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No Timing Marks by moon unit 1
Started on: 02-27-2013 07:57 PM
Replies: 47
Last post by: css9450 on 03-07-2013 08:49 PM
moon unit 1
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Report this Post02-27-2013 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
I am new to the forum but have been getting great details from you all since I am new to Fiero (old VW Guy trying something new) Anyway, I have complete all the normal repairs for my 1986 GT, Exhaust Manifolds, Distributor, seals, drive shafts, etc, but I am stuck. I have the engine running very smooth by "guessing" at the timing, but I really would like to know for sure. I find the timing marks on the engine, but I can't find any marks on the balancer. I have steel wooled, sprayed degreaser, and even used a wire brush, but the balance is smooth with no marks or notches. Is it possible to have no marks or am I just looking in the wrong place? I am new to Fiero but not new to timing...any ideas?

------------------
CAH

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Tony Kania
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Report this Post02-27-2013 08:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaDirect Link to This Post
If the marks are not there, could it be possible that someone has replaced the balancer? Even so, there should be something? Free bump.

Welcome to the forum. This place is full of folks that have been there, done that. Very helpful.

Good luck...
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Report this Post02-27-2013 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jon mSend a Private Message to jon mDirect Link to This Post
try this link for setting the timing in one of the pics you should see a notch in the balancer bear in mind it is not a deep groove - maybe yours may have dirt built up in there.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/125845.html

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Report this Post02-27-2013 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZSend a Private Message to RWDPLZDirect Link to This Post
On the 2.8 harmonic balancer, there are two marks, the large one is just before 12:00 from the keyway. This drawing shows other marks added for a DIS setup, but shows where the original one is.

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Report this Post02-27-2013 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaDirect Link to This Post
RWDPLZ... How did i not rate you before? Always helpful.

jon... Eh, we won the war. (Hit you with a positive also)
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moon unit 1
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Report this Post02-27-2013 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
Wow, you guys are fast. If there are any markings, they must be hairline. I will try it again tomorrow with your details. I doubt it is anything but stock, as the rest of the engine seems to be perfectly stock throughout...
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jon m
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Report this Post02-27-2013 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jon mSend a Private Message to jon mDirect Link to This Post
thanks tony

Moon unit - you do know that your'e going to have to post pics - as the suspense is killing us regarding your last post Lol

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/127330.html

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Report this Post02-27-2013 09:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZSend a Private Message to RWDPLZDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tony Kania:

RWDPLZ... How did i not rate you before?


*shrug*

 
quote
Originally posted by moon unit 1:

If there are any markings, they must be hairline.



I have one sitting right here, the mark is ~ 3mm wide by 2.5mm deep.
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moon unit 1
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Report this Post02-27-2013 11:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
I will take some photos. Maybe you can tell, just by looking, if it is a stock balancer or not. I keep the car down at my warehouse so I will have to do it tomorrow after work.
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Report this Post02-27-2013 11:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by moon unit 1:

Wow, you guys are fast..


Welcome to PFF....one of the friendliest and most helpful forums on the planet.

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moon unit 1
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Report this Post02-28-2013 02:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
See 4 photos. I spun the balancer approximately 25% around and took a photo at each 1/4 turn. Can anyone tell me if this looks like the correct balancer? I know it might be hard to see it, but I can't see the timing marks if this is the correct one. Please help!
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moon unit 1
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Report this Post02-28-2013 02:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post

moon unit 1

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Report this Post02-28-2013 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post

moon unit 1

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Report this Post02-28-2013 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post

moon unit 1

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Report this Post02-28-2013 02:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post

moon unit 1

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Report this Post02-28-2013 02:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZSend a Private Message to RWDPLZDirect Link to This Post
Here's what it's supposed to look like:



Yours is tiny, I wonder what that came off of?

OOH OOH, I bet I know what happened! The inner and outer parts of the balancer have a rubber insulator in the middle. I bet yours spun, and instead of replacing it, they took the outer portion off, and just bolted the pulley assembly back on.

[This message has been edited by RWDPLZ (edited 02-28-2013).]

