all the different cars that we work on between our own and all of our friends we have just collected all the tools over the years that have worked out. However the only K-M tools I would have to say would be a must would have to be:
J36037 - Upper clutch fork bushing remover/installer J36032 - Lower bushing remover J36033 & J36190 - Lower bushing installer - and other related K-M tools specifically for the clutch fork bushings as well as ti remove and install the input shaft seal. Of course I luck out being that WCF is a full machine shop and I can make these tools on the fly, it is a good note of reference to keep these tool numbers in mind for the at home mechanic.
But still, good observation Nashco!
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12:23 AM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
Great thread Eric, I think this will be very helpful to many PFF members!
Just out of curiosity, do you guys have the Kent-Moore tools, or using a variety of the "what works" tools? I'm going to be rebuilding a couple of Getrags soon, and I've been going through the service manual trying to decide which Kent-Moore tools will be worth the $. A couple of them are basically required to do the job right, and a couple others look like they'd make the job a fair bit easier.
Again, great thread, lots of helpful pics and info.
Bryce 88 GT
well, I would have to say that I readily drool at the thought of having the K-M tools available to me, however the thing is that the trans really isnt too specific as far as requiring a real specific 282 tool only. With all the different cars that we work on between our own and all of our friends we have just collected all the tools over the years that have worked out. However the only K-M tools I would have to say would be a must would have to be:
J36037 - Upper clutch fork bushing remover/installer J36032 - Lower bushing remover J36033 & J36190 - Lower bushing installer - and other related K-M tools specifically for the clutch fork bushings as well as ti remove and install the input shaft seal. Of course I luck out being that WCF is a full machine shop and I can make these tools on the fly, it is a good note of reference to keep these tool numbers in mind for the at home mechanic.
But still, good observation Nashco!
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12:25 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14219 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Now we move to the bellhousing where we will need to remove the detent holder cover. Unfortunately this cover must be destroyed to remove it - great design by GM, not!
If you're careful removing it, you can pound it flat and seal the hole with RTV.
quote
Once the detent holder has been removed you will want to extract the reverse shift rail bushing.
Once this is done it will now be time to split the transmission case.
both of which are non-trivial operations, and I'm sure that some of the viewers would like more elaboration on how to do these tasks.
quote
Now removing the races from the case halves. On the bellhousing side there will be a shim underneath the race, make sure that this shim will be reinstalled on the same side it was removed from ( bellhousing side ) otherwise there will be significant damage to the carrier bearings and related components.
Yes, it must be replaced in the same side, BUT, you ALSO NEED to measure the required thickness, "otherwise there will be significant damage to the carrier bearings and related components"
For the record, when I replaced my diff side bearings, the new bearings took a DIFFERENT shim than the old bearings. The GM tool set to do this is $700. I had a machinist friend make a functionally identical toolset for me.
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10:08 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14219 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Great thread Eric, I think this will be very helpful to many PFF members!
Just out of curiosity, do you guys have the Kent-Moore tools, or using a variety of the "what works" tools? I'm going to be rebuilding a couple of Getrags soon, and I've been going through the service manual trying to decide which Kent-Moore tools will be worth the $. A couple of them are basically required to do the job right, and a couple others look like they'd make the job a fair bit easier.
Again, great thread, lots of helpful pics and info.
Bryce 88 GT
I also have access to a machine shop, so most of the tools could be improvised.
In place of the assembly palette, I took two pieces of 6" wide flat stock. I paralleled the edges in a mill and drilled and tapped a hole in the edge of each one so that it could be bolted to the case through one of the bolt-holes that are used to hold the case halves together. These two pieces support the case so that you can press the shafts out of the case.
I also put together two pieces of round stock, cut to length so that they would support the input and output shafts as the case & bearings were pressed back onto them.
Don't let the synchronizer assemblies come apart. They are a HUGE PITA to get back together.
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10:20 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Rodney Dickman has free instructions for Splitting the Case on a Getrag available for download. They go into detail about the detent assembly and removing the reverse shift rail bushing. It's a piece of cake with his instructions and diagrams.
He also has reprints of the Getrag rebuild section of the Helms manual available. Required for anyone who wants to do this.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 03-30-2003).]
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04:52 PM
PFF
System Bot
Mar 30th, 2003
Will Member
Posts: 14219 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Could you share the dimensions used for making the $700 tools required for shimming the bearings? What about selling it as a kit yourself? I'm sure there's quite a bit of room between what it cost to make and $700.
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09:46 AM
Bazooka Member
Posts: 1301 From: Chicago, IL. Registered: Mar 2001
If you replace the OEM differential bearings and reuse the original shim there is a very good chance the bearings will fail very fast. New bearings need to be shimed correctly or they will fail very fast. Although the original shim should be close it most likely will not be correct.
------------------ PLEASE NOTE MY NEW ADDRESS
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories New address and phone number after July 21,2003:
Ok, the new 1st gear bearing sleeve came in today as wll as various other parts. This is actually a very nice update on the part - rather than have a plastic needle bearing cage we now have a steel cage, I hope someone at ACDelco got a raise!
new 1st and 2nd gear blocker rings
New carrier bearings and races
time to press on the new bearings onto the carrier
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02:48 AM
West Coast Fiero Member
Posts: 2044 From: Los Angeles, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2001
... then to finish up with installing a new rollpin through the shift lever. After this has all been done you can npw play with the shifter ( granted, sloppy as the other case half is not installed ) to ensure that all syncro hub sleeves are moving correctly on thier respective hub assemblies, ane to make sure that you put it all back together
now to throw some heat at the VSS drive gear to install back onto the carrier
