I am continually making progress on a 4.9L swap for my 85GT convertible project but its been a P/T project. I chose this engine as the convertible will be used mostly for highway cruising. I dislike driving with the sluggish 2.8L and the objective was to up the power without breaking the bank. Two hundred seventy five ft lbs of torque for a swap that will cost under $2000 fits the budget and over doubles the torque. I was able to secure a complete 70K miles powertrain for $700 so we are off to a good start.
At present the engine and cradle are being prepped and I'm looking for ideas on how to make this engine have a nice appearance. Trouble is most of the 4.9L swaps that I have seen are quite frankly, pretty ugly. Perhaps this is because all sensors on this engine (except for the O2) and all vacuum hoses are on the top. This probably makes it near impossible to have a clean looking 4.9L install so I am looking for ideas..
Is there any method to making this a good looking installation? Anyone have any good looking 4.9L swap out there? I believe that Rockcrawl had one a few years back but I can't find any pics in the archives..

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

In addition to all that, the fuel rails are on top and in the open.
My only suggestion would be to do an Allante intake. It looks like a "folded TPI", and is more attractive to look at.

This isn't exactly "spotless" but it's not unattractive, IMO. (dust notwithstanding)


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Raydar
88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550

Praise the Lowered!

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-31-2012).]

Ever consider an Allante intake? Yes, it ups the price a bit and it is an extreme pain to install to say the least, but that has the added benefit of more power or so I am told. They look great in almost every swap I've seen.

Other then that, get pretty ignition wires and a TBI bonnet that looks a bit more attractive, or perhaps just a open element air filter. Then do a nice paint job on the valve covers and intake manifold can really spice things up. The valve covers are aluminum, you could polish those. I guess you can polish the fuel rails, they are stainless last I checked. There really isn't much else that can be done. At least its obvious once the deck is up that it's a V8, and that is presentation enough for most.

Also, cleaning up the wiring, hoses, and vacuum lines to simplify the look on any swap is ALWAYS going to make any engine look much better. The simpler it looks, the better. Maybe bend yourself some stainless vacuum hoses too. One of the most important things to do is to make things appear organized. Especially the ignition wires! Those tend to be strewn about the 4.9 in most cases.

Honestly, I've never seen a 4.9 that looked good. It's just so emissions controlled V8 looking, and it is really busy with necessary items (fuel rails, EGR, Coolant hoses, Distributor, TB) some of which wouldn't normally be located up there (oil filter, alternator)

Of course, Raydar beat me to it!

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 05-31-2012).]

I agree with the Allante intake, here is mine, I just got it running. I will be cleaning it up as much as I can over the next few months, things like the vacuum lines and wiring, ect. If you paint it up it looks awesome.



Nate

My last 4.9 swap wasn't about glitz & glam, but I did do quite a few mods to make it as orderly as possible.





Roadster - so no AC, mounted the alternator down low to get it off the top of the engine.
Routed/bent stainless fuel lines along main fuel rail - no fuel lines crossing over the valve cover.
Routed EGR vacuum tube with stainless line and followed the shape of the fuel rail.
Custom thermostat/heater hose housing/assembly to keep the hoses from crossing over the valve cover.
Routing of the coolant hoses got them down and out of the way/out of sight as quickly as possible.
Relocated the MAP sensor and the EGR solenoid under the air inlet housing to get them out of sight.
Built the harness with shrinkwrap insulation on the injector connectors to minimize the bulk in the harness, then rotated the injecotors so the connectors were under the fuel rail.
Used truck TBI and 7730 ecm to have legitimate IAC and eliminate the idle stepper motor.
Routed the plug wires to minimize their visual impact and the crossing over of plug wires.
Fabricated air inlet housing just for something different and routed the inlet path to the passenger side.

There are probably a few other mods I have forgotten about as well.

Hey, I didn't think mine looked too bad:



Or you could install the shaker mod like Rockcrawl had on his car and hide a good portion of it:




I for one do NOT like the Allante look - makes the engine look so lopsided and you got this big 'void' area in the middle. Sorry, but I just do not see what the people that like this see.

I don't think mine looks too bad either (except just dirty), remember seeing mine last year at Carlisle Dennis? I removed the EGR after this picture.

Take a big plastic cover like from a 3800 or alot of other later model cars and mount it, and change the lettering/numbreing.

Or chrome everything

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-31-2012).]