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moon unit 1
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Report this Post02-28-2013 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
sounds logical. Do I replace it? or is it worth it if the car is running smooth?
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Report this Post02-28-2013 02:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZSend a Private Message to RWDPLZDirect Link to This Post
I'd replace it, it's there for a reason.
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moon unit 1
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Report this Post02-28-2013 02:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
Well, I guess if I did the front manifold without issue, I can tackle this one. I will search the forums for special tooling needed and if there is a seal in there I should replace while I'm at it...
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Report this Post02-28-2013 02:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZSend a Private Message to RWDPLZDirect Link to This Post
Yep, you need a special puller. I think Autozone lends them out with a deposit. Here's ow to do it:

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/113379.html



I think this is what happened to yours:

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moon unit 1
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Report this Post02-28-2013 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
Cheers. I appreciate the advice. Looks like I can handle this with the right tools. And I just got the belts adjusted right! I guess that's how it works with this auto.
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Report this Post02-28-2013 03:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
Did a quick online search. Can anyone tell me where I can buy a new one?
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Report this Post02-28-2013 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerDirect Link to This Post
Here's some help for you:

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...110502-2-107314.html

Jonathan
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Report this Post02-28-2013 03:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZSend a Private Message to RWDPLZDirect Link to This Post
Just did a quick search through all my sources and came up empty, except for the Fiero Store, who wants $100 plus you have to transfer the markings from your dampener to the new one. Apparently, the 2.8 dampener is no longer available, BUT the newer 3.4L dampener will work, if you move the timing mark.

Rock Auto sells this dampener for $36 + shipping, Dorman part # 594147

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...110502-2-104579.html
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Report this Post02-28-2013 04:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post
Yup, it looks like the damper part is missing!

http://www.damperdoctor.com...DD&Category_Code=PON

$117 or so.... and your core is no good

found this online (FWIW):


Some aftermarket balancers for the Fiero are shown below.


Harmonic Balancer, 2.5L, '87-88 Dorman 594-027
Harmonic Balancer, 2.8L, '85-87 Dorman 594-013
Harmonic Balancer, 2.8L, '88 Dorman 594-008

And these:


From Auto Zone for Fiero V6 (in 2002):
Pioneer DA-1731 (replaces OE# 14083394) 73.99
Pioneer DA-1733 (replaces OE# 14085401) 67.99

1 year warranty on them. Auto Zone only sells new balancers.
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moon unit 1
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Report this Post02-28-2013 04:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
looks like I will have to go the damper doctor route. Will they supply with the timing marks in the correct location?
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css9450
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Report this Post02-28-2013 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for css9450Send a Private Message to css9450Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by moon unit 1:

looks like I will have to go the damper doctor route. Will they supply with the timing marks in the correct location?


They'll go one better - it will be a genuine Fiero damper from a real Fiero. The marks will be in exactly the right place where GM put them.

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Report this Post02-28-2013 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaDirect Link to This Post
Can anyone supply this new member with a used damper for cheap? Or a rebuildable core for free?

Just trying to keep more of our little passions on the road.

I never knew that a damper could seperate like that?
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moon unit 1
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Report this Post02-28-2013 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
Thanks for all the help gang. I already pulled the balancer and the seal. O'Reilly has the seal and I will order the balancer from the link provided unless someone need to get rid of a good one. I have never installed one before, but it looks like the loaner tool should make it gravy, Anyone know the torque settings for the crank bolt and the pully bolts?
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Report this Post02-28-2013 06:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post

moon unit 1

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Thanks for all the help gang. I already pulled the balancer and the seal. O'Reilly has the seal and I will order the balancer from the link provided unless someone need to get rid of a good one. I have never installed one before, but it looks like the loaner tool should make it gravy, Anyone know the torque settings for the crank bolt and the pully bolts?
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Report this Post02-28-2013 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZSend a Private Message to RWDPLZDirect Link to This Post
I'd do $25 shipped if you want, the one pictured above, without the crank pulley.

Page 6A2-24 of the 86 shop manual says

Crankshaft Pulley 20-30 LB. FT.
Crankshaft Pulley Hub 66-84 LB. FT
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Report this Post02-28-2013 07:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
I don't have enough good things to say about this forum. I love the "ask and you shall receive" mentality. I have decided to go with the damper doctor balancer and spend the cash. With the torque setting you gave me I am good to go. I used the plastic pipe method to seat the transaxle seal and plan on using that same method to seat the new crank seal. They look about the same OD.

