My S2K steering rack is on the way, and the place I got the controller from said they've got the harness too, so hopefully should be able to get it this week as well.
Can't really do much of anything until I get both of those though.
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03:29 PM
May 25th, 2011
whitey078 Member
Posts: 39 From: austin, tx, usa Registered: May 2011
My S2K steering rack is on the way, and the place I got the controller from said they've got the harness too, so hopefully should be able to get it this week as well.
Can't really do much of anything until I get both of those though.
I'll second the "please make a how-to article on this" ...
Since I'm building a kit-car I'm going to have some considerably wider wheels in front, which will make parking a bear. If you can figure this one out. I imagine I'd look like a total idiot leaning my body into the steering wheel trying to park the thing. lol
Well I got the rack I bought today. Pics looked ok, and ad said "100% functional" but of course, it's not. The rack gear is actually bent, and even seems slightly twisted, a bit on the driver's side. Almost like there was a strong impact on the front driver's side. I haven't taken the thing apart to see how bad it is yet, and have contacted the seller to see what they want to do about it. Worst case I guess I'll just have to dispute it, hopefully get my money back, and buy a different one.
With that in mind, the measurement of the rack gear end to end is about 32". Trying to eyeball, sitting on the ground in front of my car, it looks like it might fit in pretty nice. I don't have a front end apart to get a good measurement on the Fiero rack, or to try mounting the S2K rack, though. And I still haven't gotten an answer about whether the guy that sold me the controller will also sell me the harness. He said he has it, and to let him know, but he hasn't told me how much he wants for it, and hasn't posted an auction for it or anything.
Well I got the rack I bought today. Pics looked ok, and ad said "100% functional" but of course, it's not. The rack gear is actually bent, and even seems slightly twisted, a bit on the driver's side. Almost like there was a strong impact on the front driver's side. I haven't taken the thing apart to see how bad it is yet, and have contacted the seller to see what they want to do about it. Worst case I guess I'll just have to dispute it, hopefully get my money back, and buy a different one.
With that in mind, the measurement of the rack gear end to end is about 32". Trying to eyeball, sitting on the ground in front of my car, it looks like it might fit in pretty nice. I don't have a front end apart to get a good measurement on the Fiero rack, or to try mounting the S2K rack, though. And I still haven't gotten an answer about whether the guy that sold me the controller will also sell me the harness. He said he has it, and to let him know, but he hasn't told me how much he wants for it, and hasn't posted an auction for it or anything.
Ohh man, that sucks about the rack being tweaked... Wait 48 hours for the seller to respond, then mile the claim. Once the seller see's your serious, he may be more inclided to resolve the situation quicker...
Your not planning on fitting this into your Fiero w/ the front crossmember in the car, are you? Maybe test fit it for clearance w/ other items; but as far as making brackets and final alignment, I would do it on a bench...
Originally posted by ALJR: Ohh man, that sucks about the rack being tweaked... Wait 48 hours for the seller to respond, then mile the claim. Once the seller see's your serious, he may be more inclided to resolve the situation quicker...
Your not planning on fitting this into your Fiero w/ the front crossmember in the car, are you? Maybe test fit it for clearance w/ other items; but as far as making brackets and final alignment, I would do it on a bench...
Well, he replied and I sent some pics of the damage. Will see what happens. I've also purchased another steering rack, which also appears to still have the tie rods, ends, and boots, all attached.
And no, I not planning on doing the work with the crossmember in the car. My 85 GT will be getting stripped down, and I will be using the cradle from it to mount up the LS4 + F40 for my 87 GT, and I'll use the crossmember to get the S2K rack mounted and working. And I will probably install the S2K EPS in the 85 GT first, and maybe later also do a swap on my 87 GT.