The pics here show a much cleaner appearance of the engine that when it was in the Cadillac but I guess that we will need to live with the busy nature of all of the connections, sensors, wires and hoses on the top of the engine. Its just not a 3800 platform where everything can be hidden out of the way.
As for the Allante intake; I'm not sure that adding it makes that much of a positive difference in the appearance but that's just my taste. I'm going to try painting the manifolds silver, the engine block black, the valve covers, air bonnet and brackets a Fiero red and see how that looks.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

...just to add, just look at the clutter of the 2.8 at the front of the engine - you have a whole mess of hose and wiring all collected into the 1 area, the plenum itself does a goos job of hiding the injectors and more wiring and vacuum 'hoses' (tubes).

Just saying...

Maybe the use of the Allante intake with some custom plenum (not the IMHO awful Allante off center one ) on top is the ticket, but then that adds to the cost big time...

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 05-31-2012).]

I like the result for my swap.

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"I'm not driving too fast, . . . I'm just flying too low."

Work done 07-08 | Work done 08-09 | Work done 09-10 | Work done 10-11 |Work done 11-12 |
4.9 ongoing project |Parts for sale

I am not fully content with the black valve cover/oil pan choice I went with. I suggest using a real color to help it "pop". If the engine bay is black too it disappears. I got rid of the dented valve cover, cleaned up the two rear caddy valve covers I'm using, but should have painted them a different color to make them more obvious in the engine bay. When I choose a color and get around to painting my car, I will repaint them to match. Maybe start by painting the engine bay to match the car or just a neutral silver. It'll make the engine stand out more. Other things I am doing is directing the coolant hose towards the drivers side, not over the valve cover as with the fuel lines. Kinda hard to avoid the isuzu shift cables. I like the alternator on top for servicing reasons and plan to polish it eventually to make it stand out. The brake booster hose has been routed through the fuel rail and down the back so it disappears too. Keep watching my swap and if I beat you to the finish line you're welcome to all the ideas you want. I also polished the thermostat housing and oil filter adapter. All my top mounted sensors have been moved inboard and will be hidden by a custom air intake that will utilize the v8 PFI valve cover and lead to the fiero v6 air canister. This should also hide the distributor abit. I'm hoping all this will clean up the agreeably ugly 4.9.

quote Originally posted by falcon_ca: I like the result for my swap.

The red looks much nicer than the traditional black for these engines IMHO

Nolan

quote Originally posted by falcon_ca: I like the result for my swap.

Certainly better than many of the 4.9L installs that I have seen. It probably doesn't get much better than this. Still busy but nice looking. I was thinking about Fiero red on the valve covers for my swap but I will also paint the air bonnet red as well. This may draw some attention away from the hoses, fuel lines and wiring. The trouble with the 4.9L is that with the Fiero install you see the busy back end. Looking at it in the Cadillac you see the front end.
Thanks all for sharing your photos here.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by falcon_ca: I like the result for my swap.

Nice - but I think I would have ran the fuel lines along the side rail and then along the trunk wall just so that they are not running across the top of the engine.

Really jealous of all the installs shown. Especially the shaker hood, let's everyone know without opening the back lid what's underneath. Great work fellas.

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1986 Fiero GT Fastback
1979 Naked Honda Goldwing

what intake is this and why don't more people use it

quote Originally posted by troyboy: what intake is this and why don't more people use it

As for the shaker hood, it is home made by Rockcrawl (Fieroaddiction)

He is not in Fiero business anymore

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"I'm not driving too fast, . . . I'm just flying too low."

Work done 07-08 | Work done 08-09 | Work done 09-10 | Work done 10-11 |Work done 11-12 |
4.9 ongoing project |Parts for sale

quote Originally posted by falcon_ca: As for the shaker hood, it is home made by Rockcrawl (Fieroaddiction) He is not in Fiero business anymore

so that intake is under this shaker?


looking to see where the air cleaner would be

2 different cars

Something I found:

"The shaker uses a K&N dual quad air filter in a hand made fiberglass pan on top of a custom aluminum riser. The pan/filter attaches to the engine with two thumb screws. The scoop is also hand made, sits on top of the pan with locating pins to keep it in place. It has a foam rubber seal around the edge to seal between the pan, scoop, and hood. There are drain holes with drip tubes on opposite corners of the pan. Here are some pics from my album that may not be on the website."


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"I'm not driving too fast, . . . I'm just flying too low."

Work done 07-08 | Work done 08-09 | Work done 09-10 | Work done 10-11 |Work done 11-12 |
4.9 ongoing project |Parts for sale

[This message has been edited by falcon_ca (edited 06-01-2012).]

quote Originally posted by troyboy: what intake is this and why don't more people use it

Because it uses custom made tubing and an LT1 (I think) Thorttle body, which was used with the 7730 computer, doesn't work with the stock Caddy computer because of the way it does idle control.

