You are right about the bore Will.... I shouldn't go from memory LOL I look it up.... bore =3.898 stroke = 3.62 as long as I am getting specific 10.1 : 1 comp ratio in stock configuration.

Larger engines can also go forced induction if they so choose

------------------
LS1 in and running :)

http://ls1swap.tripod.com/

Wow! Never knew the V8 swap would cause such a controversy as of late...so...This looks like a job for me...so everybody - just follow me, cause we need a little controversy - cause it feels so empty without me - hehehehe nothing like a little EMINEM to get you going in the AM...

Anyway - SanBerdueFiero - Do some homework buddy before you spew your words of wisdom. I'm only giving one of MANY examples here –

Now pay attention –

Stock 350 short block + Holly system max package = 425HP out of the box 100% Street legal.

This is just one of many configurations for the SBC to make average HP. And yes, 450HP out a SBC is AVERAGE today. You guys need to get a life. As for the weight gain, it’s not as dramatic as some make it sound. Those who ***** about the added weight either never drove one to begin with or didn't have the $$$$ left to replace their worn suspension components. So everyone, can we all just get along? BTW all this whining and bickering BS really makes me want to prove myself.

“Stands on table thumping chest in his best Tarzan impersonation”
AHAAAHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

You guys crack me up!

Any yes, mines bigger then yours

You wouldn’t happen to be driving a duke would you?

Rob D.

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No motor - Soon to be a bottle fed 383 V8
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension
New web site! www.dirtyratracing.org

[This message has been edited by chester (edited 11-02-2002).]

quote Originally posted by chester: As for the weight gain, it’s not as dramatic as some make it sound. Those who ***** about the added weight either never drove one to begin with... yada yada yada

This is something I've been curious about for a while...
The nice folks on the FieroRacingList don't touch SBC's because of their weight. I've been wondering how well a properly set up SBC car would do against, say a 4.9 powered AutoXer, since the 4.9 seems to be the current ultimate AutoX engine for the Fiero.

From listening to both sides, it seems to me that there's a lack of experience on both sides. The Racing guys have never tried the SBC because of weight, and the SBC guys (mostly Archie) say their cars handle fine, but don't AutoX much and probably don't know what truly good handling is...

i highly recommend the systemax setup! i have it on my v8 fiero. getting the tires down is a little hard but.....11.87 @105.33 (1/4), 7.58 @93.26 (1/8) with a 125 shot on the back end, street tires, full exhaust, aint to bad. i now have a adjustable n0s setup, can go upto 200h,p, but why? should be 11.30's now.
i wuold love to have a 4.9 and a 38000sc sitting in my garage but, dollar for dollar the sbc has the most punch for me.

hey mikey, try it you like it!

lets try setting up some races (proof is in the pudding) to settle some of the "chest thumping".

if we wait for race with my v8 and revins 3800sc this dispute will never be settled!!!!!

****coming xmas 2009 cardealers v8 vs. revins 3800sc, no wait he is still waiting on his clutch!!!!!! ha !!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chester:
[B]
Now pay attention –

"Stock 350 short block + Holly system max package = 425HP out of the box 100% Street legal."
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/SM/SMK/300-503.html

Come on Chester.. a stock 350 short block?? and has anyone priced out the complete package that is needed to achieve their quote of 425 hp?? special rods, special pistons, 10 to one compression ratio, and cnc machined heads, and that cam is not to be believed... ))moderate lift..short duration equals 425 hp..yeah right.. Unless the rods are 6 inchers you would have to use racing gas for street driving, or retard the timing to where it runs like ....

...."You wouldn’t happen to be driving a duke would you?"

No, actually I have slown down in my old age
it's a Fiero GT with an auto.

I should add here that I totally respect you and everything that you are doing.. and I think that when the time comes that everyone will be excited with your acomplishments.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: but it's not recomended for the street..

Why not?, got alot of the Honda boys running around town here daily with N2o, hell there using the spray whenever they get the chance even on the darn on-ramps to the freeways! lol. then I end up stuck behind them smelling that sulfur stench.. I dont see how some people call using N20 cheating, Its doing the same thing that a turbo or a supercharger would do and thats raising the cylinder pressure, forcing more fuel and air to be burned thus making more power, however N2o is just a power on demand type deal..

quote Originally posted by chester: ..........Anyway - SanBerdueFiero - Do some homework buddy before you spew your words of wisdom. ....... Stock 350 short block + Holly system max package = 425HP out of the box 100% Street legal.

http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf

It seems that your swap is not street legal if it requires the removal or tampering of the stock emc ( but you can replace it with a newer one) and going from a FI motor to a carb'ed motor is a definite violation too... sorry to burst some of your bubbles...

