So you don't have another air temp sensor mounted between the air filter and turbo to check incoming air temps and verify the before TB sensor you're using is producing accurate readings?
What's the response rate of the temp sensor you are using?
Got any datalogs showing the temp readings reported by your sensor?
Were you using any kind of icebox to artificially cool down your water-to-ic coolant when you were getting these claimed 6-10 deg C rise in charge temps over ambient?
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 06-02-2011).]
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01:28 AM
Jun 3rd, 2011
AkursedX Member
Posts: 2890 From: Lackawanna NY Registered: Aug 2000
Just get the datalog man. Real world numbers are what matter most, we can speculate to no end. A datalog would make the facts very clear as to what is really happening here as it relates to a Fiero.
I really wish I could help get these numbers as I would like to know what my intercooler is really doing too. All I know is that after a hard run, the intake side of the i/c is hotter than the outlet side so I know the intercooler is doing something to help cool the charged air. I'm pretty confident that I am out-flowing my ic above 18psi (~48-49lbs/min at ~70* IAT temps) as gains at that point seem to diminsh rather quickly. But then again, according to ETS where I bought my intercooler, it's good for 450hp, so it makes sense that it's becoming a restricition.
Considering the power I have, I'm quite happy with my intercooler setup and would choose again if I had the chance. I'm just not a big water/air guy and that's just personal preference. There is always more than one way to get things done in a Fiero, as it's already been shown.
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
I was planning on installing an identical IC setup I built for AkursedX on my car to replace the smaller/modified GN intercooler that's on there now. I had already planned on adding pressure and temp sensor bungs to the inlet and outlet of the IC before I install it so I could get some real-world data. But circumstances have intervened and now I need to find (and buy) the wife another vehicle for daily transportation. So the IC upgrade will have to wait, therefore the test data will have to wait. In the meantime, you guys that have different intercooler ideas can get the test data logged and post it here or in its own thread.
So buy my Fiero and kill two birds with one stone!
------------------ '88 GT- 3800 Turbo 11.367@121.03mph FOR SALE GM Tuners
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08:00 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
So buy my Fiero and kill two birds with one stone!
Thanks for the offer and I would consider it, but the next car I'm buying for myself isn't going to be another Fiero. It is going to be a BUICK GRAND NATIONAL (planning GNX clone build, caged, 9-sec capable 3800 Series 2 Turbo 4L60-E, full interior and trim, etc).
-ryan
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 06-03-2011).]
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09:15 PM
AkursedX Member
Posts: 2890 From: Lackawanna NY Registered: Aug 2000
Thanks for the offer and I would consider it, but the next car I'm buying for myself isn't going to be another Fiero. It is going to be a BUICK GRAND NATIONAL (planning GNX clone build, caged, 9-sec capable 3800 Series 2 Turbo 4L60-E, full interior and trim, etc).
-ryan
Yeah yeah I know. My dad still asks me all the time if you have found a GN yet.
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09:19 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Okay I'm getting extremely close to being able to install my swap finally. I'm just waiting on axles and figuring out the turbo routing and intercooler.
Or would it be far inferior to air 2 air setups? I was thinking this would save me the trouble of mounting a heat exchanger in the rear of the car and I could mount it up front instead and just plumb some copper water lines up front? Looks comparing to the roots blower intercoolers that allow people to run high boost without knock?
What do you guys think?
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01:56 PM
nosrac Member
Posts: 3520 From: Euless, TX, US Registered: Jan 2005
Okay I'm getting extremely close to being able to install my swap finally. I'm just waiting on axles and figuring out the turbo routing and intercooler.
Or would it be far inferior to air 2 air setups? I was thinking this would save me the trouble of mounting a heat exchanger in the rear of the car and I could mount it up front instead and just plumb some copper water lines up front? Looks comparing to the roots blower intercoolers that allow people to run high boost without knock?
What do you guys think?
Get a S3 NA intake and aftermarket water to air intercooler and reservior.
Get a S3 NA intake and aftermarket water to air intercooler and reservior.
I actually have both already and am running into major issues finding room to mount the thing. My exhaust design uses the lower half of the trunk which I chopped out from the shelf down then I made the shelf the new trunk floor and planned to keep that top half of the trunk intact. I was going to try and mount the Ebay air/h20 IC Darkhorizon linked me too in between the motor and the firewall but it's not fitting like I'd hoped it would.
