ok, i've owned my car less than a year now... but i've put 13k miles on it... and i've spun out 4 times! one time it was my fault... 80mph+sharp turn+trailing throttle oversteer the second time was somewhat my fault too, turned sharp too fast... but the other two havent been! well, kinda have been.. i locked the brakes up and the back end spun around. and i the last one was in the rain, and i wasnt driving crazy at all and the back end came around... whats the deal here!?!?! or do i just need to calm down a little

It will spin out more because of it being a RWD car. The new Tacoma spin out like crazy, too much power, not enough traction.

Are you're tires old? bald, the tires not you!!

------------------
Mark Matthews
'87 GT Fastback T-top

You better go to a driving school before you kill yourself or somebody else. If you haven't learned anything yet, you need a pro to teach you.

The time I spun around I was driving normal, but the road was wet...took my turn, may have jumped a little because of the road, then the back end came around and I ended up in the turning lane going the other way.

When I made an emergency stop and tried to turn, my car just went nose first, I actually tried to spin around because I knew I would stop in time and just wanted to get out of there.... (thought I was on a different road at night but was a block over, road ended all of a sudden)

Check your suspention.
Camber and toe in.

Under heavy breaking a fiero may act the same as it does with bump steer. You shift the weight forward the back lifts up a little bit and the rear wheels tend to turn a bit because of the way the suspension is set up. I would suggest a Held bump steer kit. http://www.heldmotorsports.com/bump.htm

Sean

Cal Kid's right, you probably should go to a driving school. Hey, it's cheaper than going to the body shop :-) If money's an issue, skip barber's going faster has been the most valuble of the driving books that I've read. Also, check out what the local scca is up to. They might have a "evolution" performance driving school coming up.

In the meantime, don't get off the gas when you feel the rear coming around and smoothly turn the wheel in the opposite direction of the spin.

Don't slam on the brakes. Ease them on. And if you feel them lock, let up a little. Have you heard of Donahue's traction circle? You can brake and turn but you can't slow down as fast in a turn as you could in a straight line because the tires can only handle so much. And you can't turn at all if your wheels are locked or on the verge. From a mechanical standpoint. Make sure your brakes are all working properly and that you have bias set correctly if you have a brake bias adjuster.

In the wet, go slow(As much as I hate to, sometimes you need to go slower than the SUVs) and make sure all your inputs are smooth.

crazy driver or a bad driver????

i dont think you need to go to driveing school to keep your fiero in controle while driveing it hard.

do like i did read up on how to keep your car ballanced in a turn by useing thorttle. then go out to a safe place and try some to the things they suggest.

if you start to spin out hit the gas. if your front tires start to push let off the gas. it takes some practice to it just right so that when you let up on the gas to get your front tires to grab your ass end doens't some swinging around.

It sounds like you really don't know how to drive or understand how your car handles at high speed. Some sort of driving lessons sound like a good idea for you.

Unless something is broken on your car, it should handle fine during cornering except when it is overdriven through corners.

look, i'm not a bad driver by any stretch, i was just wondering why the back end always wants to swing out. maybe you guys calling me a bad driver have never taken the car to its limits?

All good advice here so far.

You MUST slow down in the rain especially if your rear tires are worn. I did this (twice) in my parents 2m4. The second time was starting from a complete stop turning left at a light so it oesn't take much to do it if your tires have little tread. Not only that, but your front tires will loose traction a lot easier in a sharp turn when it's wet. Corvairs are worse about this because there is less weight up front than in a fiero.

Learn about how to USE trailing throttle oversteer by any means you can. Go out where there is nobody around and practice, read, go to school, however you can. You can actually practice to some extent on any corner at moderate speeds. I'm not talking at the limits here, just normal speeds around corners. Smoothness is definately a key too. Abrubt movements are going to upset the balance of the car.

Nothing new here, just felt like typing!
I haven't been to a school (hope to someday) so I have to make due with what I can learn by myself. This includes reading, asking my dad (he's owned several corvairs), and of course experience. You just have to remember if your going to practice on the streets, do it alone so you don't hurt anybody.

Until you get a feel for it, go easy. And by all means let me know if you come to Texas so I'll know who to avoi...um...offer guidance to. Yeah, that's it. lol

------------------
65 2 door Monza
87 GT

Where the engine should be...

