POCI has a new Chapter! - the American Fiero Chapter of POCI is the
only Fiero Chapter of POCI !

We invite any POCI members here to join us as we grow and become
prominent and active in the presentation of the Fiero at POCI events
nationwide as well as holding our own POCI events.

AFC will be working to enhance the position of the Fiero within POCI to
portray its significance in the history of Pontiac as well as to
enlighten and educate others about the versatility and durability of our
Fieros.

The web site is located at: www.americanfiero.org

This is gonna get a little confusing here. I'm gonna do my best to tell Y'all how it is.

The American Fiero Chapter is a part of POCI ... and affiliated with CFOG-I

In order for any car to be shown at any POCI event you must be a POCI member. No exceptions. I, myself, am a POCI member of coarse. I have several other vintage Pontiacs and memberships with both organizations will be a definate plus for me personally.

This is not true with CFOG-I shows, events, etc. You don't even have to be a CFOG-I member to participate in CFOG-I events (but we will make it worth your while to join)

Thus we have created an inroad to the greater Pontiac community with the AFC !!!

POCI events and shows are generally very, very nice. The POCI is one of the largest and best organized car clubs in the world and thier shows, etc, show that kind of expertise. Plus they have a very, very, nice "monthly" newsletter (Smoke Signals).

Now ... we realize that a great many Fiero owners out there could care less about the greater Pontiac world, and that's fine !

The creation of the AFC is just another option that we at CFOG-I have worked very hard on to provide our fellow Fiero owners with another choice.

Dale Starcher
VP, CFOG-I www.cfog-i.org
Pres, AFC www.americanfiero.org

[This message has been edited by 2M4 Dale (edited 09-02-2002).]

So how many clubs are ya'll gonna create?

------------------
Ray · Email Me! · Fierosite.com · Fiero Chat! · Project White Phantom

I think we're done .... at least for the moment ... lol

We have been working on the POCI conection since the earliest talks on the formation of CFOG-I

This is the way I see it !

It's all a matter of focus and
choices ..... to get all Fiero owners united we MUST present every available
option to meet all imaginable needs of our fellow Fiero owners.

We have quite a few needs to fill within the Fiero world ..... the shiners
and polishers, the full on racers and the weekend warriors, the socializers
and the internet types.....the expert mechanics and the shade tree guys
.....the customizers and the restorers.... the big show (National
Conventions) guys .... the cruise in guys ..... The top flight, big dollar,
show cars guys .... the poor guy that can hardly afford to fix his car ....
the inexperianced owners as well as the very experianced owners and everyone
in between .... the folks who just like to read the newsletter .... the folks
who like to drive thier Fiero to work and back and the ones who like to drive
cross country ....the dreamers and the do'ers.... the list could go on and on and on. We do
indeed have a big job ahead of us if we are truly gonna unite all Fiero
owners one day.

If we (CFOG-I) didn't do a POCI chapter for the Fiero ..... eventually someone out
there would have ! I think it is better that we did it as opposed to having
another organization do it............according to all our
conversations .... polling Fiero owners......talking with POCI members, etc,
etc....We feel that the AFC will fill another void.

Dale Starcher
VP,CFOG-I
Pres, AFC

[This message has been edited by 2M4 Dale (edited 09-03-2002).]

quote Originally posted by 2M4 Dale: In order for any car to be shown at any POCI event you must be a POCI member. No exceptions.

I beg to differ on this point. I don't know about other chapters, but the Keystone State Chapter here in PA welcomes ANY Pontiac (and owner) to their events.

Sure, it's nice to join and support the efforts of POCI and the local chapters, but, at least here in PA, membership is not necessary.

The only "requirement" is that non-members pay a couple of bucks more to attend.

"AFC is a part of POCI, and CFOG-I is affilliated with POCI."
Yep, confusing and potentially expensive. Guess I thought wrong, but I thought CFOG-I was supposed to encampass all the merits of clubs around the country, to unite Fiero owners under one umbrella. Now it sounds like you are advocating that POCI or AFC be that umbrella instead.. Doesn't affect me since I live so far from most organizations to begin with, but it seems people with less cash to spend on club memberships will have to choose somewhere, & they are more than likely gonna choose a local organization, especially those who only own Fieros. Like I say, doesn't affect me, since I don't show, but it does seem CFOG-I is sticking itself with a sharp stick. I'll have to re-think this thing.
Don

Yup in PA, no membership in POCI is necessary, MAFOA members frequently attend POCI events.