And I can't use the 7730 without alot of work, because I'm running the 4T60e.

EDIT: Red valve covers would look bad in my Gold Fiero anyway.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 06-01-2012).]

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Because it uses custom made tubing and an LT1 (I think) Thorttle body, which was used with the 7730 computer, doesn't work with the stock Caddy computer because of the way it does idle control. And I can't use the 7730 without alot of work, because I'm running the 4T60e.

IMO this manifold pipe look while well done is odd looking and as Matt has said is only good for a stick swap..
Jon Lagler did this setup to get away from the Idle Air Motor that could not be run when he went to the 7730 ECM.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Yes 2 different cars,

The shaker was Rockcrawls car - was sold, no idea where it now resides.

quote Originally posted by troyboy: what intake is this and why don't more people use it

This one originally belonged to Her86GT/PBJ and used the 7730 ECM - this route was taken for the planned turbo install - so basically it was a 1 off install. There are a few people that would like to run a turbo on the 4.9, however the ECM code is not available. The person that currently owns the engine (countach711) is unable to dump the PROM and has seemingly dissappeared from the forum (I have PM'ed him to try a dealership to see if they can dump the PROM, even offered to have him send it to me as I can dump it and make the code available). PBJ did post sometime back that he may have had a copy of the PROM and did email all the files to me, but unfortunatly it didn't contain the PROM file. Was able to talk with Rockcrawl as well and is would seem that he lost the file when he had a hard drive crash a few years ago.

...anyways, just rambling now...sorry...

with this info I would go for the shaker top as it covers most of the "not so pretty stuff" and the rest can be dressed up with paint and or chrome

more pictures of the shaker. I know I saw a thread recently on how he actually built it. very time consuming.

http://www.fieroaddiction.com/shaker.html

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Because it uses custom made tubing and an LT1 (I think) Thorttle body, which was used with the 7730 computer, doesn't work with the stock Caddy computer because of the way it does idle control. And I can't use the 7730 without alot of work, because I'm running the 4T60e. EDIT: Red valve covers would look bad in my Gold Fiero anyway.

Excuses!!! Ever hear of the 16197427? It's used in all 94-95 TBI trucks, it can handle the 4T60-E. It uses a distributor, has an IAC. And it's better supported then even the 7730. Use Tunerpro, Mask ID $0D. You can even just re-pin your connectors from your swap to the Red and Blue ones on the '427 ECM. Not sure about how different the distributors are however. To the best of my knowledge, it's never been done though.

It's a problem we deal with in all of our swaps. The front wheel drive engines are now being viewed from an angle that they never intended. Plus most modern engines are so busy on top that a beauty cover is almost mandatory. They can be cleaned up and beautified but it ain't easy or cheap. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. We love challenges and showing other Fiero owners our results.

quote Originally posted by mattwa: Because it uses custom made tubing and an LT1 (I think) Thorttle body, which was used with the 7730 computer, doesn't work with the stock Caddy computer because of the way it does idle control. And I can't use the 7730 without alot of work, because I'm running the 4T60e. EDIT: Red valve covers would look bad in my Gold Fiero anyway.

That throttle body came off of one of the older GM tuned port motors. Not sure if its an LT1 motor though. Its exactly the same as my sons old 87 IROC.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: Excuses!!! Ever hear of the 16197427? It's used in all 94-95 TBI trucks, it can handle the 4T60-E. It uses a distributor, has an IAC. And it's better supported then even the 7730. Use Tunerpro, Mask ID $0D. You can even just re-pin your connectors from your swap to the Red and Blue ones on the '427 ECM. Not sure about how different the distributors are however. To the best of my knowledge, it's never been done though.

Thanks for sharing a better option, but the absolutely only reason I would switch computers, would be if I wanted to Turbo my 4.9. I already looked into this, and I feel it's just not worth the time and effort to do so IMO.

For my 4.9 I am thinking about a Vortech V1 setup like Fierosound did with his V6 but this will also need a 7730



more here : http://www.fierosound.com/s...ger/supercharger.htm

quote Originally posted by falcon_ca: For my 4.9 I am thinking about a Vortech V1 setup like Fierosound did with his V6 but this will also need a 7730 more here : http://www.fierosound.com/s...ger/supercharger.htm

What no A/C? That's sacrilegious around these parts. The only boosted 4.9L that I can recall was PBJ's that was raced by his wife Becky. The car with the turbo 4.9L was running the 1/4 mile in the 12's. That's excellent for this engine. IMO they could have done better with an automatic but the Idle Air Motor on the 4.9L engines is a big impediment to using any ECM other than the one that was intended for it.
If a quality hacking job was done on the 4.9L ECM it should be possible to divide the fueling tables and move them right by a factor of two. This would allow the use of a 2 BAR MAP for timing advance and retard as appropriate. A while ago I asked Tunercat if they had a definition file for using a turbo on the 2.8L ECM's and they put one together for me'. All I had to do was to fill in all the timing table values and I started out using the TY/Sy table values (on the boost side) which ended up being pretty close.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: ...The only boosted 4.9L that I can recall was PBJ's that was raced by his wife Becky. ...IMO they could have done better with an automatic...