[This message has been edited by 65Vair (edited 03-16-2002).]

Sounds more like you're pushing the car past it's limits.

I know I've done that a few times (not in a Fiero) and I've been lucky just like you that nobody was in the way. Get on the track and learn the limits of your car, it did wonders for me.

It's not that they haven't taken it to it's limits. It's that they know where either the car's or their personal limits are and how to deal with it once they're there. That's important to learn.

[This message has been edited by 65Vair (edited 03-16-2002).]

You know how the police are in Newport News, if you keep it up, you wont be driving at all...LMAO Have you got any pictures of your car, maybe I have seen you driving around? This is what my car looks like:

quote Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: look, i'm not a bad driver by any stretch, i was just wondering why the back end always wants to swing out. maybe you guys calling me a bad driver have never taken the car to its limits?

Hi Spectrum,

A lot of your traction problems IMHO are
1) Tires
2) Sway bar or lack of?

I tend to "play" in my GT often. I put Dunlop SP9000 rubber on her for the excellent wet/dry traction rating. I'll tell you what. I tried to do some doughnuts in the mall parking lot in the rain with NO JOY. These tires bite like mad. And I do run a modified V6 and those that know me, know I drive it hard. So, if you want the traction, look into some good rubber and a rear sway bar. Oh, and watch for the Newport News cops. I lived in VA Beach for 12 years and they WILL hammer you if your caught.

Rob D.

------------------

Modified 2.8
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

quote Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: look, i'm not a bad driver by any stretch, i was just wondering why the back end always wants to swing out. maybe you guys calling me a bad driver have never taken the car to its limits?

Go auto-crossing. That'll learn ya!

The back end wants to swing out if you are too rough with throttle or steering inputs. Maybe not a BAD driver, per-se, just inexperienced. Work on smoothing your inputs.

I never really noticed the back end to come out that badly on the fieros I have driven. Only times its happened to me is when taking a hard corners WAY too fast. Even then its pretty easy to correct if your quick and alert. Normally when just blasting around the front end starts to slightly lose traction before the rear.

I have only span out on dry pavement once or twice in my fieros. The mid engine does handle way different then a front. It leaves you with less time to correct, and its generally less forgiving if you get into trouble. If you learn to master a fiero, most other cars are EZ.

[This message has been edited by Master_Sushi (edited 03-16-2002).]

Aren't you 16 Sushi? Don't try to talk from experience yet, you don't have any. Mid engine rear wheel drive cars with loose suspensions can have the back end handle like it's on casters. There is nothing the driver can do to keep it under control if it starts skipping.

quote Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: maybe you guys calling me a bad driver have never taken the car to its limits?

Or maybe we just don't do it on gravel roads and in the rain.

quote Originally posted by utmracing: Aren't you 16 Sushi? Don't try to talk from experience yet, you don't have any. Mid engine rear wheel drive cars with loose suspensions can have the back end handle like it's on casters. There is nothing the driver can do to keep it under control if it starts skipping.

Nope I'm 19. I won't pretend to be an expert yet. But I know how to handel a car better then the average driver.

You sound very bitter. Did you lose control and curb your fiero recently or something?

Statistically, something like 75% of drivers consider themselves to be "better than average drivers"

Sorry to say it, but most people SUCK at driving. That goes for 95% of you people, AND me. I know *2* really good drivers. Drivers that most people would truly consider "better than average." No more. Everyone else just drives fast and doesn't hit stuff. Hardly qualifies as "better"

Let the driving record tell all!

(1)Get your alignment check out by a pro-(2)Also get softer tires preferably Z rated. Those factory HR's suck. I've wrecked several fieros and also had a 17 yr old chik run into me. Tires were a big part of it. Thats why I now run ONLY the best. High speeds in the rain are no problem now-
OUT>

cheap free drivers school is GRAND PRIX LEGENDS computer SIM of 67 gp F_1 2 and 3 cars look on E-bay or on-line it is gone from stores now free demo is here http://www.papy.com/

learn to manage transition from under to over steer, that is dependant on throttle position and quick changes of same
in short DONOT lift QUICKLY or HIT brakes toooooo hard!!!!or the Fiero will spin
faster drivers are smoother gently changing inputs as so not to upset balance of the car
hard to do without practice est in a panic
SLOW down in rain and PLAN AHEAD
try auto-X to learn car control

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 03-16-2002).]