Why not just call it the CFOG chapter of POCI? Wouldn't that be less confusing? I kind of follow this, but it may be confusing to many people.

Jennifer

I am very sorry to see this is the path CFOG-I is heading in ... as a single parent who can't even afford to get my poor Fiero running I certianly won't be wasting (sorry guys yes wasting) 65.00 or more to belong to a club that so far isn't doing what it has promised it would do - I for one am very disappointed so far with this venture although I am keeping my mind open to see what will happen in the future but so far ladies and gentlemen you have failed to make me want to join your club( or should I say clubs- any of them) I think I'll stick with NEFA/Mafoa - lord knows we have enough going on there to keep me busy and for a lot less $$ jmho...

MsBeth

It seems that there is some confusion here - let me see if I can shed some new light on this.......

Before the actual creation of CFOG-I the principals discussed an alignment with POCI in some fashion. At the time there were several people who understood it and thought it to be a good thing (including many on this forum).

In the process of working with POCI it was determined that we (CFOG-I) could not become a Chapter of POCI due to a regulation of the POCI bylaws that states that every member of a POCI chapter must be a member of POCI. This is their regulation, not ours. So, it was decided that CFOG-I would be an independent organization. This does not prevent CFOG-I from being afilliated with another club or vice versa. Truthfully, the ruling of POCI just makes it cost prohibitive, in my opinion, of belonging to both clubs (although I do and many others do as well) - that would mean that the dues for CFOG-I would be $50 per year ($25 for CFOG-I and $25 for POCI).

So, another approach was taken to the alignment with POCI........... hence the creation of AFC.

Now, there seems to be some question as to why this was done - fact is - Fieros are not now nor have they ever been well received within POCI events, except in isolated cases. The fact is, POCI does not know enough about the Fiero to know how to properly class them in their events. We felt that we could have an impact on that by educating and enlightening POCI about the Fiero and its place of significance within Pontiac's history. But, the only way to do that was by becoming a part of the group that we want to educate - it is far better to do that from inside the organization rather than from the outside. In addition to that, it was determined that this would not affect the operations of CFOG-I by keeping the two entities separate - they have separate books and separate bylaws and the only commonality os in the few officers who originated both organizations.

Now, to address some of the remarks here.....

White88cpe wanted to know, "So how many clubs are ya'll gonna create?" - Truth is, we only intended to create one but the regulations of another organization required the organization of the second club.

Denny stated, "I beg to differ on this point. I don't know about other chapters, but the Keystone State Chapter here in PA welcomes ANY Pontiac (and owner) to their events." - Denny, I agree with you (sorry Dale) - fact is, and this is one of the reasons we established AFC, Fieros CAN be shown at POCI events whether the owners are POCI members or not - the car IS a Pontiac - BUT, POCI does not know the Fiero and many of their leadership will even tell you that - it is AFC's mission to make changes in the way the Fiero is received and shown at POCI events. And, this will also put more Fiero news in the POCI magazine as even their intrenal leadership will tell you, there just isn't much Fiero information being sent to the magazine - something else that AFC intends to change.

Don mentioned that is seems confusing - things are all in how they are presented I suppose - think of it this way - there are two clubs, one is CFOG-I and the other is AFC - AFC is basically for the POCI members (as you have to belong to POCI to join AFC) As Jennifer wanted to know, "why not call it the CFOG-I Chapter of POCI?" - Jennifer, if we did that every member of CFOG-I would have to ante up another $25 just to satisfy the POCI regulation. Not exactly something that we wanted to do - In other words, because of the POCI regulations, CFOG-I is NOT a POCI Chapter but, AFC is.

MsBeth said, "I for one am very disappointed so far with this venture although I am keeping my mind open to see what will happen in the future but so far ladies and gentlemen you have failed to make me want to join your club."