That's why I'm asking about this other solution, I have no idea if it's worth a crap or even worth considering. If it is I'd go this route since it seems a heck of a lot easier to mount and gives me the room I need. I don't even see where anyone is using it though.
[This message has been edited by Steel (edited 07-12-2011).]
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06:21 PM
nosrac Member
Posts: 3520 From: Euless, TX, US Registered: Jan 2005
I actually have both already and am running into major issues finding room to mount the thing. My exhaust design uses the lower half of the trunk which I chopped out from the shelf down then I made the shelf the new trunk floor and planned to keep that top half of the trunk intact. I was going to try and mount the Ebay air/h20 IC Darkhorizon linked me too in between the motor and the firewall but it's not fitting like I'd hoped it would. I'm also not sure how much airflow there would be there and the fins would be aimed at the motor and at the firewall with little no air flow.
That's why I'm asking about this other solution, I have no idea if it's worth a crap or even worth considering. If it is I'd go this route since it seems a heck of a lot easier to mount and gives me the room I need. I don't even see where anyone is using it though.
You could use the trunk like I did for the reservior. If I go Turbo I will use the trunk space kinda like FieroX but with my actual 1/2 trunk. I plan on getting that cool
Okay I'm getting extremely close to being able to install my swap finally. I'm just waiting on axles and figuring out the turbo routing and intercooler.
Or would it be far inferior to air 2 air setups? I was thinking this would save me the trouble of mounting a heat exchanger in the rear of the car and I could mount it up front instead and just plumb some copper water lines up front? Looks comparing to the roots blower intercoolers that allow people to run high boost without knock?
What do you guys think?
This WILL work but it is designed from ppl to make an easy conversion from a Supercharged setup to Turbo. It is NOT as optimal as a NA S3 intake and HV3 insert. You can also get a Stamatta intake and use a "standard" SII IC from ZZP.
Do you have any room in front of the cradle below the starter to mount it like where I put my air-to-air IC's?
-ryan
Not for the air/h2o IC i got on ebay, it would stick down nearly 2" lower than anything around it and my car is pretty low to begin with, don't see it ending well.
This WILL work but it is designed from ppl to make an easy conversion from a Supercharged setup to Turbo. It is NOT as optimal as a NA S3 intake and HV3 insert. You can also get a Stamatta intake and use a "standard" SII IC from ZZP.
Well it isn't that the intake itself is taking up a bunch of room, it's that style of IC I was interested in and whether it would be anygood or if I need to keep working on a setup like Darth's or DH's. My wanting to keep the top half of the trunk (and not mount anything in it) and run and exhaust seems to be working against me.
If this style of IC would work well it would solve pretty much all of my limited space issues.
If it will work I like your idea better, I can get an upper intake made like that for almost free.. not to mention it would look better than a converted SC housing and could mount it so the inlet is on the TB is on the passenger side.
[This message has been edited by Steel (edited 07-12-2011).]
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08:01 PM
Jul 13th, 2011
nosrac Member
Posts: 3520 From: Euless, TX, US Registered: Jan 2005
Well it isn't that the intake itself is taking up a bunch of room, it's that style of IC I was interested in and whether it would be anygood or if I need to keep working on a setup like Darth's or DH's. My wanting to keep the top half of the trunk (and not mount anything in it) and run and exhaust seems to be working against me.
If this style of IC would work well it would solve pretty much all of my limited space issues.
If it will work I like your idea better, I can get an upper intake made like that for almost free.. not to mention it would look better than a converted SC housing and could mount it so the inlet is on the TB is on the passenger side.
If you are making they then I'll buy 2....seriously.
All you would then need is a standard S2 IC and reservior like BMW GURU or wbody store. It is soo much easier with a reservior. Then mount a HE and pump up front....and done.
Okay I decided to quit worrying about the trunk, I'm going to mount a liquid / air IC and a reservoir in whats left of the trunk and run tubing the length of the car and mount the heat exchanger up front. Just need a 12v pump with strong head pressure that won't be damaged by heat.
I'll probably post back with a bunch of questions and looking for some suggestions on routing soon.
[This message has been edited by Steel (edited 07-13-2011).]
