While looking for electric racks I found this and noticed it's similarity to the Fiero rack. For those who want to go the hydraulic route, I thought I'd throw out another hydraulic rack that may be better than those already documented. Someone would have to have both racks on the floor to compare them and see.
I believe the next gen Miata will be electric steer.
lol But your thread topic is "Electric power steering"
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12:10 PM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
I'm sure most next-gen cars will. It saves on fuel during EPA testing. (no clue if it does in real life) I wouldn't be surprised if it eases assembly of vehicles. (same reason Mazdaspeed's have top mounted intercoolers)
I also predict electric A/C to save on fuel. (with the side benefit of having the A/C start as you're approaching the car, in the same way as "keyless entry" will unlock the car.)
Not sure about electric a/c. It takes a few HP to run a compressor. Maybe if they install high voltage generators to the engine, but then you're back at square one.
Curious, manual steering works fine. I have found no issues with it. Are there any obvious reasons for upgrading, or are you guys just weaklings?
Originally posted by ALJR: I agree, we would pay a premium for the NSX unit just because its from an Acura NSX. However, since the NSX is a high performance car, the ratio :may" be more suitable for our needs. Not to mention (and don't quote me on this) it "may" reduce the amount of PS assist as the mph increase; which imo, would be great...
Sorry to quote you.
The NSX controller does in fact adjust for speed (see the link I posted before). One of the inputs on the controller is from speed sensor. At highway speed, it's basically a manual rack, since the electric motor doesn't really need to do anything, unless you jerk the steering wheel really hard in one direction.
Curious, manual steering works fine. I have found no issues with it. Are there any obvious reasons for upgrading, or are you guys just weaklings?
Ever try to quickly parallel park a 5spd Fiero w/ large tires? Ever take an off/on ramp at 60-70mph, then take one hand off the wheel to shift, then hit a bump/pothole that jerks the wheel a bit? Ever do low-speed evasive maneuvers w/ only one hand?
It would just make the car they much more enjoyable
Originally posted by Benja: Curious, manual steering works fine. I have found no issues with it. Are there any obvious reasons for upgrading, or are you guys just weaklings?
Why swap in a different engine? The one that came in it works fine. Why install projector hids? The factory sealed beams work fine. Why install a different stereo? The Delco works fine.
Is it just me or am I missing something? The NSX/S2000 rack has an EPS-ECU. If you look at the link I posted or dobey's, considering they are the same link. Have you (dobey) or anyone else actually looked at the EPS-ECU wiring diagram? For inputs it requires, VSS of unknown ppm and engine speed. It also requires on the output monitoring circuit the engine ECM.
Now I one for a challenge but doesn't anyone else see the wiring/sensor problem??
On top of that if you read the article: "The sensor inputs are then compared to determine how much power assist is required according to a preprogrammed "force map" in the control unit's memory." Wouldn't that force map need to be remapped when put into the fiero?
Before anyone says we don't need all the sensors plugged in: "The NSX electronic steering control unit is capable of self-diagnosing faults by monitoring the system's inputs and outputs, and the driving current of the electric motor. If a problem occurs, the control unit turns the system off by actuating a fail-safe relay in the power unit. This eliminates all power assist, causing the system to revert back to manual steering."
As far as I can tell the S2000's have the same rack, if so then we could avoid the NSX cost.
Also one other little issue (from the other link I posted....): "For the record, EPS computers rarely fail. So they rarely are sold used."
BTW did anyone else notice this: "Some other cars (MR2, EV1, Subaru, Fieros) have electro-hydraulic racks which simply replace the traditional pump with an electric one." Um....no....
Heh, I guess we did paste the same link. I guess I totally missed you posting it, with all the pictures in the thread.
OK. So I wrote a big long reply here, and then I went and found an NSX service manual which has a very interesting wiring diagram, with pinout; on nsxprime.com .
It seems like the EPS can be used totally independently of the ECM. I hope the S2000 is set up the same way.
And regarding the quote about the EHPS systems listing the Fiero; it was planned, and did exist, but did not make it into the line on the 1988 cars. Had the Fiero not been abruptly killed off, it almost certainly would have made it in to 88s later in the year, or the 90 at least.