What I find amazing is this - everyone who has remarked here (with the exception of Don) has never joined CFOG-I, but, they do have a right to their opinion. The ones who have joined CFOG-I are the ones who are jumping in and making CFOG-I the organization that it is - it is 150+ members strong and many of those members are involved in the planning of events, such as the 20th Anniversary event. I don't see that any of you here have formed a club such as this, not to mention two separate and different clubs but you are not hesitating to criticize those who have.

Fact is, no one can ever please everyone - we realize that - CFOG-I may not be for you, AFC may not be for you, POCI may not be for you - but don't criticize those who believe in them, have worked hard for them, have donated time and energy for them, and will continue to work to see that they survive. There were those a year ago who said that CFOG-I would not survive - well folks, here it is a year later and 150+ seem to think otherwise and they are doing more than just posting negatives on Pennock's and finding reasons not to do something......... They want to see change and they have become a part of an organization to create change - much like the reasons AFC was born......... but, the fact is this - we DID something about it - we didn't just talk about it, we got involved and are DOING SOMETHING about it.

CFOG-I membership is $25 per year ... and that is all that is required to join CFOG-I

The POCI / AFC thing is just an option aimed primarily at current POCI members.

CFOG-I is our proposed Fiero umbrella ... POCI is just a side thing.

We tried to get CFOG-I to be accepted as a POCI Chapter ..... $$$ stood in the way .... In order to be a member of a POCI Chapter you would have to be a member of POCI ... we did not want to force our and I'll highlight OUR members into having to spend that kind of money .... again POCI and AFC membership is optional !!!!!! That is why we have set up the AFC as a separate entity.

MSBeth .. what havent we done that we said we would do ???? The newsletter ? Our Editor / Printer quit on us .... so it was late ... we had to find a new Editor / Printer. We have done this and the 3rd quarter edition is in the mail as I type this .... the October issue (4th quarter) will go out on time .... You must remember that the leadership of CFOG-I are all volunteers ... not a business.

T-shirts ... big problem here is cash and again Printer problems ... we will have the t-shirts done and in the mail very very soon !!!

So you see that weather you choose to believe me or not we are working very hard to provide our members with the very best. Even club options.

Please remember that we are only now coming up on our first anniversary .... We are gonna make mistakes ... we can't make everyone happy ... all we can do is try to do our best .... I think we're doing GREAT !!!! Wanna change something ??? wanna be part of the solution ??? join up and give us a hand !!!!!

Sincerly, Dale

[This message has been edited by 2M4 Dale (edited 09-03-2002).]

quote Originally posted by tgowens: The fact is, POCI does not know enough about the Fiero to know how to properly class them in their events.

What type of BS is that?? POCI has been around for 29 years. Their website states, and I quote: "To date, our organization boasts well over 10,000 members worldwide, who own a wide variety of Pontiacs and Oakland vehicles. We pride ourselves on the quality of the cars, the ingenuity of our members as they restore their vehicles, and above all, the family atmosphere which surrounds each event." One would think that such a well-rounded organization would know about the Fiero.

------------------
Boomtastic

[This message has been edited by Boomtastic (edited 09-02-2002).]

One would think !!!!

I'm a gonna edjucate 'em !!!!

As I blow by someones 69 RAIV GTO with a V8 Archie kit or a 3800SC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Terry you know I love you but my feeling is that CFOG-I needed to make CFOG-I the premier Fiero Club instead of hopping on POCIs exhaust fumes if you will.

And no I have not joined CFOG-I because I can't afford it YET ...does that mean as a potential member I don't have the right to expect the club to hold to its original promises..or to voice my thoughts on how things are going...

As for the dig about starting clubs I was at the first meeting of NEFA and have been an active member - no it isn't easy but then we didn't go and start up another club heck we didn't even have our first show until this year - because we wanted it done right ...and we did a great job- because we took our time.

I thought that CFOG-I was going to be the "ONE" the best thing for the fiero community and I hope someday it will be.