Thanks!
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Report this Post02-28-2013 07:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZSend a Private Message to RWDPLZDirect Link to This Post
Post pictures of the Damper Doctor one when it shows up so we can see if the mark is in the right spot. You'd think for that much they'd have pictures on the website.
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Report this Post02-28-2013 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Direct Link to This Post
ASK.....and you shall Receive..Moon Unit!

This forum is a good example of the collective ZEN that happens. Must keep those Fieros Alive!

god bless Frank Zappa. (for you younger folks....look him up!)
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Report this Post03-01-2013 03:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
I took the rubber damper out of my 413 Dodge on purpose. It works just fine without it. As far as timing marks, find someone who does it old school by sound/trial and error. Its far more accurate for your exact specific engine anyway. Once hes set it to your liking, you can always mark it permanently for future use. I hardly ever use the marks and timing lite on mine. I had several new cars that never ran well on factory recommended timing...I always altered it after they did a tune up back to where I wanted it. I really only will use a the marks to line it up initially after a rebuild.
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Report this Post03-01-2013 03:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post
setting base timing is probably more important on a computer controlled vehicle. My '73 International is supposed to have a base timing of zero, but it seems that 15degrees is runs best (and others have indicated that some of these engines are like that).
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Report this Post03-01-2013 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderDirect Link to This Post

jaskispyder

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Harmonic Dampers, what are they and what do they do and why does a motor need one?
Four years ago my wife and I started a new business called Harmonic Damper Rebuilds Ltd. We purchased an existing business and a proven process for quality custom rebuilding of harmonic dampers. This largely follows existing manufacturing processes.

We are rebuilding dampers for American and Australian made vehicles. I am also developing tooling for European and Japanese engines. Diesel, heavy commercial and marine engines. We are also developing a rubber process with a German company to improve the quality and reliability of our rebuilt dampers.

The inventor of the harmonic damper was Dr Frank Lanchester. He and two of his eight brothers started the Lanchester Engine Company in 1900. They had high standards for their engines and Dr Lanchester would tinker with each motor that went out the door to make it more perfect than the last one. He invented the Torsional Crankshaft Damper [harmonic damper] and the harmonic balancer to cut vibrations in the Lanchester 38 hp six which was introduced in 1907. In 1910 he invented the single and double counter-rotating balance shafts. The patents for which were purchased in the 1970s and used by Mitsubishi and licensed to other manufacturers to the present day. He also invented the steering wheel, amongst many other things.

Harmonic dampers are called by a wide range of varied names. In truth they are all torsional vibration dampers. Terms like crank pulleys, balancers, power pulley etc are to varying degrees erroneous. The term harmonic balancer comes from some manufacturers using the hub as a convenient location for external mass balance weights. The reason for this is that it made fine tuning of engine vibration simply done by adding or removing weight from the mass balance.

Though it is common belief that large steel parts such as crankshafts are rigid and inflexible this is not true, when a force acts on a crankshaft it bends, flexes and twists just as a rubber band would. While this elastic deformation is often very small it can have a significant impact on how an engine functions.

All objects have a natural frequency that they resonate or vibrate at when struck. An everyday example of this is a tuning fork. The sound that a particular fork makes is directly related to the frequency that it is vibrating at. This is it's natural frequency which is dictated by the size, shape and material of the fork. A crankshaft is a series of tuning forks in a line, it has a natural frequency that it vibrates at. When an object like a crankshaft is exposed to a heavily amplified order of it's own natural frequency it will begin to resonate with increasing vigor until it vibrates itself to pieces. This is called fatigue failure.

Crankshafts twist back and forth a small amount every time a cylinder has a power stroke. This motion is complicated because the amplitude of the vibration varies along the shaft. The crankshaft will experience torsional vibrations of the greatest amplitude at the point furtherest from the flywheel or load.

Engines have major and minor critical rpms and are different due to the fact that some harmonics assist one another producing large vibrations whereas other harmonics cancel each other out. Major critical rpms have harmonics that build on one another to amplify the torsional motion of the crankshaft. Conversely, minor criticals are at rpm that tend to cancel and damp the oscillations of the crankshaft. If the rpm remains at one of the Major criticals for any length of time fatigue failure of the crankshaft will result. These major critical rpms are dangerous and must be avoided or properly damped.