Some of you guys are sad. V6 guys wake up. Nothing upgrades better or can produce more power than the SBC (Well nothing that goes in a fiero anyway ) And to a very small minority of v8 guys, JUST BECUASE A V6 IS RUNNING INTO THE 11's doesnt mean IT WILL BLOW UP. Jesus Christ how many threads are dealing with the "vs" issue right now? What a waste of time.

Like said way earlier, why not have both. Im more than happy with V6 turbo, but also have the newest toy up and running. hehe

next in line is some trick custom paint.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: seems to me the 4-bangers get most of the flak. Now I got everything, lol. I got a V6, got a turbo, working on my V8 and have an automatic and a stick. And if all fails i still got a POS C4 (but it looks good). Im not handicaped or an old lady (wheres an axe?) but for just cruising in town, nothing better than an automatic IMO. I think NOS is for ricers who dont know how to do any engine work myself. Its like taking a shotgun to go target shooting. And on 4 cyls, Ive had a few turbo 4s (OEM) that scooted pretty good.

Seems to me that the word "ricer" has been used so much that to some people it no longer has a meaning, I was under the impression that a "ricer" is someone who makes there car look fast, when it isn't (I call them posers), makes sense to me that 1.) nitrous makes your car faster... 2.) I think that you need a reasonable understanding of a car to own and use nitrous. So roger I dont understand your comment, could you explain it to me better?

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2.8 84 se with 50 shot and t3/4 Comming soon, I dont think ill run 12's though!

thats been gone over and over too many times too. It something a little different for everyone. To me 'Ricer' is any car, foriegn or domestic (i even saw a Lincoln Mark that id call riced) that is covered with stickers, has a cute name on windshield, wheels that are twice as big as original or stick a foot out past the fenders. A 2 or 3 story wing, lowered so it drags on the ground and paint jobs that look like they couldnt make up thier mind what color they liked. Thats the basic part, lots more I can add, but dont want to change the thread topic. Oh yea cant forget, those drivers also lay their seat back into the rear so they barely see over the wheel and wear their hats backward or sideways too. LOL. Dont matter to me if they got the stuff or not, if it looks ricer -it is ricer...to me anyway.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: It seems that your swap is not street legal if it requires the removal or tampering of the stock emc ( but you can replace it with a newer one) and going from a FI motor to a carb'ed motor is a definite violation too... sorry to burst some of your bubbles...

Well, first of all, there are 49 other states in the U.S. alone which don't give a **** about California's emissions regs. In my swap, the original ECM (I assume that's what you meant by 'emc') runs the car, and a '92 F-body ECM runs the engine. It wouldn't be difficult to tune that ECM to be emissions-friendly using an emissions-friendly cam.

I needed some degree of emissions compliance in my car, but I'd never live in California anyway. It's not exactly a car-friendly state, much less a hotrod-friendly state like Illinois, Indiana and Michigan are.

As far as the LS family vs small-blocks, GM refers to it as a medium-displacement V8 and the only thing it has in common with any other small-block V8 is a 4.4-inch bore-center spacing. Not even the spark plug wires are interchangeable. It is a completely different engine and different generation of engine design.

I think the nature of this whole V6 vs. V8 debate stems from misinformation on one side or the other about the merits of each of the swaps. Most people in Fiero-land don't even get to drive a non-stock-engined Fiero, much less drive multiple variations of engine-swapped Fieros. I have been fortunate enough to have had those opportunities, and of all the different swaps I've driven the Chevy V8 was my personal favorite, because there is a lot more to an engine than its peak horsepower number.