What's a good radiator/heat exchanger that I can mount up front? I remember one thread with a mini van one that was installed but I can't find the thread or who posted it now.
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02:51 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
What's a good radiator/heat exchanger that I can mount up front? I remember one thread with a mini van one that was installed but I can't find the thread or who posted it now.
I just found one I liked, that the yard I went to had... You dont need anything too fancy.
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06:29 PM
Aug 10th, 2011
nosrac Member
Posts: 3520 From: Euless, TX, US Registered: Jan 2005
I purchased a Stattama UIM as I contemplate my next move. My initial plan is to just change power adder, add a Turbo, BOV, and Wastegate and keep everything else the same. I am pretty sure I can run an 11.5 right now with some DR and <90* weather. So, anything above 11's will be a failure IMO if I go turbo. Hopefuly I can run 16psi on 93 octane and run a 10.8 but it may take some unleaded 109 and 20psi....
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02:36 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Is there flow #'s or something for that style intake? I still need to figure out the passenger side intake setup, it's either get that stattama style made or run the fbody intake like akursed i guess
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11:40 PM
nosrac Member
Posts: 3520 From: Euless, TX, US Registered: Jan 2005
Is there flow #'s or something for that style intake? I still need to figure out the passenger side intake setup, it's either get that stattama style made or run the fbody intake like akursed i guess
I have read on clubGP that it has better results than a M90 block off. Not sure how it stacks up with the L26 UIM or Camaro intake but my GUESS is that it is good enough.
IMO, the air flow of the Stattama UIM is directed directly into intake, unlike M90 + block off plate and this should result in quicker spool and more HP.
The M90 is designed to push air down but when you add a turbo with a M90 block off the air flow direction changes thus making it not optimal for a turbo setup. It creates turbulent air bouncing around in the intake and is hs been proven not to be optimal. However, the Stattama UIM allows a smooth flowing air path directly through the intake and has been proven many times on GP's with 500whp on pump gas.
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I just thought of an easy test anyone can do to help them understand how air dams work. Drive down the highway and open your window. Next, stick your hand out the window at a perpendicular angle to the wind flow. What happens? Doesn't some of that air crash against your hand and blow right into the car and onto you?
The intercooler placement in front of the cradle with or without an air dam is not worth the effort or return. I just completed my test on the way home to swap out the damaged engine. It had no intercooler. At 70 mph on an 80 deg day the intake air temp was as follows in the top left corner at steady cruise.
The return trip with replacement engine in place and an intercooler the size of the one posted on page one against the firewall (an even worse location) not only located in front of the cradle but hanging down into the air stream, too low, (so low it clipped whatever dead animal I rolled over at 72 mph) in what must have been around 70 deg ambient temps definately cooler than the first test and the results were only marginally better, probably worse when you account for the added restriction to air flow. The intercooler hangs about 3" lower than the car. With such a paultry return for the effort I'm going to take it off right away before it gets ripped off. That's barely 1% expected performance gain, not worth it.
I'll look into a bullet style air to water intercooler that will fit and work better in that location.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-11-2011).]
On second thought, the air dam effect is exactly why this is a useless location for an intercooler, because there is a stock air dam up front preventing the theoretical air that the air dam for the intercooler acts on from ever getting their. My ambient air temps are guestimates and there could have been that much of a difference in ambient temps on those days suggesting the intercooler did nothing at all and the actual difference in the datalogs is from the difference in ambient temps on those days.
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09:43 AM
nosrac Member
Posts: 3520 From: Euless, TX, US Registered: Jan 2005
On second thought, the air dam effect is exactly why this is a useless location for an intercooler, because there is a stock air dam up front preventing the theoretical air that the air dam for the intercooler acts on from ever getting their. My ambient air temps are guestimates and there could have been that much of a difference in ambient temps on those days suggesting the intercooler did nothing at all and the actual difference in the datalogs is from the difference in ambient temps on those days.
Good test. I guess Air/Water is the way to go. However, with the IC placed "in the airstram" like that could it be that the IC sux and not the location? Could it be Heatsoaking from the proxmiety to the exhaust?
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11:14 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Got a pretty good deal on it and one mans' junk is another mans' treasure.
