Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: and as far as not being able to drive... please, people, get over it, i take curvy backroads to work at 80+mph every day. i'm not a good driver, but i'm not a bad one either. i think what it really comes down to is that i'm a crazy, young driver that needs to calm down a little and as far as learning the limits of the car... i havent spun out on dry pavement since my little mishap last november when i first started to push the limits
I'm not suggesting that you're not a good driver, I've never driven with you before to know. But if [i]you[i] think you can improve, and if you have an extra $200 or so laying around, consider this. You are very close to Virginia International Raceway, which just opened a couple years ago. If you really want to learn to improve your driving skills, lay down the cash and do some instructor-led training at VIR. No speed limits, it's a real race track, and it's more fun than you can imagine. And as a bonus, you might actually learn some stuff too.
Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: i take curvy backroads to work at 80+mph every day.
i think what it really comes down to is that i'm a crazy, young driver that needs to calm down a little
Well said. (that, and a car not operating to 100%, can make for a very dangerous situation. I hit 90mph fairly regularily on my way to one of my clients, but I make sure my car is in top condition. Plus, it's been modified from stock configuration as well.)
It is important to drive within the limits of the car, the road, the conditions on that road, and most importantly, the DRIVER!
I'm not going to get into this whole sim thing. I work on them rather often actually. All I have to say is, play GPL. Then talk to me.
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
Actually, I like "Need 4 Speed V, Porsche Unleashed" better for a driving sim that comes close to handling characteristics similar to those of the Fiero.
It lets you drive almost every Porsche ever made, and the 911 turbo Porsches seem VERY close to the feel of the Fiero to me, especially if you let up on the throttle too much in the wrong spot.
While I agree that a sim is NOT a substitute for real driving experience, one like this can help you to condition your responses to certain circumstances so as to correct improper responses and make the correct ones "instinctive", not to mention they are a LOT of fun compared to watching TV.
------------------ Gerald Storvik
http://www.8shark.com/
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03:00 AM
utmracing Member
Posts: 71 From: Toronto, Ontario Registered: Feb 2002
The only thing SIMS teach you how to find a fast line, they teach NOTHING about a car's limits or handling. If you think you're learning how to control a car on the edge you're just kidding yourself.
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09:47 AM
Mach10 Member
Posts: 7375 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by utmracing: The only thing SIMS teach you how to find a fast line, they teach NOTHING about a car's limits or handling. If you think you're learning how to control a car on the edge you're just kidding yourself.
Wow... So may ideas being tossed around. Video games don't teach you much more than hand eye coordination. Generally when a car starts to slip you can feel it in your body and make the appropriate corrections. I think your all reading alot into this.
I would bet that he hasn't gotten the concept of trailing throttle oversteer down. The fiero's short wheelbase pretty much dictates that if the car starts to slide it is very hard to get back. This is a common trait in a 911 as well , a little more controllable though. In my experience a Fiero will transition from understeer to oversteer very quickly , with even the best drivers caught off gaurd.
I think it comes down to a simple case of the car driving the driver. Not only pushing a Fiero beyond it's limits , but far far beyond your own. It's not just the fiero that exhibits these traits , a Mr2 (Mk1) is far more twitchy at its limit (which is a bit higher than a stock fiero)
A fiero is not an easy car to drive fast , it takes total concentration , whereas a car like a vette you can drive like a madman and stay out of trouble.
I can remember the first time i got seriously bit by trailing throttle oversteer. Going into a sweeper (on a track) at 70+mph and lifiting off ever so slightly to get a good line ...around she came!
Get some real experience on a track and stop goofing off on the street. Fiero's handle well , but most people don't have the skills to push them past them limits and return.
now if your car was modified it would be a different story.
JM
------------------ Jonathan McCreery 86 GT 4spd Koni's , Coilovers, Big Bars , 17" Trmotorsports Typhoons , 11.25" vented discs, Wilwood 4 Piston Calipers , Pirelli P Zero's, Short Shift, No cat , Cold air induction , Geni Stainless tips, White face gauges , Momo shift , momo pedals, Big Bore TB, 70Hp Shot of NOS Autocrossed , Tracked , Dragged? (soon) abused.