Let me explain, since I'm feeling like writing tonight. I used to be into audio equipment. Most people can flip through a catalog, look at specifications and compare numbers and features and prices and call in to place their order somewhere and be happy. But I used to custom-design loudspeakers, and I know that the specs that matter are the ones that either aren't published or can't be: on amps, things like damping factor, or on speakers, auditory richness and soundstage. One can look at a spec sheet and see that two speakers have the exact same rated frequency range and power handling, yet they sound very different in the same room and completely different in dissimilar rooms. And they sound different with different types of music too. How can this be? It has to do with how the enclosure is shaped and internally configured, the crossover's design, and the linearity (or lack thereof) of the driver response. Things you'll only know how one is different from another when you put it in a room and listen to it.

So, getting back to engines, again peak horsepower only tells a small part of the story. It, along with peak torque and dragstrip numbers, are static-condition values. They represent what the engine does under one condition: WFO. But the game changes when you start asking questions about dynamic conditions, like how smooth, predictable, and progressive is its powerband, around town or on a road course? This is where larger-displacement naturally aspirated motors shine over forced-induction ones, but don't try to tell that to someone who thinks a quarter mile time or a peak horsepower number is what defines an engine's performance. To understand how, you have to build it, fire it up and put some rubber on the road. Now, since I have, people who think that two engines with similar power ratings are the same, or complain about engine weight in a Fiero, seem as uninformed to me as those who say that putting that much power in such a small car will twist its frame. You just can't compare a Fiero's design to any other car for reference, because there is no other car quite like a Fiero; and most people doing an engine swap in one want to do more with it than just drag race it. If more people could simply drop by their local Pontiac dealer and test-drive examples of each of these swaps, I doubt we'd be having this argument at all.

Dave

quote Originally posted by cardealer: i highly recommend the systemax setup! i have it on my v8 fiero. getting the tires down is a little hard but.....11.87 @105.33 (1/4), 7.58 @93.26 (1/8) with a 125 shot on the back end, street tires, full exhaust, aint to bad.

What happens to your mph at half track? Sounds like your sbc falls flat on its ass. Your picking up 12 mph in the last 1/8th. I think something is skewed here. Maybe 115mph? I went 12.004 @ 111.776mph with a 1.665 60 foot. Your having traction problems? Mine hooks excellent, yet my mph is higher? With bad traction and 11.80's your mph should be way up there like 116+.
Sorry to be so technical, drag racing is what I do.

Tense? Me? Naw!

I'm down for anyone making the Fiero fast, but for me, only an 8-cyl or MORE will do (I'd love to find a pair of motorbike ~1.8litre I-6s and make a common 65* block and... well, later Just for the sound! (Anyone who's ever heard a flat-plane 180* crank V8 can tell you!)

Most of you know about my ongoing N* swap, I'm taking a "total-car" approach, and building something that (hopefully) can not only stand up to ~460hp@8500rpm, but can put it to the ground in a capable fasion. I'm also taking my damn sweet time, and doing the car what I term 'right'.

Track (and ultimate street) cars aren't so much about power, it's mostly incidental to the rest of the chassis dynamics tuneing and aero components. (chassis basically meaning everything on the car that's not the motor :P)

Hell, my current 2.8 can already hold it's own rather nicely with MODIFIED C5/Z06s on a tight road course (with speeds mostly under 100mph. Then I hit an aero/hp wall. I can put more down in the corners than they can though.)

PS: if I wanted a tranny-eating dragger, I'd twin-turbo a Northstar in a flash. How does *1,080lb-ft* of torque and over 800bhp grab you?! (stick that in your LPE vette and smoke it, grin j/k Probally need a bloody indycar gearbox. Actually, that'd be pretty cool.

cardealer: your trap speed looks a bit low...

Best!
Ben.

PS: for those of you drag nuts; keep this in mind. The Mercedes CLK-GTR runs *9.4* at over 140mph bone stock. Giddy up!

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by Will: From listening to both sides, it seems to me that there's a lack of experience on both sides. The Racing guys have never tried the SBC because of weight, and the SBC guys (mostly Archie) say their cars handle fine, but don't AutoX much and probably don't know what truly good handling is...

I've got a Z51 C5 Corvette that sees regular road course duty on BFG R1A race rubber. Does that qualify as knowing "what truly good handling is"?

Dave

quote Originally posted by fieroX: What happens to your mph at half track? Sounds like your sbc falls flat on its ass. Your picking up 12 mph in the last 1/8th. I think something is skewed here. Maybe 115mph? I went 12.004 @ 111.776mph with a 1.665 60 foot. Your having traction problems? Mine hooks excellent, yet my mph is higher? With bad traction and 11.80's your mph should be way up there like 116+. Sorry to be so technical, drag racing is what I do.