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12:50 PM
whitey078 Member
Posts: 39 From: austin, tx, usa Registered: May 2011
Well I got the rack I bought today. Pics looked ok, and ad said "100% functional" but of course, it's not. The rack gear is actually bent, and even seems slightly twisted, a bit on the driver's side. Almost like there was a strong impact on the front driver's side. I haven't taken the thing apart to see how bad it is yet, and have contacted the seller to see what they want to do about it. Worst case I guess I'll just have to dispute it, hopefully get my money back, and buy a different one.
With that in mind, the measurement of the rack gear end to end is about 32". Trying to eyeball, sitting on the ground in front of my car, it looks like it might fit in pretty nice. I don't have a front end apart to get a good measurement on the Fiero rack, or to try mounting the S2K rack, though. And I still haven't gotten an answer about whether the guy that sold me the controller will also sell me the harness. He said he has it, and to let him know, but he hasn't told me how much he wants for it, and hasn't posted an auction for it or anything.
As i said earlier in the thread, friend of mine has an s2k, so if you need anything in the way of pictures or whatever let me know. He also seems to have access to the honduh parts catalog so he can order stuff.
Not yet. Seller said he would file claim with UPS and refund my money, but I haven't gotten it yet. The other rack I ordered should be here today. It says "out for delivery" on the tracking page. Hopefully FedEx didn't damage it. And I haven't gotten any answer back about the harness, so I guess I'll have to look elsewhere. But I won't be able to do anything at all next week, and no electrical testing until I get a harness. So it will probably be a few weeks before I make any real progress. I'll try to get some pictures of the 'new' rack laid in position relative to the Fiero chassis, to give an idea of how well it will fit, soon. When I start to make some real progress on it, I'll make another thread specificially for swapping in the S2K system.
The other rack did show up today, and appears to be undamaged. So that's some good news at least. It also includes the tie rods, tie rod ends, and boots, which is also good, in case I need to use them. Too hot with bad air outside though, but will try to get some pics tomorrow.
Only bad thing is the packing peanuts. Why do people use peanuts for car parts?! There are little pieces of styrofoam all over the place now, inside the dust boots on the tie rod ends, stuck in all the little tiny crevices for mounts, motor, etc… Oh well, at least it's not broken.
Not yet. Seller said he would file claim with UPS and refund my money, but I haven't gotten it yet.
Don't forget you ONLY have 45 days to file a claim w/ PayPal; after that, your screwed... I would file it now anyway! Sounds like the seller does not plan on refunding your money unless UPS pays him. It is very hard to get UPS to pay for a claim and when they do, it taks several weeks for them to mail the check (they send the check to the seller, not the buyer)...
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
Only bad thing is the packing peanuts. Why do people use peanuts for car parts?! There are little pieces of styrofoam all over the place now, inside the dust boots on the tie rod ends, stuck in all the little tiny crevices for mounts, motor, etc… Oh well, at least it's not broken.
I freekin hate those peanuts! They end up everywhere; even when you throw them in the trash, they still seem to turn up somewhere
Originally posted by ALJR: Don't forget you ONLY have 45 days to file a claim w/ PayPal; after that, your screwed... I would file it now anyway! Sounds like the seller does not plan on refunding your money unless UPS pays him. It is very hard to get UPS to pay for a claim and when they do, it taks several weeks for them to mail the check (they send the check to the seller, not the buyer)...
I know, and I haven't heard from him in a couple days. If I don't see a refund in the next 10 days, I'll just escalate.
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09:27 AM
a_bartle Member
Posts: 358 From: Peck, MI USA Registered: Feb 2010
Looking forward to seeing the pics. It's cool to watch this project play out, and I hope everything falls into place. I'd love to add power steering to my GT someday if this all works out. I really appreciate your expertise and efforts with this project.....
Well, got the rack laid out in front of the car. You can see in the picture that the whole assembly is a bit too wide. The entire width of a Fiero, in fact. I didn't realize the S2K was so wide. I need to pull the tie rods/boots off of it, and get a Fiero rack physically next to it, to make better comparison. But, this is obviously going to take some work. I think it might be a little too wide.