The oscillation of an undamped crankshaft at a major critical speed will commonly shear the front crank pulley and/or the flywheel from the crankshaft. I have seen hub keys sheared, flywheels loose, and pressure plates coming apart. These failures have often required crankshaft and or gearbox replacement and in extreme cases the diff.

Technically, 'the primary purpose of a harmonic damper is to cancel out third harmonic distortion by using intermodulation between the second harmonic and the fundamental in the space charge regions of the triodes.'

Put simply the harmonic damper works by relaying resonance and torsion energy out of the crankshaft and dissipating it as heat by flexing a heavy metal inertia ring which is mounted on a vulcanized rubber cushion. Essentially the damper is a simple spring of rubber plus a vibration and heat absorbing mass - the hub and inertia ring.

Harmonic dampers are made of cast iron for the primary reason that cast iron has the ability to absorb and dissipate large amounts of energy because of it's high specific gravity. The damper on each engine is designed for the specific range of vibrations that a particular engine produces. Keeping the damper cool is also of primary importance.

The key weakness of the harmonic damper is the rubber.

Rubber weakens with age and also deteriorates due to excessive heat, oil exposure, solvent exposure, and contraction. So what happens when a harmonic damper is malfunctioning? What are the symptoms?

Symptoms of harmonic damper deterioration

1.Deterioration of the rubber between the hub and the outer ring. Shown as cracking, bulging or shrinking instead of forming a smooth layer level with the metal components.

2.Any wobble of the balancer or wobble in the drive pulley.

3.Excessive engine vibration.

4.Crankshaft cracking or failure.

5.Squeaking that does not stop when all other possible sources have been eliminated.

6.Excessive bearing wear.

7.Excessive gearbox wear or failure.

8.Failure of other rotating or reciprocating engine elements.

9.Loose flywheel or pulley bolts.

10.Slipping, slapping or noisy drive belts. Having to change belts frequently.

11.Loss of horsepower and lessened fuel efficiency.

12.Highly polished asymmetrical spons in the pulley grooves, means a warped inertia ring.

13.Elongation of the balancer key-way or wear on the balancer hub or crankshaft.

14.Failure in the alternator, power steering pump, A/C or water pump.

15.Engines that don't run properly when adjusting the timing.

16.Irregular idle.

When a damper wears, what happens, at a minimum, is that the outer ring will move so the timing mark will be in the wrong position. Or, at worse, the ring comes completely off while you're driving and becomes the worlds heaviest "Frisbee" under your hood. Your radiator is one of the favorite items your newly found toy likes to go through.

Causes of damper failure:- cracked hub keyways, incorrect damper for the engine or crankshaft, damage from improper mounting or removal. Bent or out of balance drive shafts, buckled or out of balance driving wheels, excessive heat and age.

If you have a high performance engine without fitting a correctly calculated high performance damper, a standard damper could completely self-destruct sending high speed shrapnel throughout the engine bay with destructive consequences that are not hard to imagine.

It is important to understand that while an engine from any manufacturer is designed by a team of qualified engineers, after market dampers are often designed by people who do not understand the very important principles of physics that are used to design harmonic dampers. Great care should be taken in the selection of any damper to be used as replacement for a stock or for use in high performance engines.

If a cast iron damper is replaced with a steel damper care should be taken that the mass of the steel damper is equal to the mass of the damper being replaced. Because steel is much lighter than cast iron this means the damper will be somewhat larger than the one being replaced.

I have seen after market dampers that have failed in spectacular fashion after brief use and have customers who are returning to a stock damper due to unsatisfactory results with after market replacements. As in any field of after market componentry there is a small sector that know what they are doing and a wide range of pirate imitators.

John Mallett
The Damper Dude
29 Russell Street, Waihi 3610
New Zealand
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Report this Post03-07-2013 12:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post
I received the new balancer today from Damper Doctor. See photo below. Looks good to me, but have nothing to refer to as the last balancer was missing all marks. Does it look good?
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Report this Post03-07-2013 12:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for moon unit 1Send a Private Message to moon unit 1Direct Link to This Post

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Report this Post03-07-2013 03:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierofoolDirect Link to This Post
Very interesting read, jaski. Thanks.

Judging by that info, it's best that when we swap a 3.4 internally balanced engine into a pre-88 Fiero, it's best that we throw away the balancer for the externally balanced engine and use the original 3.4 balancer and have the timing marks re-cut for the 2.8 position.
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