Out of all the cars Ive owned, I find the Fiero one of the best handling. I routinely take 25 and 30 mph curves near 80. One mistake lots make is getting off the gas. Thats a real nono in mid or rear engine cars. Soon as you let off, it unloads the rear and shifts most weight to the front wheels and around your going to go. Thats known as throttle-off oversteer. In a Porsche, do that and your around faster than you can yell s___t!

You can't learn to drive in a game.

"You sound very bitter. Did you lose control and curb your fiero recently or something?"
naw, still trying to get the damn thing built.

UTM I agree but GPL is not a game it is a SIM
and try it before you say it willnot help!!!
learn the way a mid-eng car handels without killing youself or wreaking your car by driving at or over limits
many real racers use GPL for both fun and practice !!!!!

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by utmracing: You can't learn to drive in a game. "You sound very bitter. Did you lose control and curb your fiero recently or something?" naw, still trying to get the damn thing built.

I disagree ENTIRELY. It's called response conditioning. All you need to do is to build an ingrained response to a situation.

Then you take it to the track (real) and fine-tune it.

Not slamming the brakes, for EG.

"You better go to a driving school before you kill yourself or somebody else"

Agreed, and check your car too.

Fieros are incredibly sticky and capable cars, but they are *sports* cars, and mid-engine variety thereof. Thus, they have high limits, but have a HARD break when those limits are exceeded, and one must WORK to regain control of the car.

I drive my Fieros right up to their limits on public roads (probally not a good idea, but hey.) If you want to see me lifting a tire and getting wheelspin in second gear on a 180degree rising *hard* turn, check this thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/015092.html

All of this said, I would say that it sounds like you don't know how to drive your car.

This is not a bad thing, but it *needs* to be rectified! Remenber, no one here was *born* knowing how to control a mid-engine car (well, sometimes I think it may have to do with the fact that I'm 25% Italian, but I digress...)

Anyway, take your car to an abandoned parking lot and get it to come out of control... then DON'T LEAVE untill you have brought the car *back under control* and feel totally confident in your ability to do so. Then do this again next time it rains. Skip work/school if nessicary, this is MORE IMPORTANT!

It should NOT be sliding out when you do not want it to!! Tone your driving down (way down) and learn how your car performs. Don't drive fast because you're angry and young.

Best!
Ben.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

So according to this thread.. If i stay inside and play Grand Turismo 3 with a MR2, (its a SIM, not a GAME) rather then going out and AutoX or other forms of sanctioned racing, and getting some seat time, I can learn just as much? Now that you mention it, i DO use my thumbs alot when i race..

What the crud are you guys smoking and where can i get some?

As to response conditioning? I disagree entirely. Response conditiong is what Pavlov did with his dogs. Learning that the lil funny feeling in your gut means your rear end is startin to slide to the left, so you need to let of a lil on the gas, and go right is completely different. I'm only 22, and far from being a professional, but i do have almost 500,000 miles driven since 16. I used to drive for a living. And not "pizza boy" driving.

If the whole sim thing was true, why did i have to have go out on the road with an instructor when i was 16? I coulda just showed them my mad skills with Grand Turismo.

Whatever guys.. Nothing replaces good old fashioned Experience

-Karl

------------------

Spectrum after meeting you today......I can say it for sure it's your crazy driving or that girlfriend of yours......LOL

Phil from Farmville

------------------
GTDude
25 years GM experience

Hey Spek,
You complain of braking just as you spin out.
This item nobody here has seemed to catch onto.
Maybe just maybe your calipers are worn the fukk out and are not actuating at the same time or even possibly hanging up also as you release!

Food for thought.

------------------
"If you want to blend in, take the bus!"

[This message has been edited by FieroHarry (edited 03-16-2002).]

All good advice.
Here's a quick tip. Look at your back tires carefully. Are the inside edges worn or cupped? If so, your rear wheels are probably toed out. Will add to your problems.
Do you always spin in the same direction? If so, you might have one rear wheel toed out and one toed in, causing you to go down the road like a crab. It might not even be noticeable, unless you're looking for it. Have someone follow you, and watch to see if your rear wheels follow the same tracks as the front.