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01:48 PM
Fierowrecker Member
Posts: 1858 From: Lowell, MI. USA Registered: Mar 2001
Hey Spek! What you are doing is called pushing the envelope... Inside the envelope, everything is safe and cozy... Outside the envelope, there are big bad nasties that can and do kill... One solution to the envelope size is to mod the car so the envelope is bigger (Tires, suspension, and brakes)... Another is education, driving schools exsist every where... But remember, road conditions also dictate the size of the envelope, glare ice makes it VERY SMALL!!! I drove many years in Michigan during the winter and became very fluent with the envelope and road condition... And no video game (Sim) is going to prepaire you for your a$$ being handed to you on a platter! So, be careful! But enjoy the education!
Oh Ya! Ask Kyle about spinning out! He did a wonderful job of staying on the blacktop though!
------------------ crash... The Fierowrecker
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02:06 PM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: Generally when a car starts to slip you can feel it in your body and make the appropriate corrections. I think your all reading alot into this.
As you said later on inn your post, this happens *very* fast in Fieros too.
My only slightly modified car will break *so fast* it's scary. Feels more like a racing car than a road car. (I like this
But to drive it safely at or near it's limits, I must not only feel, and RE-act, but I must PREEMPTIVELY act. I have to know the tail is going to come out, and start my correction, BEFORE it happens.
If I just feel and react, I'm in the reeds before I can say 'oops'.
100% bone stock Fieros (with old 14" tires) tend to be a little (not a lot) more forgiving in their breakaway, but recovery is just as hard, and the break point is MUCH much lower. Too low IMO. They should have come with a set of 17s from the factory.)
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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02:34 PM
utmracing Member
Posts: 71 From: Toronto, Ontario Registered: Feb 2002
It's quality of rubber, not size of wheel that determines when the ass end comes around on the car. A 17" wheel with low profile can skip around where a 15" with normal sidewall has some give and will follow irregularities in the road better, especially once you stiffen up the suspension. It's all about balance.
I'm suprised that nobody has talked about the differences between power induced oversteer and drop throttle oversteer. FieroJones was hinting at it, but never went into it in detail. I've noticed that alot of Fiero owners think that all oversteer is due to letting off the gas or that anytime the back end starts to come around, that letting up on the throttle is going to make it worse. I'm sure that someone else on the forum can explain dealing with this better than I can, so I'll let them do it.
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04:50 PM
MrPBody Member
Posts: 1787 From: Decatur, GA, USA Registered: Oct 2000
lol, i love how everyone thinks i spun out again pushing the limits of the car... i've only done that once, when i first got it last october/november... cant remember when exactly. this really came down to me having bad tires... its bad enough i have the stock 15" wheels with 225s in the rear... but they're bad! anyway, its ok now, and i'm quiet aware of how the fiero handles now, and i rarely step out of that cozy envelope thanks for all the positive responses!
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07:00 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41126 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by Spektrum-87GT: lol, i love how everyone thinks i spun out again pushing the limits of the car...
The truth of the matter is that if you spun out at all, you exceeded the limits of the car, for whatever conditions you were experiencing at the time. Period.
If there is something wrong with the car, such as bad tires or alignment, those limits can be surprisingly low.
I still stand by my earlier statement. If you feel the need to drive hard, learn under controlled conditions how to do it properly.
And make sure your car is in good condition. I seem to remember that you whacked something in the suspension when you spun the first time. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) Perhaps everything wasn't repaired correctly. Just because everything looks okay doesn't mean that something wasn't "pranged".
Just be careful.
------------------ Raydar
From the Department of Redundancy Department.
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11:27 PM
Mar 18th, 2002
Larry Member
Posts: 509 From: Little Rock, AR Registered: May 2001
I think I'm done with this thread. Some people just shouldn't have mid-engine cars. (not saying that's you Speck. Just to reiterate though, I think you need to check your car's mechanicals. That, and a day on a track with a good racing driving instructor will do you wonders! And it'll be fun to boot
quote
Originally posted by utmracing: It's quality of rubber, not size of wheel that determines when the ass end comes around on the car. A 17" wheel with low profile can skip around where a 15" with normal sidewall has some give and will follow irregularities in the road better, especially once you stiffen up the suspension. It's all about balance.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
[This message has been edited by artherd (edited 03-18-2002).]
and as far as learning the limits of the car... i havent spun out on dry pavement since my little mishap last november when i first started to push the limits 