If FieroX can run a 10.2 on a "junk" intake then just call me Fred Sanford and hand me that 10 sec timeslip
... for reference I had the same trap speeds as him on 10psi less boost.....
Also, changing upper intakes, and talking about "flow and turbulance" is retarded in a turbo setup... When you make boost, you have pressure... shape and size is pointless at that point.
The L36 intakes are MUCH better because of smooth long intake runners... It works significantly better.
Well since I need a passenger side UIM I've decided to use the fbody one. No idea what actually needs to be done to run it, but I'll look into that tomorrow. Found a thread Matt m made about it but none of the pictures work anymore.
Originally posted by nosrac: However, with the IC placed "in the airstram" like that could it be that the IC sux and not the location? Could it be Heatsoaking from the proxmiety to the exhaust?
Not a chance, the same intercooler was mounted up front and pipes ran inside the rocker skirts to the back of the car as can be seen in my build thread and intake temps dropped under boost by about 100 deg from 212 at 7 psi. This is purely the location.
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04:56 AM
nosrac Member
Posts: 3520 From: Euless, TX, US Registered: Jan 2005
... for reference I had the same trap speeds as him on 10psi less boost.....
Also, changing upper intakes, and talking about "flow and turbulance" is retarded in a turbo setup... When you make boost, you have pressure... shape and size is pointless at that point.
The L36 intakes are MUCH better because of smooth long intake runners... It works significantly better.
Don't you guys have diffent cams, turbos? I would think that would have more of an effect on psi @ a certain boost level than the UIM. If air flow and turbelence are retarded in turbo systems then why isn't runner length irrevelant? Runner length concepts directly apply specifically to NA setups or Could it be the same air flow rules apply to turbo setups but on a different scale?
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09:55 AM
nosrac Member
Posts: 3520 From: Euless, TX, US Registered: Jan 2005
Not a chance, the same intercooler was mounted up front and pipes ran inside the rocker skirts to the back of the car as can be seen in my build thread and intake temps dropped under boost by about 100 deg from 212 at 7 psi. This is purely the location.
Good to know. Where is that build thread of yours.
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09:56 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Also, changing upper intakes, and talking about "flow and turbulance" is retarded in a turbo setup... When you make boost, you have pressure... shape and size is pointless at that point.
The L36 intakes are MUCH better because of smooth long intake runners... It works significantly better.
Lol... Nice to know we can always count on you for conflicting reasoning!
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-12-2011).]
Lol... Nice to know we can always count on you for conflicting reasoning!
Yea, conflicting only because you cant read.
The fact is in BOOST it doesnt matter OUT OF BOOST it does.... I was pretty sure this was just inferred so I didnt mention it in my short post above...
My GTP was a test mule to see what a NA intake actually did vs a supercharger case... it showed that with a HV3 insert you could make a bit more power peak due to a short runner design. Turbulence is an issue with any and all of these intakes, so you are not going to gain anything there.
quote
Don't you guys have diffent cams, turbos? I would think that would have more of an effect on psi @ a certain boost level than the UIM. If air flow and turbelence are retarded in turbo systems then why isn't runner length irrevelant? Runner length concepts directly apply specifically to NA setups or Could it be the same air flow rules apply to turbo setups but on a different scale?
Different cams yes, I have a ST2 and stock heads, he has a bigger one, as well as ported heads, as well as a built bottom end.
His turbo is more efficient at 15psi AND 26psi than mine is... I just have a old T67.
I wonder which flows better.. ported 3800 fbody intake or the custom.
Hmmm
I'm runnin the Fbody intake over 500hp, other guys in this thread run the L26 over 500hp. Just choose which side you want the intake on and go with it. Its too easy to make power with either intake to worry about such small differences.
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11:03 PM
Aug 13th, 2011
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
The fact is in BOOST it doesnt matter OUT OF BOOST it does.... I was pretty sure this was just inferred so I didnt mention it in my short post above...
My GTP was a test mule to see what a NA intake actually did vs a supercharger case... it showed that with a HV3 insert you could make a bit more power peak due to a short runner design. Turbulence is an issue with any and all of these intakes, so you are not going to gain anything there.
There was no discussion of off-boost performance. Go look up the definition of infer.
Turbulence is more important on boost than it is off boost, especially in the head and port design, because the Reynolds number is higher for the denser gas flow with higher pressure difference.