As an aside, I also picked up a G8 brake master cylinder this week. It's pretty small compared to the Fiero master, but the mounting is the same, and I like the reservoir style better. The line connections are on the opposite side, and I don't know that I'd use it with the Fiero brake booster, which is incredibly huge, as well. Anyway, I started looking under the hood of my Cruze to look at the master cylinder layout in it, when I realized something…
It also has electric power steering, and the motor is on the rack! Unfortunately, it is pretty bulky, has an odd mounting angle for the input gear, and is set up to steer behind the front axles. And I have no idea how the electronics work on it, but they are probably heavily integrated into the CAN bus.
Well, got the rack laid out in front of the car. You can see in the picture that the whole assembly is a bit too wide. The entire width of a Fiero, in fact. I didn't realize the S2K was so wide. I need to pull the tie rods/boots off of it, and get a Fiero rack physically next to it, to make better comparison. But, this is obviously going to take some work. I think it might be a little too wide.
Holly cr@p thats looks wide! An easy way to check it to take a tape measure and under the car, measure from the left and right side lower control arm bolts. Then measure the length of the rack from the left to right inner tie-rod joints. if the fiero is larger, all is good. If the s2k rack is larger, we're SOL; as it would add allot of bup-steer. If the s2k rack is shorter, then its just a matter of using some spacers like they did on the vett racks...
Originally posted by ALJR: Holly cr@p thats looks wide! An easy way to check it to take a tape measure and under the car, measure from the left and right side lower control arm bolts. Then measure the length of the rack from the left to right inner tie-rod joints. if the fiero is larger, all is good. If the s2k rack is larger, we're SOL; as it would add allot of bup-steer. If the s2k rack is shorter, then its just a matter of using some spacers like they did on the vett racks...
Yeah. That car is lowered pretty well though, so getting up under it to take a measurement without a lift is a bit hard. I can't even get my low profile jack under the front end enough to reach a jack point.
I am pretty sure the S2K one is a bit larger. How much exactly, I'm not sure. It will require better measuring than the control arm bolts method. I won't be able to make any progress on it for a couple weeks anyway. I'll have to see what the difference in length is, and if the S2K is longer, if ther'es any way to shorten up the ends, or just rebuild it with a different rack gear inside. Might be a bit more difficult, but we'll see.
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09:50 PM
Jun 3rd, 2011
whitey078 Member
Posts: 39 From: austin, tx, usa Registered: May 2011
Yeah. That car is lowered pretty well though, so getting up under it to take a measurement without a lift is a bit hard. I can't even get my low profile jack under the front end enough to reach a jack point.
I am pretty sure the S2K one is a bit larger. How much exactly, I'm not sure. It will require better measuring than the control arm bolts method. I won't be able to make any progress on it for a couple weeks anyway. I'll have to see what the difference in length is, and if the S2K is longer, if ther'es any way to shorten up the ends, or just rebuild it with a different rack gear inside. Might be a bit more difficult, but we'll see.
I'm hoping this works out for you, being wider suits my +3 on each side nicely
Originally posted by ALJR: If the s2k rack is larger, we're SOL; as it would add allot of bup-steer.
I just had a thought about this. It's an electric power rack. Not sure if it is possible to do it directly off the stock set up, but any change in geometry that would cause bump steer, can be fixed electronically, with another somewhat simple module, that would cause the power steering to behave more like a force feedback controller, by applying force in the opposite direction. I haven't thought about how exactly it would work, and not break normal operation yet, but it's certainly a possibility.
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09:39 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I just had a thought about this. It's an electric power rack. Not sure if it is possible to do it directly off the stock set up, but any change in geometry that would cause bump steer, can be fixed electronically, with another somewhat simple module, that would cause the power steering to behave more like a force feedback controller, by applying force in the opposite direction. I haven't thought about how exactly it would work, and not break normal operation yet, but it's certainly a possibility.