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10:21 PM
Spoon Member
Posts: 3762 From: Sadsburyville, PA. 19369 / USA Registered: May 2004
------------------ Two yeast spent their entire life "about 2 days" discussing what the purpose of life could be and not once did they even come close to the fact that they were making champagne. Quoted by: Unknown
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10:21 PM
Spoon Member
Posts: 3762 From: Sadsburyville, PA. 19369 / USA Registered: May 2004
The MR2 pumps aren't exactly cheap. Plus you've still got fluid and lines, and a remote reservoir to deal with mounting somewhere and routing, not to mention the wiring as well. At that point it's probably just as easy to use a mechanical pump mounted on the engine, and run long lines to the front of the car.
While the full electric systems aren't necessarily cheap either right now, their cost will only come down, as more cars move towards using them, and more of them end up in the yards. And you don't have to worry about fluid leaks, mounting the reservoir in an appropriate place to be accessible for filling, and all that.
------------------ Two yeast spent their entire life "about 2 days" discussing what the purpose of life could be and not once did they even come close to the fact that they were making champagne. Quoted by: Unknown
Also, there is a power amplifier unit for the NSX/S2000 EPS system. So to be able to use it, one needs to get at least the rack, EPS controller, and power supply unit.
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10:27 PM
1fatcat Member
Posts: 1519 From: Zimmerman, Mn Registered: Dec 2010
For those thinking about it, not sure if you know, but lots of GM cars had EPS. Here is a list, looks like the list was made in 09, newer models likely use it too:
They require a 60 amp feed. They are programmable for different assist levels. Looks like they use high speed gmlan for diagnostics, that might be tricky to wire it up. It doesn't use many wires, just that some are gmlan. Stay away from torrent and equinox as they had something like 3 or 4 turns lock-to-lock. Not sure about the others, but I think they were more like 2.5 turns? Edit: I forgot, the ESP doesn't determine the lock-to-lock anyways, that's still in the rack.
[This message has been edited by 1fatcat (edited 05-06-2011).]
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10:42 PM
bnevets27 Member
Posts: 264 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2007
Thanks for looking into it dobey. I was just going off that link. How does it vary the amount of assist if it doesn't have the VSS input? I'm sure it can be feed the proper ppm with a dakota box....
And yeah I was aware that the fiero was planned to have EHPS. It was because in that quote he said the fiero's do have EHPS. I just figured it would be hard to have that info wrong.
I don’t think any one is saying use one EPS unit over another... This has never been dun before in a Fiero (at least not to my knowledge); we're all just tossing ideas around
Originally posted by bnevets27: Thanks for looking into it dobey. I was just going off that link. How does it vary the amount of assist if it doesn't have the VSS input? I'm sure it can be feed the proper ppm with a dakota box....
If it doesn't have a proper VSS signal, it will just turn on the EPS warning light, and not do anything. So the VSS is required. But you listed both VSS and engine speed (RPM). It doesn't use an RPM signal.
I'll be looking into this more in the next couple of weeks. It looks like the S2000 units might have the power amp built-in with the EPS controller, but I am not sure. The wiring is definitely different on them, so I need to see if I can find a service manual or something with the details on those as well.
I don’t think any one is saying use one EPS unit over another... This has never been dun before in a Fiero (at least not to my knowledge); we're all just tossing ideas around
Well, at least 1 person has used an aftermarket hot rod column kit it seems, as evidenced by the links provided on page 1. So that's at least encouraging.
Originally posted by 1fatcat: For those thinking about it, not sure if you know, but lots of GM cars had EPS. Here is a list, looks like the list was made in 09, newer models likely use it too:
Right. But all of the GM EPS units are integrated into the steering column. They are big and bulky, and everything is right there on the column. I'm sure one could be used, but it will require a lot of work to try and make one fit under a Fiero dash.
The nice thing about the NSX/S2000 units is that you don't have to swap your dash as well, and are pretty well self-contained it seems. From what I can tell, there is no need for a CAN/GM-LAN bus with them. The S2000 controller might be different in that respect, but when I find that info, I will post it. And the NSX controllers and amps are very hard to come by.