I'll add this...
Many articles have been written about the Fiero's handling. It's shortcomings are well documented.
Bottom line is, if you drive "at the edge" it's easy to get in over your head.
Get some training. Either a driver's school, or go and drive "at the limit" on an empty parking lot. (No lamp posts, please.) Learn what your car is going to do, in a situation where you won't hit anybody or anything.
Just my $.02.

------------------
Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

Pay attention, it's "Grand Prix Legends" and yes it actually is a good education tool. First, the game is *hard* and the physics are dead on for our cars.

And no, NOTHING can replace instructor time, or just plain old time spent in your car, DRIVING it. (hard, at the limit. sitting in traffic won't teach you **** .)

Responce conditioning? Whatever. I could care less about a bunch of stupid dogs What does have to go on here though is re-learning of a reflex to lift under hard cornering. (unless you have a massively powerful Fiero, your comment about easing OFF the gas just shows your ignorance.)

IT's the same thing that has to be re-learned before you can succesfully SCUBA dive. The human body has a hold-breath reflex when immersed in water (and rightly so...) but it will KILL you if you hold your breath during an ascent...

Sorry to come off like an ass, but pseudo-intelligent snobish posts like yours bother me.

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by FieroJones: So according to this thread.. If i stay inside and play Grand Turismo 3 with a MR2, (its a SIM, not a GAME) rather then going out and AutoX or other forms of sanctioned racing, and getting some seat time, I can learn just as much? Now that you mention it, i DO use my thumbs alot when i race.. What the crud are you guys smoking and where can i get some? As to response conditioning? I disagree entirely. Response conditiong is what Pavlov did with his dogs. Learning that the lil funny feeling in your gut means your rear end is startin to slide to the left, so you need to let of a lil on the gas, and go right is completely different. I'm only 22, and far from being a professional, but i do have almost 500,000 miles driven since 16. I used to drive for a living. And not "pizza boy" driving. If the whole sim thing was true, why did i have to have go out on the road with an instructor when i was 16? I coulda just showed them my mad skills with Grand Turismo. Whatever guys.. Nothing replaces good old fashioned Experience -Karl

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by Raydar: All good advice. Here's a quick tip. Look at your back tires carefully. Are the inside edges worn or cupped? If so, your rear wheels are probably toed out. Will add to your problems. Do you always spin in the same direction? If so, you might have one rear wheel toed out and one toed in, causing you to go down the road like a crab. It might not even be noticeable, unless you're looking for it. Have someone follow you, and watch to see if your rear wheels follow the same tracks as the front. I'll add this... Many articles have been written about the Fiero's handling. It's shortcomings are well documented. Bottom line is, if you drive "at the edge" it's easy to get in over your head. Get some training. Either a driver's school, or go and drive "at the limit" on an empty parking lot. (No lamp posts, please.) Learn what your car is going to do, in a situation where you won't hit anybody or anything. Just my $.02.

you hit it dead on! i just looked at my rear tires and sure enough... they're EXACTLY like that. i ALWAYS spin out turning left... have never spun out turning right, or even broke traction turning right. and as far as not being able to drive... please, people, get over it, i take curvy backroads to work at 80+mph every day. i'm not a good driver, but i'm not a bad one either. i think what it really comes down to is that i'm a crazy, young driver that needs to calm down a little and as far as learning the limits of the car... i havent spun out on dry pavement since my little mishap last november when i first started to push the limits

The point was, A GAME is a GAME. Dont matter if you call it a sim, or not. Playing your sim on a 15" monitor and driving a car are completely different things.

As to my ignorance of taking off the gas under a corner, my car was setup so that if you were to hold the gas, you'd power slide. That doesnt do much but look cool, or let you slide into somethin you dont want to hit. I didnt say let OFF totally, just let UP. Big difference. Only a couple hundred or so RPM's. My car was not "massivly powerful" but my 3.1 V6 was alot more then a stock 2.8. ALOT. I could easilly smoke my 16's.

As to the Pseudo-Intelligent comment, you dont know how my car was setup, and i still stand by my comment that no GAME or SIM will teach you anything that you wont have to un-learn later when you find out that your pixel car handles different then the one that exists in the real world.