I'm not bashing the CFOG-I directors or members - I was the one that passed out CFOG-I applications at Carlisle this year so just because I'm not a member don't think I haven't done work for your club because I have and still do - and will continue to when I'm able but I am still disappointed and have every right to be ...btw the applications that were passed out at Carlisle were requested numerous times but never sent- along with any thing else for the Kit Car National Show @ Carlisle so the regional director finally went on-line and downloaded one and photoed 100 copies - there was no support from the Club with anything for that show .... The largest show on the East Coast and there was no Club support- no banner no applications nothing to even suggest that CFOG-I was there but the regional director shaking hands with as many folks as he could ...well done to the director.

So I'm not a member...I still have a right to voice my opinion I've worked for it ...

If anyone needs CFOG-I membership apps in the future ..... contact me !!! I will, personally, see to it that they get them !!!!

my email is : dalelee22@cs.com

No good deed goes unpunished...

Terry -

I did join CFOG. I was told I would be contacted on where to send my check. 2 months went by and finally I did recieve an e-mail from you (which I wrote back to and did not receive a reply) saying that no check was ever sent, which was correct. However, by that time, I was not financially able to join. I was confused by the fact that my original requests (the initial one upon joining, and another sent after that) were not answered. I do plan on joining CFOG as soon as my paychecks begin coming in for my new teaching job.

I was just trying to provide some positive feedback to make this affiliation a little more friendly to potential members of either organization and I think many of the others are as well.

I also spoke with both Eric & Bob Holtz at the Dutch Classic and voiced a request to possibly assist with CFOG in the near future, and I believe Bob & Eric had passed this and other feedback onto you. With all of us who have had problems with other Fiero clubs and Fiero BS in the past, I think it is not unheard of to be cautious when approaching something new. I agree if you want something changed, jump on board and help change it, but sometimes other changes need to take place in order for the help to really do some good.

Jen

[This message has been edited by Fierochic88 (edited 09-02-2002).]

Oh, and I'm not just a CFOG member, I'm also a Director! (Thank you Sy Sperling)

quote Originally posted by stimpy: No good deed goes unpunished...

Have I told you lately that I love you Stimpy ....

Ok, that's cleared up-The goal is to advance CFOG-I thru POCI exposure, or better put, advance both since they share some many common interests. Works for me. Thanks, Dale & Terry.

Now we're getting on the same page Don !!!

Okay, let me try to spell out what's up here.

POCI has been around a lot longer than CFOG-I. What IS POCI? They are a club for all Pontiacs, and even expanding beyond that to now include GMC if I'm not mistaken. But they're big, and fairly well-respected. They make a big impression on the automotive collector/enthusiast community.

Along comes a Fiero club of, by, and for, Fiero owners, called CFOG-International. One of its missions is to put the Fiero in the place of respect which it deserves. To do that, we must reach out a friendly handshake to other car clubs, and dispel the myth & mystery surrounding our chosen rides. Getting involved with POCI is just a start, but a very big start. Recognition by POCI means a lot to Fiero owners, and goes a long way to putting us, as a whole, on the pedestal we seek.

The American Fiero Chapter is not another club. It is a chapter of POCI. Most of their chapters are geographically based, but we sought something for all Fiero owners regardless of location, thus making this a "Special Chapter". I see no reason this additional visibility would hurt or divide the Fiero owners. If for some reason you prefer either POCI or CFOG-I, one over the other, then of course join the one you prefer. If you can & want to join both, fine. They are two different things, but believe me - as President and co-founder of CFOG-I, I would be the last one to support the possibility of dividing the Fiero owners any more than they already are!

To put it briefly, consider the American Fiero Club as an evangelical movement, spreading the good news of Fiero ownership with car nuts everywhere, not necessarily to convert them, but to teach them we're not idiots for our choice of cars. Fanatics, yes... dummies, no!

Without a Fieros-only chapter, POCI members look at us as scattered individuals with no organization. It would be nice if CFOG-I could have been the governing body they think of when they think about Fieros, but are ALL of our members going to join POCI (per their chapter rules) and double their annual dues? No, some would, but most wouldn't. So you now have a choice. To me it seems a choice is good.

CFOG-I will continue to seek innovative ways to promote Fieros and their owners to the "outside" world. POCI happens to be a costly way, but it could mean big things. There will be other ways which cost little or nothing.

I have to go. More later.

quote Originally posted by MsBeth: Have I told you lately that I love you Stimpy ....