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08:16 AM
fierosound Member
Posts: 15148 From: Calgary, Canada Registered: Nov 1999
Right. But all of the GM EPS units are integrated into the steering column. They are big and bulky, and everything is right there on the column. I'm sure one could be used, but it will require a lot of work to try and make one fit under a Fiero dash.
Agreed. The electric assist, computer module, senser are all together in a big "lump" on OEM columns.
At least with the aftermarket Unisteer unit, the computer is a remotely placed box. Even then, it would be a challenge to put the electric assist on the Fiero's column. The end of the column is in the pedal box area (circled in red). It may be easier to mount it in the column under the spare wheel tub (circled in blue).
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 05-07-2011).]
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11:15 AM
qwikgta Member
Posts: 4659 From: Virginia Beach, VA Registered: Jan 2001
And regarding the quote about the EHPS systems listing the Fiero; it was planned, and did exist, but did not make it into the line on the 1988 cars. Had the Fiero not been abruptly killed off, it almost certainly would have made it in to 88s later in the year, or the 90 at least.
But the cool thing is that the mounting holes are still on the car, just plugged with black plugs from the factory.
Rob
[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 05-07-2011).]
Just add one of these (Fiero EHPS), see if it works, and then use as necessary.
Sounds good, I will head down to the local salvage yard and grab one. Crap, they don't have any... Guess I will walk into the local Pontiac dealer and order one. Dam, Pontiac is gone... Maybe I can order one from the GM parts website. Nothing found there either...
Maybe I will look in PFF mall section. Bingo! Found one; now I have to take out a second mortgage to buy it
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07:13 PM
May 10th, 2011
a_bartle Member
Posts: 358 From: Peck, MI USA Registered: Feb 2010
Thanks to all of you that are digging into this and doing the research. I don't know enough about the mechanics of the Fiero to be of any help, but I'd like to add eps to my GT if it works out to be something I can afford, as well as do the install myself. Someone mentioned a "custom built" electric power steering unit from Unisteer, I wonder if there is enough interest to get a group buy discount? Also, does anyone know the status of the unit that FastFieros is working on?
It took some looking but I located one for a reasonable price. Now I just hope that it works correctly during the bench testing effort.
Nelson
quote
Originally posted by ALJR:
Sounds good, I will head down to the local salvage yard and grab one. Crap, they don't have any... Guess I will walk into the local Pontiac dealer and order one. Dam, Pontiac is gone... Maybe I can order one from the GM parts website. Nothing found there either...
Maybe I will look in PFF mall section. Bingo! Found one; now I have to take out a second mortgage to buy it
Thanks to all of you that are digging into this and doing the research. I don't know enough about the mechanics of the Fiero to be of any help, but I'd like to add eps to my GT if it works out to be something I can afford, as well as do the install myself. Someone mentioned a "custom built" electric power steering unit from Unisteer, I wonder if there is enough interest to get a group buy discount? Also, does anyone know the status of the unit that FastFieros is working on?
I'm pretty sure that Lloyde is no longer working on it. Given that he's "selling off all Fieros and parts" and the mentioned link to his site hasn't been updated in a few years. Also the G6 unit almost certainly won't work with the stock Fiero dash, as already mentioned in this thread. You'd also have to swap to a dash with room for the unit, and probably some other hacks.
As far as I can tell, the best option is looking like the NSX/S2000 unit, though I will have to try and find some info on the wiring for the S2K version. And the NSX ones are $$$ beause they came out of an NSX.
Originally posted by hnthomps: It took some looking but I located one for a reasonable price. Now I just hope that it works correctly during the bench testing effort.
Nelson
I just bought an S2000 EPS controller, for a much more reasonable amount, I'm sure. I'll need to get a rack as well, and build a hardness for it to install in a Fiero, but with total cost of everything, should still be under $600. One of the great things about availability.
Anyone locate a PDF S2K manual? Looks like thers and AP1 and AP2 version (depending on the year)... Curious to see what the steering control box does and/or what it needs to function...