Probably lifted off the gas because he had the other guy beat so bad!!!

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: It seems that your swap is not street legal if it requires the removal or tampering of the stock emc ( but you can replace it with a newer one) and going from a FI motor to a carb'ed motor is a definite violation too... sorry to burst some of your bubbles...

There is no replacement for displacement at all, anything that can be applied to a small displacement engine to make power ca be applied to a larger displacement engine to make even more power

The iron block SBC has been here since 1955, must be a crap engine if its been around for 48 years and is still going right? It has the most aftermarket and performance support than any other engine and is the most popular engine of all time.People put this engine into 280Z's, RX7's, Triumphs, early ford hotrods, porsches, jaguars and many other non-gm cars because they know it has the most potential

I dont get how some people (that may havent even been near an SBC Fiero or havent built an SBC or al least read a book on them) claim know more about Small block Chevys and swaps than the people whove done them/do them for a living/or own one

edited because mr.holesome actually had proof for once

[This message has been edited by GTFiero1 (edited 11-02-2002).]

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: [/b]

http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf

Some of you think that this is a "California" site.. but it is the Federal EPA regs for the whole country (USA)..

Edited part: In fact if you want to see "how bad " Ca is, here is the CA site..it is not all that hard to follow..it really is not all that bad... http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm

Your last post was a good one Dave..and I have no argument with anything you said.. In fact I have no problem with anyone putting whatever engine they want into their Fiero, Just a problem with misinformation. Have a great evening and give everyone a look at your tail lights..

[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-02-2002).]

I can't read that EPA site because it is in PDF, it crashes my reader for some reason. But the Feds don't determine emissions laws for the whole country on cars after they are sold to their first owner. That is controlled on the state level. Those may be guidelines for states to set their rules, but they do not apply to the whole country. Though I haven't read it, my guess is that those are laws that would apply to dealerships that would swap engines in a new car, like Yenko Chevy and others used to do in the 60's when you could actually order a car and not order an engine for it.

I was just thinking how cool it would be if someone actually traded in a 3800SC over at Archie's on a V8 car. Then you actually could go somewhere and try driving both. But usually people yank the engine, sell it off, and install a V8 in the same car.

One thing I know for sure, I have heard of many current V8 owners who have had turbocharged and supercharged V6s before and have yanked them for V8s - some of whom are even on this Forum. But I've never heard of a V8 owner yanking it to put in any V6. Has anyone else heard of this?

Dave

quote Originally posted by crazyd: I've got a Z51 C5 Corvette that sees regular road course duty on BFG R1A race rubber. Does that qualify as knowing "what truly good handling is"? Dave

Are you the only V8 owner on the forum?

quote Originally posted by crazyd: I can't read that EPA site because it is in PDF, it crashes my reader for some reason. But the Feds don't determine emissions laws for the whole country on cars after they are sold to their first owner... Dave

True, here in Wis. Emission tests are only required in the countys surrounding Milwaukee county, Ive gone threw the tests many times with my Camaro wich has been altered in a few ways including a aftermarket chip. They really dont give a rats ass about it as long as you pass. The only equipment check they do is a quick look with a mirror for cats. and they check the gas cap. If you fail they go oh well, go fix it and come back.. when you do pass your good for 2 years. Ive never been hunted down by the big ol bad "emissions police" LOL.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crazyd:
[B]...." But the Feds don't determine emissions laws for the whole country on cars after they are sold to their first owner."

.....Wrong here..they still do keep control over emmissions..that is why everyone is wary of the EPA.

"That is controlled on the state level."

....Wrong again the Feds have decided to let the States do the checking of cars under their ( the Fed's) guidelines.

"Those may be guidelines for states to set their rules, but they do not apply to the whole country."

...Wrong again..These are the laws that every state must comply with..How each state determines how, is up to each state.
... a good rule of thumb to follow is that a state can make laws stricter than a federal law..but a state cannot legally make a federal law go away..Example..prohibition.. some states had regulated the sale of alchohol but they had to comply with federal law when it was prohibited for all. (IE..ATF)

"Though I haven't read it, my guess is that those are laws that would apply to dealerships that would swap engines in a new car, like Yenko Chevy and others used to do in the 60's when you could actually order a car and not order an engine for it."