Hugs, kisses, and baby bunny farts,

Yours always,
da stimp

Thanks again Stimpy ...especially enjoyed the *baby bunny farts* ...

yours ...

MsBeth

Lets see I belong to POCI, the Finger Lakes Chapter of POCI, Fiero Fanatics, FOCOA, FOCONE, MAFOA, NIFE, GFOG-I, NY-PEN.

Tri State folded and I let my Michigan membership lapse.

Outside of the political connection for a Fiero group to have a relationship to the POCI national club, what will be the incentive to me to belong to another Fiero club? Will the AFC offer some slick glossy publication, sponsor shows in exotic locations?

Will the AFC be a conduit for articles in the POCI publication. I can do that on my cars as a POCI member, but not articles on non POCI sponsored events.

AFC would need to get co sponsorship of the various regional shows I.E. buy in from the Florida Fiero Council, the Fanatics, MAFOA, ETC so that those shows could get recognition from POCI and articles in the magazine. Does co sponsorship cost money? Would co sponsorship give legitamacy to the Fiero shows in the eyes of the POCI buracracy?

Outside of the various Corvette events, I believe that the Fiero owners seem to be one of the more active car groups in showing their cars.

Honestly Larry .... what I hope to gain is kinda threefold 1. Better / fairer show rules for Fieros at POCI events. 2. More members for CFOG-I from the ranks of POCI. 3.Better reconition of the Fiero and Fiero owners from folks outside of the Fiero world.

and not nessasarily in that order.

quote Originally posted by 2M4 Dale: Honestly Larry .... what I hope to gain is kinda threefold 1. Better / fairer show rules for Fieros at POCI events. 2. More members for CFOG-I from the ranks of POCI. 3.Better reconition of the Fiero and Fiero owners from folks outside of the Fiero world. and not nessasarily in that order.

Any POCI sponsored show I've gone to, the Fieros are in a class by themselves and most have popular judging. At the national show, you can pay $35 to have your car rated by a judging panel. Even if the panel doesn't know a Fiero from a Fararri, they get rated the same way, compared to other Fieros.

Popular judgeing is a crap shoot at best in any show. The only nationl POCI convention (Buffalo 99) I went to there were maybe 10-12 Fieros in the popular judged class and four in the judge for pay class. Each one of those cars got over 390 points out of 400. Each of the pay for judging cars were really nice cars, so I can't fault their judging skills. The owners get a certificate of their score.

I got to see some real interesting Pontiacs and Oaklands.

At the POCI convention this year .. I showed in popular vote. I was placed in SM4 class this is a class for all lightly modified Pontiacs from 1974 to present. I showed against a 75 TA, a 87 or 8 GTA and a 75 LeMans .... The only reason I was forced to show in this class was for my paint. It is prismatique ... Well prismatique don't work when it is overcast and raining .. and it was ! SO ... that being said, my car was just as nice as the other 3 but I placed last in class against them .... If I would have showed against the Fieros that were there I would have at least made 3rd out of 5.

I've been sitting on this info for quite a while, waiting for the appropriate time to share it. Now seems like the time . . .

The Mid Atlantic Fiero Owners Association has been quietly working with and through the Keystone State Chapter (KSC), POCI, to gain recognition of Fieros as legitimate Pontiacs. We elected to work quietly rather than rock the boat, since it's much easier to convince through example rather than verbal confrontation.

We have had our own judged Stock Fiero class at KSC events for more than 5 years. Last year we gained our own judged Modified Fiero class, except for Maple Grove in July, where we compete in the 1971 to 1992 Modified class, and always do well.

We have been successful in gaining recognition for the Fiero and the owners. One of the KSC officers bought his own Fiero this past July, and another is looking for one.

I'm sure it helps that Bob Schlag (grgoyl86) and I are members, but that is not necessary to participate in local events. I think the things that really help are that we've gotten to know and respect the chapter members and officers, and that MAFOA members are willing to jump in and help at the KSC events. Those things helped us gain respect for Fiero owners and their cars.

[This message has been edited by Denny (edited 09-03-2002).]

Well said, Denny.