This wouldn't work because bump steer changes the steering angles of the front wheels *WITHOUT* changing the steering angle of the steering wheel.
This wouldn't work because bump steer changes the steering angles of the front wheels *WITHOUT* changing the steering angle of the steering wheel.
AND the amount of bump-steer would change depending on how much the suspension is compressed. Also, the left/right sides of the rack are tied together, to correct bump-steer in this situation, you would want the left/right sides to turn opposit each other. As the bump steer would cause the front tires to either toe-in or toe-out...
Well, still no refund in my account, so opened a buyer protection complaint. Hopefully will have refund soon. In mean time, haven't had time to get into the garage and do much yet.
Post up some measurements of that S2K rack, I am sure someone has a stock Fiero rack on a bench to pull numbers from...
The S2K rack shaft end-to-end without any of the tie rod hardware is 32 inches. Complete assembly from S2K with all tie rod hardware is 57 inches. How long is the Fiero rack shaft end-to-end? I think it's a fair bit shorter than that, no?
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02:41 PM
Jun 19th, 2011
whitey078 Member
Posts: 39 From: austin, tx, usa Registered: May 2011
The S2K rack shaft end-to-end without any of the tie rod hardware is 32 inches. Complete assembly from S2K with all tie rod hardware is 57 inches. How long is the Fiero rack shaft end-to-end? I think it's a fair bit shorter than that, no?
My 88 rack is 34 inches from outside end of the boot to the other outside end of the boot. not sure where the rack ends inside, and since I'm widened the full length woudl be meaningless to you
My 88 rack is 34 inches from outside end of the boot to the other outside end of the boot. not sure where the rack ends inside, and since I'm widened the full length woudl be meaningless to you
Its been a while since I had my 88 rack out, but I think there is around 3" or so in the boot till you get to the end of the rack. So thats around 6" total; so the 88 Fiero fack is aprox. 28" end to end. So there is no way the S2k rack is going to work w/o modification...
Originally posted by ALJR: Its been a while since I had my 88 rack out, but I think there is around 3" or so in the boot till you get to the end of the rack. So thats around 6" total; so the 88 Fiero fack is aprox. 28" end to end. So there is no way the S2k rack is going to work w/o modification...
Switching racks is a modification in itself, so we are already headed down that slippery slope.
Got the front tub pulled out of my 85 GT today. Good thing I was already planning on pulling everything off it and doing a total resto, too. The bolt hole on the driver's side of the steering rack where the one end of the steering dampener bolts to, is broken, with the damper just hanging from the other end, albeit still horizontal. The distance between the input shaft and the driver's side mount on the S2K rack is a bit more than what it is on the Fiero rack, so the driver's side bracket on the crossmember will have to be moved a bit, it seems. And the passenger side mount on the S2K rack is adjustable, but the bracket on the crossmember will still have to be moved on that side as well.
These are just rough guesses from eyballing the Fiero rack mounted in the car, compared to the S2K rack sitting in the floor. Haven't got the two close enough together to center them up and see how things fit exactly, though.
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02:36 PM
Jun 20th, 2011
whitey078 Member
Posts: 39 From: austin, tx, usa Registered: May 2011
Dobey, do you need any pics or info from an s2k that's in one piece? I can get you anything that doesn't require any kind of modification, as a friend of mine has an s2k though, he'd not want me poking wires to test for signal, he'd be happy to measure stuff or take pics.
Originally posted by whitey078: Dobey, do you need any pics or info from an s2k that's in one piece? I can get you anything that doesn't require any kind of modification, as a friend of mine has an s2k though, he'd not want me poking wires to test for signal, he'd be happy to measure stuff or take pics.
No, I can't think of anything that having a pic of the rack installed in an S2K would be helpful for. There are two racks sitting in my floor (1 broken), and I have a controller. Knowing the pulse rates for the VSS and RPM for the S2K controller would be helpful, but you say he'd not want you poking that.