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07:43 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Anyone locate a PDF S2K manual? Looks like thers and AP1 and AP2 version (depending on the year)... Curious to see what the steering control box does and/or what it needs to function...
The S2K does also need a RPM signal to work. I also found a blog where someone converted an S2K to electric motor, and he had made up some thing to send fake RPM and VSS for the EPS unit. Didn't have any details on what the signals were or what components he used for it, though. It was from 2008, and last post on the blog was a fair while ago as well, so I haven't bothered asking him; and he probably doesn't remember anyway. Also, I'm not sure why he didn't use the VSS and add a sensor to get RPM on the electric motor, and buffer them correctly for the EPS. But it seems very doable in the Fiero.
The S2K doesn't need the external power amp though, like the NSX does, so it's just the EPS controller, steering rack, and harness, that are needed. And all 3 of those are probably had cheaper than any one piece of the NSX setup.
The S2K unit also has an output signal to tell the ECM to do something, when you turn the wheel all the way to lock, sitting still, with the engine running. I have no idea what exactly happens there, and given the DTC listing in the service manual, I'm not sure it will throw a code if nothing happens. If anyone has quick access to an 00-07 S2K to test what happens when the steering wheel is turned to lock with engine running, in neutral, and ebrake off, that would be awesome.
Also, the DTCs are stored in the EPS unit itself, and it is pretty much self-contained. There is a serial line connection for the Honda PGM diag tool to talk to the controller, but it also has a way to do the flashing code method, by shorting another wire to ground. I need to check if there are any conflicts in the OBD-II connector for the engine going into the car I'm going to put this in. If there aren't, I'll probably add both, and perhaps build a custom cable so I can talk to the EPS unit. If they do conflict, I'll probably just run the wire to short in a pair with ground, with a connector under the dash, so it's easy to slide a blade terminal or paper clip into and short the connection for checking the codes.
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09:12 PM
May 16th, 2011
fierosound Member
Posts: 15148 From: Calgary, Canada Registered: Nov 1999
Anyone measure the length of the S2K rack? It needs to be the same length at the inner tie-rod pivot to prevent bump-steer. A spacer might be needed like w/ the vett rack...
Anyone measure the length of the S2K rack? It needs to be the same length at the inner tie-rod pivot to prevent bump-steer. A spacer might be needed like w/ the vett rack...
I haven't found any measurements yet, but it will almost certainly need adapters like the Vette/F-body racks. The S2K is a tiny car.
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10:21 PM
May 17th, 2011
bnevets27 Member
Posts: 264 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2007
Originally posted by dobey: But you listed both VSS and engine speed (RPM). It doesn't use an RPM signal.
I really don't mean anything by it but I told you so
Shouldn't be a problem to buffer it like you said or use a dakota module. I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I hope it works well for you.
Does the S2K vary the amount of assist like the NSX version does?
[This message has been edited by bnevets27 (edited 05-17-2011).]
Originally posted by bnevets27: I really don't mean anything by it but I told you so
Shouldn't be a problem to buffer it like you said or use a dakota module. I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I hope it works well for you.
Does the S2K vary the amount of assist like the NSX version does?
No you didn't. :P We were talking about the NSX controller back there, and the NSX controller does NOT require RPM signal according to the service manual. However, the S2K controller does.
I don't know what the ratio is in the S2K exactly, but given the years of production relative to when the NSX started getting the variable ratio racks, I'm pretty sure it is variable in the S2K as well.
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08:25 AM
bnevets27 Member
Posts: 264 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2007
Ah, right. They couldn't have just made it easy and used the same controller.
Well, actually the S2K setup is easier, because the power amp and controller are the same unit. With the NSX setup, it actually has 2 VSS inputs, and the power amp is a separate unit. So there's something else to mount somewhere, and a bit more wiring.
Well I'm having a pretty hard time finding the right connectors for the controller, or a whole harness. Seems like everyone's selling controllers and racks, but no harnesses.
Have you (dobey) or anyone else actually looked at the EPS-ECU wiring diagram? For inputs it requires, VSS of unknown ppm and engine speed. It also requires on the output monitoring circuit the engine ECM.