...Wrong again they apply to everyone who modifies a car..Manufactures have a $25,000. fine..indeviduals are subject to a $2,500. fine. And it could be construed as a fine for each count.

I will print it out..and then post it for you to read, but it will take a little time as I have to install a USB port to hook up my scanner to this computer, and then load the scanner drivers, then copy to a file. Then Cut and Paste to here.. If anyone else feels like doing it, go for it..

that run was on 5/5/2002 @ river city city raceway on "the snap on day of the races". its last time i went to the track, after that it was to freaking hot!!!! any way i will try to post this time slip i dont have a scanner but i will get it up. that race i dailed in a 11.70 and my competion (a bbc nova ) dailed in a 11.33 he ran a 11.79 @ 115.80. i had the hole shot but i was afraid of breaking out cause the car hooked up pretty good. i let up early. the competion didnt break out but his off dail was 0.4668 to my 0.1785 for a margin of 0.3628 so won that round. next round i got stuck up against a digger car (sbc front mount pos home dragster) with a dial in of 11.00 big time sand bagger, i caught a red and the rest is historfuxrey. the car should really go 11.30's under the right conditions. i hope this was a nice little storie for ya and cleared up the reason for the low mph. btw the car ran 3 - 12.0*'s with out spray, i.e. 11.70 dial in.
X we need to race!!! how about we meet in oklahoma sometime in the near future.
looser buys dinner !!!!!

At the risk of inflaming this thread more, I'd like to point out that there are LEGAL ways around emissions laws. Orief, for one, has his car legally emissions exempt because it's listed as a show car (this also means he has a limit to the number of miles per year the car can be driven). But the bottom line is, it can be done. It can be done legally.

Also, most places (CA no included) don't care what you've done to the car if it passes a sniffer test. May not be keeping with the letter of the law, but it does keep the spirit of the law. That will vary depending on who you talk to, though.

I would be interested to see what Crazyd's car and FieroX's car both blow on an emissions test. I'd also like to have had each car weighed before and after the swap, so we could compare the weight differences. The engine is only one part of the equation, so weighing the entire car is the only way to be accurate. X is running a 4t60 tranny, which weighs more than any Fiero transmission. Dave is running the Getrag, which only weighs about 90lbs dry. It's entirely possible that X's car gained more weight during the swap than Dave's, when you take everything into account.

------------------
--------------Forever In My Heart----------------
Jack Daniel Miller --- Dec. 29, 1925 - Oct. 14, 2002
Ruby Cantrell Miller - Jan. 20, 1932 - Aug. 31, 2002
It won't rain all the time. The Sky won't fall forever,
And tho' the night seems long, Your tears won't fall forever.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: [QUOTE]Originally posted by crazyd: [B].....Wrong here..they still do keep control over emmissions..that is why everyone is wary of the EPA. ....Wrong again the Feds have decided to let the States do the checking of cars under their ( the Fed's) guidelines. ...Wrong again..These are the laws that every state must comply with..How each state determines how, is up to each state. ... a good rule of thumb to follow is that a state can make laws stricter than a federal law..but a state cannot legally make a federal law go away..Example..prohibition.. some states had regulated the sale of alchohol but they had to comply with federal law when it was prohibited for all. (IE..ATF) ...Wrong again they apply to everyone who modifies a car..Manufactures have a $25,000. fine..indeviduals are subject to a $2,500. fine. And it could be construed as a fine for each count.

Okay, then how can this be when there are entire states that have no emissions testing or laws at all? Montana and Utah don't, and I don't think Washington or Indiana do either. In other states it's just around major cities, everywhere else there's no emissions testing at all. Seems pretty optional to me. Also, states DO NOT have to follow all federal laws, speed limit laws are a good example. The only way the Feds had any enforcement of the 55mph limit was via federal road money. Was breaking the 55mph speed limit ever a federal crime? This is why we have state sovereignty in the first place.

Dave

quote Originally posted by crazyd: I can't read that EPA site because it is in PDF, .....Dave

Here it is...

UNITED STATES ENVIRONMAL PROTECTION AGENCY
WASHNGTON, D.C. 20460

ENGINE SWITCHING FACT SHEET

UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20460
March 13, 1991

OFFICE OF AIR AND RADIATION

Pursuant to frequent requests for information received by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regarding the legality and effects of engine switching, this document will summarize federal law and policy pertaining to this matter, and will discuss other related issues.