But I can figure out that info when I get to the point of hooking up the electronics. And I am not in a big rush to get this done, either.
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10:42 AM
PFF
System Bot
whitey078 Member
Posts: 39 From: austin, tx, usa Registered: May 2011
Very interesting! The only problem I can forsee would be the S2K rack has the electrical motor built-in the the rack. So I don't see how one could "section" the tube to make it shorter...
Originally posted by ALJR: Very interesting! The only problem I can forsee would be the S2K rack has the electrical motor built-in the the rack. So I don't see how one could "section" the tube to make it shorter...
The motor portion of the rack is probably the least inhibitive part to this process. The rack gear itself is a bigger issue, as there really isn't anywhere to just cut it down. I really need to get my 85 GT cleaned/stripped in my garage, and take both racks apart to see what really can be done, but you can't just cut 1.75" off each end of the S2K rack, drill and tap, and be done with it. And you can't cut it in the middle and weld it back together, either. I'll try to get another pic shortly, to show why.
Here are the pics. The passenger side is grooved like a worm gear, and this grooving extends almost to the end of the shaft, and on the driver side, the teeth which the input gear mesh with, extend nearly to the end of the shaft as well. So you can't just chop off the ends, and almost certainly cat lop off 3.5" in the middle and weld back together either.
On the F-body rack in the link (and on the Fiero rack), the passenger end is smooth, because there's nothing it interfaces with in the rack housing. On the S2K though, the electric motor meshes with the rack gear, and the grooves are required for the power steering to work. It /may/ be possible to use either a Fiero rack gear, or an F-body/Corvette/etc… rack gear inside the S2K housing, by cutting the correct grooving into it. This would mostly fix the length issue if so. The only problem then is keeping the end of shaft from being pulled back inside the housing at a full turn angle. Will open up the busted S2K rack soon and see what's doable on the inside.
Looks like the teeth porting is what the input gear (colum shaft) meshes with and the worm or spiral porting of the rack is what the electric motor rides on... How much of either end sticks out from the rack body at full turn?
Looks like the teeth porting is what the input gear (colum shaft) meshes with and the worm or spiral porting of the rack is what the electric motor rides on... How much of either end sticks out from the rack body at full turn?
I'll look later, but I'm pretty sure the passenger end (spiral geared end) is flush with the housing when I turn the shaft all the way to max left turn. That rack is the bent one, and the driver's side end of the rack doesn't go into the housing all the way during right turn, but I believe it's also supposed to be flush with the housing. And the good rack still has boots/tie rods on it, so I'll have to pull all that off before I can check on it.
And yes, the toothed portion is on the driver's side, with the spiral gear end traveling through the electric motor on the passenger side.
I'll look later, but I'm pretty sure the passenger end (spiral geared end) is flush with the housing when I turn the shaft all the way to max left turn. That rack is the bent one, and the driver's side end of the rack doesn't go into the housing all the way during right turn, but I believe it's also supposed to be flush with the housing. And the good rack still has boots/tie rods on it, so I'll have to pull all that off before I can check on it.
And yes, the toothed portion is on the driver's side, with the spiral gear end traveling through the electric motor on the passenger side.
When the time comes, you should also check the amount of travel between the two racks. The Fiero rack "may" not have as much travel as the S2k rack, or vice-versa...
The two sections of the S2K rack housing are held together with "tamperproof" torx bolts. So I had to go get some sockets that fit. Didn't get it pulled apart yet, though. And probably won't get back out into the garage tonight.
Verified how far into the housing the rack goes on the S2K though, and it looks like it goes all the way flush with the seal, which is about 1/4" inside the housing body itself. It might be possible to use the Fiero gear inside the S2K housing, depending on how much travel there is. Does anyone have a rack out and can check the travel? With pictures of each end with the rack turned full tilt in both directions would be ace.