-Karl

quote Originally posted by FieroJones: So according to this thread.. If i stay inside and play Grand Turismo 3 with a MR2, (its a SIM, not a GAME) rather then going out and AutoX or other forms of sanctioned racing, and getting some seat time, I can learn just as much? Now that you mention it, i DO use my thumbs alot when i race.. What the crud are you guys smoking and where can i get some? As to response conditioning? I disagree entirely. Response conditiong is what Pavlov did with his dogs. Learning that the lil funny feeling in your gut means your rear end is startin to slide to the left, so you need to let of a lil on the gas, and go right is completely different. I'm only 22, and far from being a professional, but i do have almost 500,000 miles driven since 16. I used to drive for a living. And not "pizza boy" driving. If the whole sim thing was true, why did i have to have go out on the road with an instructor when i was 16? I coulda just showed them my mad skills with Grand Turismo. Whatever guys.. Nothing replaces good old fashioned Experience -Karl

Lost my damn post

Ah well

If it's an accurate model, YES, the sim WILL benefit you. SAME reason they approve simulators for flight-hours, and the same reason they make air-force pilots fly in VR machines. True, the military equipment is top-notch, but the theory is the same. You learn WHAT to do.

Do you even have ANY idea what Pavlov was trying to do with his dogs? Do you understand the experiment? The experiment can be 100% associated with a simulation excercise.

Built-in response is to let off gas in slide (see food, drool). The desired response it to keep gas on in slide (ring bell, drool). So, you practice in a controlled environment over-and-over until it becomes automatic (ring bell, see food, drool).
Free your mind, your ass will follow

In terms of sim vs real-life? As long as the sim is decently modeled, a combination of both would be more valuable than just one, or the other. You'll find that your real car won't handle the same every day anyway... Road conditions are infinitely variable. It's fairly easy to adjust, because the fundamental rules never change (drop throttle = BAD). Besides that, your brain is very good at extrapolating skills to new situations... It's called LEARNING.

Driving with your thumbs and with your hands makes little difference to your brain. There's a whole center designed to do just that. Ever hear of hand-eye coordination? By running the sim, you learn WHAT to do. By driving in real life, you learn HOW to do it, and how to extrapolate it to new and exciting situations.

Oh, and I wouldn't be so quick to call-down Pizza boy driving. I quit the job 'cos I didn't like having to run so fast down residential streets. It's one thing to spin out and hit a tree, another to smack into someone else. But I WAS exposed to EVERY road condition imaginable in my short 2 month stint. But give me my autocross, ANYDAY

Still, were talkin about a $50 Game, and a $5 million dollar sim. Apples to Oranges. Drop throttle is not always bad, and the drop i am talkin about is negotiable. Not a full let off the gas, but not a hold it steady. And DEFINANTLY not a give it more. I still dont agree that a $50 driving sim will do much for you.

Just my $.02

-Karl

quote Originally posted by FieroJones: Still, were talkin about a $50 Game, and a $5 million dollar sim. Apples to Oranges. Drop throttle is not always bad, and the drop i am talkin about is negotiable. Not a full let off the gas, but not a hold it steady. And DEFINANTLY not a give it more. I still dont agree that a $50 driving sim will do much for you. Just my $.02 -Karl

Really depends on the game... You are talking about a sim that costs 500,000 to code (The rest is hardware), and sells 2 copies.

How about software that costs 700,000 to make, and sells 200,000 copies?

Not apples and oranges. More like Red Delicious Apples, and McIntosh apples

I ain't questioning your driving techniques. I've been known to START a power-slide just to get out of a corner facing the right way, and going REALLY fast

But I'm saying that if the game even comes CLOSE to modeling the appropriate reaction (or more specifically, the method of getting out of it ) then it has intrinsic value to your skill as a driver.

But I'm done playing my games...

Can't wait for beginning of april! AUTOCROSS starts AGAIN!

LOL All differences aside, My new schedule starts April 7th!! Whats this mean? It means i allready missed the 1st Autox of the season due to having to work, so I am totally psyched to go kill cones!! hahaha I can see your point on the sim/game thing, just know what works the best for me, thats all.

-Karl

Cool. Spek keeps his driving skills reputation intact, the car keeps it's handling reputation, and we can chalk it up to bad tires.

Time to start a new thread for the video game versus sim thing?

Oops, sorry, already solved!
------------------
65 2 door Monza
87 GT

Where the engine should be...

[This message has been edited by 65Vair (edited 03-16-2002).]