A. Federal Law

The federal tampering prohibition is contained in secfion 203(a)(3) of the Clean Air Act (Act), 42 U.S.C. 7522(a)(3). Section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act prohibits any person from removing or rendering inoperative any emission control device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine prior to its sale and delivery to an ultimate purchaser and prohibits any person from knowingly removing or rendering inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery, and the causing thereof. The maximum civil penalty for a violation of this section by a manufacturer or dealer is $25,000; for any other person, $2,500. Section 203(a)(3)(B) of the Act prohibits any person from manufacturing or selling, or offering to sell, or installing, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or is being installed for such use. The maximun civil penalty for a violation of this section is $2,500.

EPA received many questions regarding the application of this law to a situation where one engine is removed from a vehicle and another engine is installed in its place. EPA's policy regarding "engine switcling" is covered under the provisions of Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum No. IA (Attachment 1). This policy states that EPA will not consider any modificafion to a "certified configurafion" to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected. In many cases, proper emission testing according to the Federal Test Procedure would be necessary to make this determination.
1

A "certified configurafion" is an engine or engine chassis design which has been "cerfified" (approved) by EPA prior to the production of vehicles with that design. Generally, the manufacturer submits an application for certification of the designs of each engine or vehicle it proposes to manufacture prior to production. The application includes design requirements for all emission related parts, engine calibrations, and other design parameters for each different type of engine (in heavy-duty vehicles), or engine chassis combination (in light-duty vehicles). EPA then "certifies" each acceptable design for use, in vehicles of the upcoming model year,

For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty engine into a different light-duty vehicle by any person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configurafion of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knovang that emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo IA. The appropriate source for technical information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a parficular model year is the vehicle manufacturer.

For heavy-duty vehicles, the resulting vehicle must contain a heavy-duty engine which is identical to a certified configuration of a heavy-duty engine of the same model year or newer as the year of the installed engine. Under no circumstances, however, may a heavy-duty engine ever be installed in a light-duty vehicle.

The most common engine replacement involves replacing a gasoline engine in a light-duty vehicle with another gasoline engine. Another type of engine switching which commonly occurs, however, involves diesel powered vehicles where the diesel engine is removed and replaced with a gasoline engine. Applying the above policy, such a replacement is legal only if the resulting engine-chassis configurafion is equivalent to a certified configuration of the same model year or newer as the chassis. If the vehicle chassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such a conversion could be done legally.

Another situation recently brought to EPA's attention involves the offering for sale of used foreign-built engines. These engines are often not covered by a certified configuration for any vehicle sold in this country. In such a case, there is no way to install such an engine legally. EPA has recently brought enforcement actions against certain parties who have violated the tampering prohibition by performing illegal engine switches.

It should be noted that while EPA's policy allows engine switches as long as the resulting vehicle matches exactly to any certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the chassis, there are some substantial practical limitations to performing such a replacement. Vehicle chassis and engine designs of one vehicle manufacturer are very distinct from those of another, such that it is generally not possible to put an engine into a chassis of a different manufacturer and have it match up to a certified

2
configuration. Therefore, practical considerations will generally limit engine switches to installation of another engine which was cerfified to be used in that same make and model (or a "twin" of that make and model, e.g., Pontiac Grand Am and Oldsmobile Calais). In addition, converting a vehicle into a different certified configuration is likely to be very difficult and the cost may prove prohibitive.

B. State Laws

Many states also have statutes or regulations prohibiting tampering in general. Most of these laws specifically prohibit tampering by individuals. A few specifically prohibit engine switching, using provisions similar to those stated in EPA's policy. To determine the state law in any given state, the state's Attorney General's office should be contacted. In addition, many states have state or local antitampering inspection programs which require a periodic inspection of vehicles in that area, to determine the integrity of emission control systems. Many programs have established policies for vehicles which have been engine swtched. While EPA does not require these programs to fail engine switched vehicles which are not in compliance with federal policy, the Agency does strongly recommend that these programs set their requirements so as to be consistent with the federal law. State or local programs which pass illegally engine switched vehicles may mislead federally regulated parties into believing that engine switching is allowed by federal law.