They were running a 4T60.

quote Originally posted by dratts: It's a problem we deal with in all of our swaps. The front wheel drive engines are now being viewed from an angle that they never intended. Plus most modern engines are so busy on top that a beauty cover is almost mandatory. They can be cleaned up and beautified but it ain't easy or cheap. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. We love challenges and showing other Fiero owners our results.

In my opinion, it depends on your definition of "modern". For example, the new Drive By Wire (DBW) throttle control eliminates the need for a separate IAC or ISM. The LS6 and subsequent LS engines use hot enough cam profiles that they have "internal EGR"--in that the cylinder is insufficiently scavenged at medium speeds and loads--thus eliminating the need for an external EGR system. As technology advances, engines will get "cleaner" in presentation.

A good presentation just comes down to attention to detail. If you just toss every hose over the top of the engine, it'll look like you just tossed every hose over the top of the engine. If you bend up custom steel tubing to replace nylon, reroute connections to stay out of sight, etc, then the attention to detail will make it look better. If you just throw it together, it will look just thrown together. If you obsess over where everything goes, then it will look like someone obsessed over where everything goes. Fundamentally, if everything has its own place and the layout looks well thought out, it will look good.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: Nice - but I think I would have ran the fuel lines along the side rail and then along the trunk wall just so that they are not running across the top of the engine.

Your solution might look neater but it puts the fuel lines in the hottest spot in the engine compartment; right next to the rear exhaust manifold and right over the head pipe and muffler. Heated fuel is not conducive to generating horsepower. The "over the top" routing locates the fuel lines in a much cooler area. While it may not be the best for appearance it should be the best for performance. I am using the same fuel line routing using # 6 braided SS fuel hoses hooked to #6 AN to 14mm x 1.5 (male) O ring port adapters on the fuel rail.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Your solution might look neater but it puts the fuel lines in the hottest spot in the engine compartment; right next to the rear exhaust manifold and right over the head pipe and muffler. Heated fuel is not conducive to generating horsepower. The "over the top" routing locates the fuel lines in a much cooler area. While it may not be the best for appearance it should be the best for performance. I am using the same fuel line routing using # 6 braided SS fuel hoses hooked to #6 AN to 14mm x 1.5 (male) O ring port adapters on the fuel rail.

We are talking about the 4.9 here, not exactly the best choice for 'performance'.

The engine bay gets fairly warm anyways, so are you really gaining anything? At some point you have to run the fuel line near a manifold be it the front or rear and depending how the exhaust is run, over top an exhaust pipe.

Not trying argue, the original post was making it look good and trying to hide some of the crap on top, and now you are saying you run to run stuff on top.

Use fuel lines from the early four cylinder that go up the left side of the engine compartment... that avoids routing them near manifolds

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: We are talking about the 4.9 here, not exactly the best choice for 'performance'.

Yea, even more so with a 2.73 FD 4T60e next to it.

But yea I would like to do a few things to clean up my 4.9 engine bay. Not sure how far I'll get though, because I'm wanting to move on to something better.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 06-04-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Will: Use fuel lines from the early four cylinder that go up the left side of the engine compartment... that avoids routing them near manifolds

Yes, but unless you use the Seville (late Deville) manifolds or get really creative with the early Deville ones to eliminate the cross over pipe – the fuel lines will still have to cross over top some exhaust work.

You know, if you look at the fuel lines on the picture I posted of my 4.9 swap, my fuel lines aren't near any exhaust pieces, from the tank to the fuel rail.

While the 4.9 is not a high revving engine it does have a lot of low end torque for driving around town. Perfect for getting away from a stoplight[And it has that V8 sound that some of us like.QUOTE]Originally posted by Mickey_Moose:


We are talking about the 4.9 here, not exactly the best choice for 'performance'.

The engine bay gets fairly warm anyways, so are you really gaining anything? At some point you have to run the fuel line near a manifold be it the front or rear and depending how the exhaust is run, over top an exhaust pipe.

Not trying argue, the original post was making it look good and trying to hide some of the crap on top, and now you are saying you run to run stuff on top. [/QUOTE]