I'd like to add that, for those who are not local, This is the Pennsylvania State chapter, and I think it's one of the oldest chapters of POCI.
Next, when we started going to their shows, we didn't get a lot of respect. But, when we started showing up with 10-15 Fieros, and there were only about 50-60 cars total in the show, we started getting respect. They also saw that we liked the other cars, we helped out by volunteering to judge some of teh cars, and they saw that we have a great bunch of people.
So, go to these events and show them that Fieros are good cars, and that Fiero people are good people.
It takes time and work to get respect, and we have been doing that.

Also, I've been to a few shows hosted by the Nations Capital Chapter of POCI (MD, DC, VA). THey have also always had a class for stock Fieros, but throw modifieds into a general Modified class. Makes it tough to win, but it CAN be done.

Back to the subject at hand, I'm sure the folks in charge of this have good intentions, but it is a bit confusing. And, given the experiences folks have had with other National organizations (yes, there HAVE been others besides the famous one), it is understandable why folks are a little cautious. They want to see results. The 20th anniversary celebration is definitely one of those things that will help.

I also want to add that putting down the "other" club, especially by name, turns people off. We're in this for fun, not for politics.

If anyone would like to discuss this more with me directly, feel free to email me at bobschlag@fieropride.com.

Bob

[This message has been edited by grgoyl86 (edited 09-03-2002).]

I apologize for using the other clubs name .... I really do ... I guess I just got a little over zealous !!! Sorry. I have edited those remarks out !

Yes ... there are dues for the AFC ... $15.00

And yes .. the AFC is not a new chapter .. simply a resurected one !

I am in negotiations with the POCI to change /enhance show rules for Fieros at POCI events.

Bob ... you email me .... k

dalelee22@cs.com

And YES ... this is supposed to be fun ... I guess I just didn't expect as much flack as I've gotten .... I thought I was doing a good thing...still do !!!

[This message has been edited by 2M4 Dale (edited 09-03-2002).]

quote Originally posted by 2M4 Dale: At the POCI convention this year .. I showed in popular vote. I was placed in SM4 class this is a class for all lightly modified Pontiacs from 1974 to present. I showed against a 75 TA, a 87 or 8 GTA and a 75 LeMans .... The only reason I was forced to show in this class was for my paint. It is prismatique ... Well prismatique don't work when it is overcast and raining .. and it was ! SO ... that being said, my car was just as nice as the other 3 but I placed last in class against them .... If I would have showed against the Fieros that were there I would have at least made 3rd out of 5.

Dale - just to correct some confusion for those of us already showing at POCI shows and assisting with judges. Prismatique paint isn't stock, so wouldn't that knock you out of a stock class? Even at our Fiero shows non-stock paint is usually considered an automatic placement in a custom or modified class, and I had assumed that POCI has those rules as well?

Thanks! BTW - I think this is a good idea to a degree, but just needs more clarification. It's good to see someone interested in helping our little cars.

Jen

Well that's right ! My paint always does knock me out of "stock" class even at all Fiero shows. Point is that if I was competeing against other Fiero with similar mods .... well then I can compete .... placing Fieros in a class against Trans Ams, Lemans and what ever else is like comparing apples and oranges.

I would've been able to compete against the TA's and the LeMans had the sun been shining .. my paint job would've kicked thier butts :')

This is where a judged show works best. It doesn't matter what kind of car you have, it's what you've done with. Heck, theorerically, a Chevette could beat a Corvette at a judged show.

That's also why for popular voting to work at all, there needs to be classes of similar cars.

So, anyway, I'm confused. You can't compete with them, but if the sun was shining you would have beat them?

ah ... the only thing really nice about my car is the paint job and it don't work when the sun isn't shining :-) PLUS I was really just joking Ya know hahaha

SMF = Sounds Mighty Fine to me..........

[This message has been edited by tgowens (edited 09-04-2002).]

Just wondering

Has anyone ever published any rules in black and white for a Fiero show?

Frank

Space Coast Fieros

quote Originally posted by 2M4 Dale: <snip> placing Fieros in a class against Trans Ams, Lemans and what ever else is like comparing apples and oranges. <snip>

Than why are the oranges wanting to compete with the apples so much that they are starting another club?

G