3

Who's tense.... LOL. I think people are getting carried away with this emissions stuff. There are allot of 350 made after 1988. So finding one that meets those requirements listed shouldn't be that hard. I have no emissions testing at all where I live but from what I have read in the two links I would pass even in CA. If I had all my emissions stuff hooked ( I wonder how that ever worked out with orville ?) . But I doubt the emotions police are going to come hunt me down regardless LOL.

Hold on a minute.... There is some guy in a suit knocking on my door LOL.

[This message has been edited by LS1swap (edited 11-03-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I'd also like to have had each car weighed before and after the swap, so we could compare the weight differences. The engine is only one part of the equation, so weighing the entire car is the only way to be accurate. X is running a 4t60 tranny, which weighs more than any Fiero transmission. Dave is running the Getrag, which only weighs about 90lbs dry. It's entirely possible that X's car gained more weight during the swap than Dave's, when you take everything into account.

Not only that, but my car was originally a TH125C automatic. The weight difference there is if I recall correctly about 80lbs. I documented it in my buildup thread so I could look it up again later.

I'm going to weigh both my '88 GT 5spd cars as soon as possible. Didn't someone say there was a scale in McHenry? That's right next to me. If it's somewhere off 120 I should be able to find it pretty easily, and I can weigh both cars at the same place. Since LS1Swap has weighed his in at 2900 even it should be interesting, and settle a lot of disagreements. With that knowledge I expect mine to come in around 3000.

Dave

I weighed my car before and after, and with the addition of the 4t60e transmission, the engine, a rear sway bar, and a boxed cradle I added about 90 lbs. My car was orignally an auto car also, and right now it sits at 2800 lbs without a driver.

Don't forget that the standards to which states can test are MUCH LESS stringent than the federal standards. Tests to Fed standards are just too expensive at $5-10K a pop.

Even if the engine/trans combo is technically illegal, it can probably still actually pass the test.

Gotta love us canadian Diplomats!!!!

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86' Pontiac Blue 2M4

You're not alone, I have been wondering why people get so bent out of shape, too.

My OLD '94 SC3800 is fun, but 14.0 at 100mph is nothing to brag about. But it is stock.

A newer series II is much more "moddable" because of the GTP. More market, more products.

SBC, Biggest market, biggest amount of performance products.

Having a fast V6 is fun to say "My cars fast and its only a V6."

Start up a V8 and listen.....Nothing Like It.
My V6 sounds ok, but not like a V8, and I mean a V8 with a nice muffler, NOT a mullet Chev 1/2 ton with hugh tips and straight pipes. Borla and Flowmaster come to mind.

I also laugh at the "weight" issues. I am a guy with a little gut. I'm not obese, but I could loose a few. I have seen larger guys than myself remove interiors, HVAC's, stereos, and drill holes everywhere to save weight for the 1/4 mile. I feel like telling them that I would go loose 20lbs on a diet first before weakening my car, or loosing its convenience features. LOL.

People will always beat chests, I personally like examples to speak. It's always more fun when others brag about you, then you actually impressed someone.

I also spent a lot of time trying to make my engine swap look good. Some say "it looks like it belongs there", or "It looks smaller than the 2.8" It's not as nice as Ski's, but I have seen a few that are thrown together. I never understood this. Wires and hoses ran everywhere.

I have shyed away from the other flames, but I saw the nice potential of this thread. I hope a few Jacka$$es don't get this one trashed. I love helping others as much as I enjoy using other peoples advice. This is why I post my strengths in my sig, not to brag, but so others with questions can PM me or have some confidence in my replies.

And if you vote for me on Nov.... JUST KIDDING!

MOBILE

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Member MN Fieros Forever 1986 GT. Self Installed SC3800/getrag almost everything performance wise is modified/upgraded, inside and out. Over 10 years in Car Audio and Car Electronics Experiance P.S. GOT 19"s??(all the way around)

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: I don't think so...

Try talking with people who are DOING it. There's a difference between theory and practice. The letter of the law and the spirit of the law aren't always the same. Of course, you disagree. You'll disagree with anything I say just to try to win the argument. So, fine. You win. You're wrong, but I don't feel like trying to argue every little thing with you. Go on spouting your point of view and back it up with your facts, and I'll live in the real world with the application of rules and laws as they apply to the real world and not just in theory.

Have a nice life.